Sir Richard Hadlee on Pakistani's reverse swing

[Rightarmfast]

Some of you might have seen this video on youtube, even then I am posting it. A couple of very interesting things to see. 1)  The prodigious swing that Akram and even Waqar is getting in the video, is bizarre. It certainly doesnt look natural to me, if it were, the bowlers of today would do it. It's obvious that there was something else going on there. 2) Wasim and Waqar's pace don't look frightening quick. Although its hard to tell the pace from a video, however if I were to make a comment, I would say the pace of either bowler wasnt exceeding 145, it was probably around 138-143. And this video is from 94 when these bowlers are said to be at their peak. 

3) Sir Richard Hadlee, who knows a thing or two about fast bowling clearly mentioning there was more to it than meets the eye, what was being done to the ball. 

 

After seeing all this, do we still consider these bowlers greats? It took a few allegations to someone like Md Azharuddin, and we totally dismissed him from cricketing fraternity. We don't even talk about him much even though he was a cricketing genius. 

Are these bowlers really that great as they are made out to be?

 

 

[Khota]

I have mixed feelings. If they were applying saliva only then it is fair. If they were lifting the seam then not. 

My opinion - time to move on. 

One thing for sure they were in 130s only as there was not enough carry for the ball.

[Rightarmfast]

It doesnt seem like only saliva was involved because the kind of swing. Yes, we have already moved on, just discussing. 

[Trichromatic]

1. Wasim was Steyn type of bowler in terms of pace. When he was getting swing he would bowl at lower pace and concentrated on getting batsmen out by swing mostly. When there wasn't much on offer he bowled faster to set up batsmen. Steyn does the same. He bowls in 130s in SA if conditions are good for swing bowling. We have seen him averaging 140s on flat pitches.

 

2. There can't be question on their greatness. Whole world considers them great and irrespective of what we think of how it was generated, there won't be question on their status. If you go back pointing out flaws then you would find many for each generation of players. 1920s-40s wasn't professional. 1970s-80s batsmen benefitted a lot from poor home umpires. 

 

3. No mattter how they got it at that time, they made it attractive in 90s and because of them only modern bowlers consider it a skill when pacers all over world struggle to get help. Steyn, Zak, Jones, Shami, Anderson all have tried to master it and performed at international level. If it wasn't made popular by them we would have seen teams simply waiting for new ball in all matches and the period of 60-90 overs wouldn't have been of any interest for pacers on flat pitches.

 

There are always questions on something new being introduced in cricket.

 

Round arm bowling was banned initially, later it was legalized. Underarm was banned only after that Aus-NZ incident. Bouncers were restricted and doosra was almost eliminated in 2010s. Swtich hit was questioned and later MCC and ICC stamped their approval for this shot.

 

Initail phase of any change may be questionable at that point of time or later. That's how skills are introduced in cricket. People question it, discuss it, rules try to limit it and players try to master it within rules. That's how game has evolved over the time. Some introductions fade away, some stay forever. 

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

1. Wasim was Steyn type of bowler in terms of pace. When he was getting swing he would bowl at lower pace and concentrated on getting batsmen out by swing mostly. When there wasn't much on offer he bowled faster to set up batsmen. Steyn does the same. He bowls in 130s in SA if conditions are good for swing bowling. We have seen him averaging 140s on flat pitches.

 

2. There can't be question on their greatness. Whole world considers them great and irrespective of what we think of how it was generated, there won't be question on their status. If you go back pointing out flaws then you would find many for each generation of players. 1920s-40s wasn't professional. 1970s-80s batsmen benefitted a lot from poor home umpires. 

 

3. No mattter how they got it at that time, they made it attractive in 90s and because of them only modern bowlers consider it a skill when pacers all over world struggle to get help. Steyn, Zak, Jones, Shami, Anderson all have tried to master it and performed at international level. If it wasn't made popular by them we would have seen teams simply waiting for new ball in all matches and the period of 60-90 overs wouldn't have been of any interest for pacers on flat pitches.

 

There are always questions on something new being introduced in cricket.

 

Round arm bowling was banned initially, later it was legalized. Underarm was banned only after that Aus-NZ incident. Bouncers were restricted and doosra was almost eliminated in 2010s. Swtich hit was questioned and later MCC and ICC stamped their approval for this shot.

 

Initail phase of any change may be questionable at that point of time or later. That's how skills are introduced in cricket. People question it, discuss it, rules try to limit it and players try to master it within rules. That's how game has evolved over the time. Some introductions fade away, some stay forever. 

1, ahh no

2, ahh hell no

3, lol wut ?

 

 

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

It doesnt seem like only saliva was involved because the kind of swing. Yes, we have already moved on, just discussing. 

yup

 

both of them were trundlers and used bottlecaps to get reverse swing. Basically they bowled slow and cheated, are pakistani greats cause you know how it goes there they did not match fix and get caught so yeah qualify to be greats.

[tweaker]

Wasim & Waqar had great action to bowl reverse swing.They were very quick at that time & that helped them to effectively bowl reverse swing.

 

The craft of reverse swing was new as t that time & other countries were not aware of the same.But as it grew popular almost every bowlers is now using the same.

[Rightarmfast]

@Trichromatic While I dont agree that Wasim was like Steyn, I understand what you are saying. The point I was making was, these guys are hyped for their pace more now, than they actually were.

Secondly about their greatness, no doubt they were great bowlers. But also theres no doubt that all of them cheated. And the bowling talent was heightened by the illegal stuff they were doing. 

 

And no, the bowlers of today dont get that kind of swing simply because they are under the radar all the time. The camera angles, as you can see were nothing like what you have today. If the bowlers still do what these guys used to do to the ball, they would start getting similar swing.

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, Vilander said:

yup

 

both of them were trundlers and used bottlecaps to get reverse swing. Basically they bowled slow and cheated, are pakistani greats cause you know how it goes there they did not match fix and get caught so yeah qualify to be greats.

Good attempt, but didnt amuse much!

[Trichromatic]

26 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

@Trichromatic While I dont agree that Wasim was like Steyn, I understand what you are saying. The point I was making was, these guys are hyped for their pace more now, than they actually were.

Secondly about their greatness, no doubt they were great bowlers. But also theres no doubt that all of them cheated. And the bowling talent was heightened by the illegal stuff they were doing. 

 

And no, the bowlers of today dont get that kind of swing simply because they are under the radar all the time. The camera angles, as you can see were nothing like what you have today. If the bowlers still do what these guys used to do to the ball, they would start getting similar swing.

I don't think Wasim was hyped for pace. Waqar had pace and you can see it in different videos. He could clock 150. Modern day bowlers don't get that kind of swing, but if they made it popular so much that now bowlers take it seriously and try to learn it. Not only Asian bowlers, but English and Australian bowlers try to master it even though means to do it are limited because of scrutiny. Bowlers know that it can done legally with some success and when there isn't much on offer from pitch and conditions, it is very good skill to have.

 

So credit goes to these bowlers to the development of the game and adding a new facet. That's how game develops. It's not right to discredit them just because they couldnt be caught on cameras earlier. Without them we would have missed even some great so called legal spells of reverse swing.

 

Like I mentioned earlier even round arm bowling was deemed illegal early on, but if someone hadn't tried it then it would not have been legal later either. Unless you try different stuff whether it's within laws of game or not you won't develop the game.

[Rightarmfast]

@express bowling

[Ankit_sharma03]

As in the last the anchor ask hadley - if pakistani bowlers can do it why cant anyone else??

 

Well if they could do it n those days it was easy to get well other could have done it to, even to do this u need certain abilities . Not everyone cnt do it

[rkt.india]

To be honest, Akram looked pretty quick in the video easily 140 plus when he was swinging the old ball. You cannot that amount of reverse at a lower pace than that. high the pace, more the reverse.

[Rightarmfast]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

To be honest, Akram looked pretty quick in the video easily 140 plus when he was swinging the old ball. You cannot that amount of reverse at a lower pace than that. high the pace, more the reverse.

I already said he looks 138-143 in the video. I agree. he looks 140'ish. But not 145+

[renjith]

If there were no speed guns today, after 10-15 years people can easily say steyn was a trundler and they will be able to find enough video clippings to prove it as well.

[Rightarmfast]

/\ Just like they do it to Indian bowlers. yeah, I agree

[speedheat]

The guys who are doubting wasims pace should defiantly watch the clippings of his deadly spells in wcup1992, I am damn sure he must be 137k to 148k at his peak though i believe that he would have never crossed 150k, might have slowed down with age and injuries but defiantly was quick .

[Khota]

5 hours ago, Vilander said:

yup

 

both of them were trundlers and used bottlecaps to get reverse swing. Basically they bowled slow and cheated, are pakistani greats cause you know how it goes there they did not match fix and get caught so yeah qualify to be greats.

That is where the problem is. They were lifting seam

More proof: Pakistanis keep on wondering how come they dont have fast bowlers any more. 

Ans: Nothing has changed, now they are not allowed to cheat.

[sandeep]

I don't think the average fan still realizes how much the condition of the ball matters in terms of extracting reverse swing.   Of course the Pakistanis were doing things to the ball - but that doesn't nullify the greatness of the 2 Ws.  First off, the Pakistanis were a bit ahead of the curve in the knowledge required to extract reverse swing - and that's something creditable.  And 2nd, even today, the 'working on the ball' and maintaining the ball are massive grey areas.  

 

Teams have gone to all sorts of extremes to get the desired results - from the south africans adding zippers to their pockets - as clear a violation as it gets - something the team and board should have been penalized for - to certain team members growing a fingernail, using nail hardeners etc - to using certain extremely specific types of mints that result in the ball being polished better.   These are all questionable tactics in use today.   

 

I think OP is being a bit churlish in discrediting the Pakistani bowlers.   Just because they leveraged their knowledge and existing loopholes to maximize this advantage, doesn't mean they weren't great bowlers.   I can understand the need to do this though, if you put too much stock in the phateechar phaans constant crowing and chest thumping of their "traditional" pace prowess.  No such thing.   Pak enjoyed a brief stay at the pace pinnacle, thanks to their 'discovery' of reverse swing and willingness to really push the boundaries on 'ball management'.   Apart from Imran, they were nowhere in the pace bowling discussions before the 90s, and since 2005 or so, haven't really had any ATG type pace bowler contenders either.  

 

[kira]

15 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I don't think the average fan still realizes how much the condition of the ball matters in terms of extracting reverse swing.   Of course the Pakistanis were doing things to the ball - but that doesn't nullify the greatness of the 2 Ws.  First off, the Pakistanis were a bit ahead of the curve in the knowledge required to extract reverse swing - and that's something creditable.  And 2nd, even today, the 'working on the ball' and maintaining the ball are massive grey areas.  

 

Teams have gone to all sorts of extremes to get the desired results - from the south africans adding zippers to their pockets - as clear a violation as it gets - something the team and board should have been penalized for - to certain team members growing a fingernail, using nail hardeners etc - to using certain extremely specific types of mints that result in the ball being polished better.   These are all questionable tactics in use today.   

 

I think OP is being a bit churlish in discrediting the Pakistani bowlers.   Just because they leveraged their knowledge and existing loopholes to maximize this advantage, doesn't mean they weren't great bowlers.   I can understand the need to do this though, if you put too much stock in the phateechar phaans constant crowing and chest thumping of their "traditional" pace prowess.  No such thing.   Pak enjoyed a brief stay at the pace pinnacle, thanks to their 'discovery' of reverse swing and willingness to really push the boundaries on 'ball management'.   Apart from Imran, they were nowhere in the pace bowling discussions before the 90s, and since 2005 or so, haven't really had any ATG type pace bowler contenders either.  

 

WHAT ? Did you forget about the super duper ATG Asif or the savior of the people, the messiah mohammad amir or the super duper PHAAASSST Mohammad abbas