Sir Richard Hadlee on Pakistani's reverse swing

[Vilander]

8 minutes ago, kira said:

He's not a green padosi, he has also pissed off the green padosis a lot which is why he was banned from the green ghetto too, he's funny when he trolls the west padosis but tries a bit too hard on this forum 

Awwww so cute..poor guy getting owned here. 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

They were good, especially Wasim, but there's no doubt their numbers were inflated due to lot of "extra curricular" activities. That's the reason you see such a steep drop-off between Pak pace bowlers over the last 10-15 years. Earlier Pak bowler could rely on ball tampering and dodgy ball management techniques but they can't anymore and that's why they are struggling to unearth decent pacers at intl level.

 

The ball tampering practice started in the days of Sarfraz Nawaz, enhanced by Imran and passed on to Wasim & Waqar and so on. Since the days ICC started acting tough on these practices and started monitoring the ball, things changed for Pak pacers. Had it been the old days their golden boy Aamir would be picking wkts by the bagful but he's struggling and against everyone to pick up wkts coz now he can't rely on ball tampering like earlier generation used to.

I think the current Pakistani team isn't as good at ball management and the biggest reason their performance has dropped off is because batsmen are a lot more familiar with reverse swing. 
The thing i learnt from watching those programs with Akram (they are on youtube), is that the little things make a helluva difference and for some reason the Pakistani bowlers these days, don't do those little things - things like using the crease, hiding the ball, running behind the umpire and then jumping out, etc. 
My view is, fast bowling is as much mental skill as physical and the transition from Wasim-Waqar era to the next one did not happen, because Akhtar was injured so often, that the link broke. 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I think the current Pakistani team isn't as good at ball management and the biggest reason their performance has dropped off is because batsmen are a lot more familiar with reverse swing. 
The thing i learnt from watching those programs with Akram (they are on youtube), is that the little things make a helluva difference and for some reason the Pakistani bowlers these days, don't do those little things - things like using the crease, hiding the ball, running behind the umpire and then jumping out, etc. 
My view is, fast bowling is as much mental skill as physical and the transition from Wasim-Waqar era to the next one did not happen, because Akhtar was injured so often, that the link broke. 

 

IMO one of the biggest reason for the drop off was also the fact that they couldn't "manage" the ball the way they used to. It definitely made a huge difference. Now the bowlers have to solely depend on their skill with no additional help and are found out.

[Vilander]

4 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

IMO one of the biggest reason for the drop off was also the fact that they couldn't "manage" the ball the way they used to. It definitely made a huge difference. Now the bowlers have to solely depend on their skill with no additional help and are found out.

yup thats the word, manage. see how mulog completely stays off the management topics i had discussed at length in my posts..hehe.

@Muloghonto how do you like the ball management top 5 steps from pakistani school of ball management from my previous posts.

Edited May 12, 2017 by Vilander

[putrevus]

One of the main reason Pakistanis especially Imran Khan got so much success with reverse swing batsmen were totally unaware of that concept.

 Look at Vishy shouldering arms to the ball which came in. They became less effective as batsmen got used it.Reverse swing transformed Imran Khan into a statistically one of greatest bowlers from an average bowler.

 

He took over 120 wickets at avg of 13 or 14 at home during that time those are insane numbers for a fast bowler on those types of wickets.We have to add their home

 

They definitely tampered with ball and with their home umpiring they got away and once third umpires came in their effect also reduced.

 

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, Vilander said:

yup thats the word, manage. see how mulog completely stays off the management topics i had discussed at length in my posts..hehe.

@Muloghonto how do you like the ball management top 5 steps from pakistani school of ball management from my previous posts.

Eye-opening. I had no idea that Wasim and Waqar routinely gouged the ball with their nails. 

[Vilander]

8 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Eye-opening. I had no idea that Wasim and Waqar routinely gouged the ball with their nails. 

there you go, see i told ya. But no one can be certain if they did it routinely, but doubts will always linger.

[Rightarmfast]

18 hours ago, Vilander said:

Management of cricket ball lesson 1 

 

Lesson 2: Scruff the seam with a bottle cap to make it swing and bucket loads of wickets...yeah...

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket-imran-admits-cheating-glenn-moore-on-the-book-throwing-light-on-a-touchy-subject-1434755.html%3Famp

Lesson 3 

 

When all else fails, use your nails to give it a good carving and do it with a dirty toothy grin for a measure of discreetness.

 

 

 

Lesson 4 

This is most important.

Never get caught even if found make sure the ball is no where to be seen.

 

"In the 2nd test at Lord's in 1992 the umpires changed the Pakistani ball on the third afternoon, the clear implication being (as with today) that it had been tampered with. But the ball was never found so no more allegations."

 

 

Lesson 5 on ball management.

 

Even if you get caught for ball tampering multiple times and get suspended like waqar keep at it and act as if you have a squeaky clean image.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/88745.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Top post, top find of a video! Thats exactly what I was talking about. Cheating is cheating, whether done by cricketing greats or average players.

[Rightarmfast]

On 5/12/2017 at 9:32 AM, Muloghonto said:

No bottle caps or shitty umpires or shitty camera in the England series. 

As i said, there is no evidence that Akram or Waqar tampered the ball. I've seen plenty of cricket shows where Akram talks in detail about how the Pakistani team managed the ball- they did it better than anyone else has, thats for sure. 

 

Hey Muloghonto, weren's this you claiming there were no evidences against Waqar and Wasim? how do you feel now? Want to take your comments back?

[Nikhil_cric]

I think any neutral would know that Pakistanis were  ball tampering thanks to Akhtars admission and also the fact that Waqar was warned and then fined for ball tampering in 2000. Important thing to note is that Waqar was foolish enough to claim that he had always used such methods . Imran and Wasim were smart enough to avoid making such statements. Having said that, there's no need to question their pace. Waqar has been been clocked @ 153.2 kph in a tri series in 1993 after astress fracture and Wasim at 147 kph. Forget the gun speed gun. Steve Waugh and Shane Warne rate Wasim spell in 1994 in a test match as one of the fastest spells they've ever seen. And many players have commented  on Waqars  pace at his peak. 

[Rightarmfast]

2 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

I think any neutral would know that Pakistanis were  ball tampering thanks to Akhtars admission and also the fact that Waqar was warned and then fined for ball tampering in 2000. Important thing to note is that Waqar was foolish enough to claim that he had always used such methods . Imran and Wasim were smart enough to avoid making such statements. Having said that, there's no need to question their pace. Waqar has been been clocked @ 153.2 kph in a tri series in 1993 after astress fracture and Wasim at 147 kph. Forget the gun speed gun. Steve Waugh and Shane Warne rate Wasim spell in 1994 in a test match as one of the fastest spells they've ever seen. And many players have commented  on Waqars  pace at his peak. 

Wasim's clocked top speed is 145, not 147

[cric_fan]

Wasim's clocked top speed is 145, not 147

 

Why are you obsessed with downplaying the pace of Wasim & Waqar? So I guess all the batsman that found Waqar to be genuinely quick are lying? Fact is the two W's were something else. There has not been any bowler like them since. Waqar at his peak was a monster. I started following cricket because of him.

 

Stop crying about it. Accept it & move on.

[Rightarmfast]

15 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 

Why are you obsessed with downplaying the pace of Wasim & Waqar? So I guess all the batsman that found Waqar to be genuinely quick are lying? Fact is the two W's were something else. There has not been any bowler like them since. Waqar at his peak was a monster. I started following cricket because of him.

 

Stop crying about it. Accept it & move on.

Did I hurt your feelings? Lolz... We can see these monsters doing their monstrosity with the ball :)

[kira]

14 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 There has not been any bowler like them since. Waqar at his peak was a monster. I started following cricket because of him.

McGrath and Steyn says hi, in fact Steyn has been 2 tiers above both of them and  McGrath is arguably the greatest of all time

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Wasim's clocked top speed is 145, not 147

According to Eddie Smith he's. But I think he was clicked at 147 in the same tournament. Not sure though.

[cric_fan]

Did I hurt your feelings? Lolz... We can see these monsters doing their monstrosity with the ball :)

 

You think you are some sort of fast bowling expert. You know jack.

 

And no, you did not hurt my feelings. Produce bowlers like two W's then talk.

[cric_fan]

McGrath and Steyn says hi, in fact Steyn has been 2 tiers above both of them and  McGrath is arguably the greatest of all time

 

In terms of stats, yes Steyn is out of this world.

 

Still, nothing like Waqar at his peak in early 90's.

[Rightarmfast]

30 minutes ago, cric_fan said:

 

You think you are some sort of fast bowling expert. You know jack.

 

And no, you did not hurt my feelings. Produce bowlers like two W's then talk.

Lolz, we would love to but our players are so educated and well bred, they wouldnt cheat for their life. We can't help it

[rtmohanlal]

there is no doubt that all the renowned PAK bowlers had involved in tampering in varying degrees. King Khan  in pre multicamera days & pre neutral umpire days was the 'top' operator.Their own confessions & the testimonies  of several contemporary game related personalities of theirs  are the strong evidence for it.

 

Now coming to the 'greatness' factor, i don't think any game lover who believes in honesty can  take their  records as genuine.No doubt that Imran, Wasim & Waqar  were quality bolwers & not ordinary ones like Madanlal ,Binny or Mohammed Sami or Dihara Fernando for sure.But

it is  even with out a doubt that their stats are hugely inflated in varying degrees because of their 'tampering' methods.Hence personally i can't take their stats as such & there by their 'greatness'. With regard to players like Azharuddin despite being his image tarnished , it only shows that Azhar was even better batsman than his stats reveal because a player can only 'under perform' in match fixing not over perform.This is because 

a player is expected to perform at the maximum anyways.So match fixing tarnishes the credibility of the player but raises the 'quality' of the player, but tampering reduces both. 

[Rightarmfast]

Thats a good perspective. Yes, their umpiring and cheating methods raises severe questions about their wicket tally, especially imran and waqar