speedheat Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Here is a list of pace bowlers in the last 50 years who have taken 200 wickets or more .... listed by best bowling averages. I don't see a single medium-paced swing bowler there. All of them were either fast or fast-medium. A high percentage got steep bounce. And....about half the bowlers were seam bowlers and not swing bowlers. Another important point is that.... India plays more than 60% of test matches in Asia where conventional swing is not available. Pacers have to rely on reverse swing which is more effective at high pace. This is why Asian teams, more than the other ones, require quick bowlers. Objective should be to pick pacers who combine skills + pace or bounce if we want to find international quality pace bowlers with regularity. Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68 46.7 22 4 J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108 20.97 2.47 50.8 7 0 CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99 2.30 54.5 22 3 GD McGrath (AUS) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9 29 3 AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83 47.0 20 3 Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63 50.8 36 9 DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2016 85 156 17286 9303 417 7/51 11/60 22.30 3.22 41.4 26 5 Imran Khan (PAK) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2.54 53.7 23 6 SM Pollock (SA) 1995-2008 108 202 24353 9733 421 7/87 10/147 23.11 2.39 57.8 16 1 Waqar Younis (PAK) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 Wasim Akram (PAK) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9 13 2 DK Lillee (AUS) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92 2.75 52.0 23 7 CA Walsh (WI) 1984-2001 132 242 30019 12688 519 7/37 13/55 24.44 2.53 57.8 22 3 RGD Willis (ENG) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92 25.20 2.83 53.4 16 0 AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61 2.78 55.1 11 2 JN Gillespie (AUS) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26.13 2.85 54.9 8 0 JR Thomson (AUS) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105 28.00 3.18 52.6 8 0 HH Streak (ZIM) 1993-2005 65 102 13559 6079 216 6/73 9/72 28.14 2.69 62.7 7 0 MG Hughes (AUS) 1985-1994 53 97 12285 6017 212 8/87 13/217 28.38 2.93 57.9 7 1 D Gough (ENG) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39 3.30 51.6 9 0 IT Botham (ENG) 1977-1992 102 168 21815 10878 383 8/34 13/106 28.40 2.99 56.9 27 4 MG Johnson (AUS) 2007-2015 73 140 16001 8891 313 8/61 12/127 28.40 3.33 51.1 12 3 JM Anderson (ENG) 2003-2016 122 228 26840 13310 467 7/43 11/71 28.50 2.97 57.4 21 3 SCJ Broad (ENG) 2007-2016 102 186 21000 10503 368 8/15 11/121 28.54 3.00 57.0 15 2 CJ McDermott (AUS) 1984-1996 71 124 16586 8332 291 8/97 11/157 28.63 3.01 56.9 14 2 M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82 3.23 53.4 18 4 M Morkel (SA) 2006-2017 74 136 14175 7392 253 6/23 8/196 29.21 3.12 56.0 6 0 CL Cairns (NZ) 1989-2004 62 104 11698 6410 218 7/27 10/100 29.40 3.28 53.6 13 1 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=01+jAN+1967;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling Clap clap clap nice post, those knuckle heads might get their answers now if only they don't turn out to be pure haters.[emoji106] "Sote huve ko jagana asan hai, but sone ki acting karne waloko jagana namunkin hai bro" express bowling and tweaker 2
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 15 minutes ago, sarchasm said: These malcontents here love nothing more than their ridiculous binaries. As if fans should expect either pace or control and movement, but never both. We need some posts from you on this topic too. : ) tweaker 1
Texan Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 42 minutes ago, express bowling said: Here is a list of pace bowlers in the last 50 years who have taken 200 wickets or more .... listed by best bowling averages. I don't see a single medium-paced swing bowler there. All of them were either fast or fast-medium. A high percentage got steep bounce. And....about half the bowlers were seam bowlers and not swing bowlers. Another important point is that.... India plays more than 60% of test matches in Asia where conventional swing is not available. Pacers have to rely on reverse swing which is more effective at high pace. This is why Asian teams, more than the other ones, require quick bowlers. Objective should be to pick pacers who combine skills + pace or bounce if we want to find international quality pace bowlers with regularity. Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68 46.7 22 4 J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108 20.97 2.47 50.8 7 0 CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 98 179 22103 8501 405 8/45 11/84 20.99 2.30 54.5 22 3 GD McGrath (AUS) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9 29 3 AA Donald (SA) 1992-2002 72 129 15519 7344 330 8/71 12/139 22.25 2.83 47.0 20 3 Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) 1973-1990 86 150 21918 9611 431 9/52 15/123 22.29 2.63 50.8 36 9 DW Steyn (SA) 2004-2016 85 156 17286 9303 417 7/51 11/60 22.30 3.22 41.4 26 5 Imran Khan (PAK) 1971-1992 88 142 19458 8258 362 8/58 14/116 22.81 2.54 53.7 23 6 SM Pollock (SA) 1995-2008 108 202 24353 9733 421 7/87 10/147 23.11 2.39 57.8 16 1 Waqar Younis (PAK) 1989-2003 87 154 16224 8788 373 7/76 13/135 23.56 3.25 43.4 22 5 Wasim Akram (PAK) 1985-2002 104 181 22627 9779 414 7/119 11/110 23.62 2.59 54.6 25 5 MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9 13 2 DK Lillee (AUS) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92 2.75 52.0 23 7 CA Walsh (WI) 1984-2001 132 242 30019 12688 519 7/37 13/55 24.44 2.53 57.8 22 3 RGD Willis (ENG) 1971-1984 90 165 17357 8190 325 8/43 9/92 25.20 2.83 53.4 16 0 AME Roberts (WI) 1974-1983 47 90 11135 5174 202 7/54 12/121 25.61 2.78 55.1 11 2 JN Gillespie (AUS) 1996-2006 71 137 14234 6770 259 7/37 9/80 26.13 2.85 54.9 8 0 JR Thomson (AUS) 1972-1985 51 90 10535 5601 200 6/46 9/105 28.00 3.18 52.6 8 0 HH Streak (ZIM) 1993-2005 65 102 13559 6079 216 6/73 9/72 28.14 2.69 62.7 7 0 MG Hughes (AUS) 1985-1994 53 97 12285 6017 212 8/87 13/217 28.38 2.93 57.9 7 1 D Gough (ENG) 1994-2003 58 95 11821 6503 229 6/42 9/92 28.39 3.30 51.6 9 0 IT Botham (ENG) 1977-1992 102 168 21815 10878 383 8/34 13/106 28.40 2.99 56.9 27 4 MG Johnson (AUS) 2007-2015 73 140 16001 8891 313 8/61 12/127 28.40 3.33 51.1 12 3 JM Anderson (ENG) 2003-2016 122 228 26840 13310 467 7/43 11/71 28.50 2.97 57.4 21 3 SCJ Broad (ENG) 2007-2016 102 186 21000 10503 368 8/15 11/121 28.54 3.00 57.0 15 2 CJ McDermott (AUS) 1984-1996 71 124 16586 8332 291 8/97 11/157 28.63 3.01 56.9 14 2 M Ntini (SA) 1998-2009 101 190 20834 11242 390 7/37 13/132 28.82 3.23 53.4 18 4 M Morkel (SA) 2006-2017 74 136 14175 7392 253 6/23 8/196 29.21 3.12 56.0 6 0 CL Cairns (NZ) 1989-2004 62 104 11698 6410 218 7/27 10/100 29.40 3.28 53.6 13 1 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?bowling_pacespin=1;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=wickets;spanmin1=01+jAN+1967;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling We are not talking about developing bowlers here who will learn this first and that later. We are discussing pacers who are playing or about to play international cricket and should have both decent pace and decent skills. So, it is important to stress on BOTH pace / bounce and swing / seam. I am not happy with this either this or that approach. As I showcased to you by the above data... just swing without pace does not produce great bowlers. Pakistan themselves never pick medium-paced swing bowlers by choice. Also, there are lots of top pacers like McGrath, Ambrose, Holding, Garner etc. who rarely swung the ball but still got loads of wickets. Not all pacers are swing bowlers. Who told you that these guys got wickets because of their pace and bounce alone? Perhaps only Joel Garner and Curtly Amrbose got wickets due to mainly pace and bounce. Many of these bowlers are known exponents of swing and seam bowling. Even greats like Akram suggest concentrating on swing before working up pace and that in order to generate swing, one must reduce pace slightly. I would much rather take Akram's word on this topic.
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Texan said: Who told you that these guys got wickets because of their pace and bounce alone? Perhaps only Joel Garner and Curtly Amrbose got wickets due to mainly pace and bounce. Many of these bowlers are known exponents of swing and seam bowling. Even greats like Akram suggest concentrating on swing before working up pace and that in order to generate swing, one must reduce pace slightly. I would much rather take Akram's word on this topic. I have said it multiple times before and I will say it once more for the last time. I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT ONLY PACE AND BOUNCE I AM TALKING ABOUT COMBINING SKILLS WITH PACE AND /OR BOUNCE for the purpose of becoming a top international pacer. That is what almost all these top pacers did. It is NOT an "either / or " approach. Only pace won't work and only swing at medium pace won't work. My quote from the post to which you replied. " Objective should be to pick pacers who combine skills + pace or bounce if we want to find international quality pace bowlers with regularity. " Edited May 10, 2017 by express bowling Mosher and tweaker 2
Texan Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, MultiB48 said: my guess is akram was talking slower pace relative to very high pace ,that is swinging it around mid to high 130s with the new ball rather than attempting to bowl 150k,not 120 k swing Yes, generally speaking Akram himself was probably between 130-140. 120 I agree might be a bit on the slow side. We don't have any 150 bowler anyway. Would have been nice to have, but would take a swing/seam bowler with accuracy at 130-140.
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Texan said: Yes, generally speaking Akram himself was probably between 130-140. 120 I agree might be a bit on the slow side. We don't have any 150 bowler anyway. Would have been nice to have, but would take a swing/seam bowler with accuracy at 130-140. A 132 k to 142 k pacer is definitely acceptable if he is highly skilled. BUT he must have the ability to hit the deck hard and get bounce and seam movement when the ball is not swinging. Akram himself had this quality...... he bowled fast-medium when there was swing on offer but could suddenly change gear and bowl genuinely quick spells when the ball stopped swinging conventionally. Also, ability to bowl good surprise bouncers prevent batsmen from coming on the front foot with conviction. and improve the potency of swing bowlers. This is a weapon I always look for even in a swing bowler. Fast-medium swing bowlers like Kapil and Hadlee had very good bouncers. Akram had a devastatingly good bouncer. If we find a pacer who can bowl 135 k to 142 k with very high skills , has a good bouncer and deck-hitting ability to get bounce and seam movement when needed.... I am perfectly ok with him and would prefer him over a 140 k to 150 k totally unskilled pacer. A skilled 140 k to 150 k pacer would obviously be the ideal choice. Edited May 10, 2017 by express bowling Mosher, Bleed-Blue and speedheat 3
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) One thing that needs to be added to this topic is that pace and / or bounce with deck hitting ability gives a pacer access to a much wider range of skills which floaty medium pacers don't have access to -- The wicket-taking yorker when the batsman is not trying to hit at all costs -- A medium-pacer can bowl the defensive yorker too, which may be a run-saving ball but the wicket-taking yorker is usually bowled by those who have pace in the air and can bowl it accurately with late dip. A really good bouncer , which combines pace, bounce and accuracy. A delivery which has been the hall-mark of all top test teams across eras. Using different levels of bounce for similar good length, off-stump stock deliveries -- This delivery has been a big wicket-taker across eras. Say, two deliveries are bowled, good length, off-stump which bounce normally. The third delivery is pitched at a similar line and length but is bowled with more effort and it bounces a little higher than expected, hits the top of the bat and a catch goes to the slips as the batsman is deceived. This delivery is the hall-mark of pacers who can hit the deck hard and are not floaty medium pacers. A stump directed really quick delivery, preferably with late dipping reverse swing -- This delivery often leads to partnership breaking on flat tracks where no other skill is working and there is no conventional swing or seam movement or bounce on offer which happens quite frequently on Indian tracks in test matches. Edited May 10, 2017 by express bowling speedheat, tweaker and Mosher 3
CG Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Firstly Fans here don't understand it's not easy to find a bowler who has everything .You see worldover selectors look for pace and movement ,height in a young prospect.Its up to him to improve upon his deficiencies.
Ultimate_Game Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 5 hours ago, express bowling said: Why is it pace vs control and movement ? We need pacers who combine pace with control and movement . Like Shami and Srinath. Like Kapil between 1978 to 1985. Like Umesh in the last 2 test series. That was an example to show what takes higher priority, i.e. movement & control over speed and nothing else. We play the best bowlers. Period. The aim of bowling and bowlers is taking wkts and conceding as few runs as possible. If a bowler can do so consistently, he deserves to be picked. beetle and Straight Drive 2
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Shami back to full pace. Has bowled 146 k and 144 k today. Had bowled a couple at 145 k last game. Bowling quick bouncers and yorkers. It may mean that he is fully fit and that is good news. Bleed-Blue, Forever Indian, speedheat and 1 other 4
mishra Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 5 hours ago, CG said: Firstly Fans here don't understand it's not easy to find a bowler who has everything .You see worldover selectors look for pace and movement ,height in a young prospect.Its up to him to improve upon his deficiencies. And thats where a coach is needed at domestic level. Who can just stand behind the bowler, Watch every delivery in nets, Tell him this was in swinger, that was out swinger, How to do various variations. how to hold the ball. Training for variations doesnt mean sacrifice speed. Its just that his natural which is generally in swinger balls will be pacier. speedheat 1
speedheat Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Shami finally is coming into some sort of rhythm just before ct, bowled really well so far and clocked 146kph too And that is a [emoji111] [emoji75] [emoji123] good news express bowling and Forever Indian 2
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 Sangwan getting some left-hander's inswing. Picks up Samson with a shortish delivery that bounced extra.
vishalvirsingh Posted May 10, 2017 Author Posted May 10, 2017 Thampi is Yorker guru. Yorkers at 141k.. Hats off. express bowling 1
speedheat Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 What an yorker to ayer by thampi. 142k cleaned him express bowling and maniac 2
express bowling Posted May 10, 2017 Posted May 10, 2017 (edited) Really enjoyed Thampi's yorker to dismiss Iyer. It dipped in late at 142 k. His spell at the end was good. Bowled quite a few accurate inswinging yorkers. Speeds of 137 k to 143 k for faster deliveries. But he needs to become more accurate in the early overs. Should bowl around the off stump regularly instead of bowling a couple on the leg stump. Edited May 10, 2017 by express bowling speedheat and Mosher 2
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