Bhuvi as 3rd seamer in SA Tests

[Muloghonto]

i wonder if in the coming year, when we tour RSA,ENG and AUS, we will see the old adage of 'serve them flat pitches, our bowlers will restrict them to 350, their bowlers will go for runs and we will make 500+ and win', like they did in the last overseas swing.

 

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

i wonder if in the coming year, when we tour RSA,ENG and AUS, we will see the old adage of 'serve them flat pitches, our bowlers will restrict them to 350, their bowlers will go for runs and we will make 500+ and win', like they did in the last overseas swing.

 

it could be. there has been a lot of hoo-ha on this forum about how ours is the greatest pace attack, etc, etc. but I'll be fully convinced only when the team picks up 20 wkts on aus pattas. people say that we could have won adelaide test, etc. but that was only because of the declaration, and not because the team picked up 20 wkts. In that match, both ummi and shami were there. thus, 2 out of 3 pacers are gonna be the same. hence, it remains to be seen how much our pacers have improved since then.

[sandeep]

36 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

i wonder if in the coming year, when we tour RSA,ENG and AUS, we will see the old adage of 'serve them flat pitches, our bowlers will restrict them to 350, their bowlers will go for runs and we will make 500+ and win', like they did in the last overseas swing.

 

This is pretty much the only pitch-fixing that opponents can really do against India at this point, and even that is no slam dunk anymore.   On the previous round of away tours, our bowling ranks were nowhere near as good, and more importantly deep.   

 

Right now, SA knows that if they resort to a green-top, India has the skill and depth in its bowling unit, to come close to their own bowlers' efforts.  And that would reduce the game to an outright shootout between the batting units.  I like our chances in that scenario.   

 

The bouncy road approach is the only one where they could hope to arbitrage an advantage in terms of bowling effectiveness.  And if we have a healthy pool of Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant; and Pandya, Ash/Jaddu/Kuldeep to complement them - its not much of an advantage.   

 

I'm very curious to see what SA do in terms of pitches.  Historically, they have given us slow, low, almost subcontinental tracks for the warm-up game, and followed it up with an out and out seamer's paradise first up.  But that 2 card trick has started backfiring against India with the likes of Sreesanth bowling for us.   And will be of even more dubious utility this time around.  

[sandeep]

36 minutes ago, Vijy said:

it could be. there has been a lot of hoo-ha on this forum about how ours is the greatest pace attack, etc, etc. but I'll be fully convinced only when the team picks up 20 wkts on aus pattas. people say that we could have won adelaide test, etc. but that was only because of the declaration, and not because the team picked up 20 wkts. In that match, both ummi and shami were there. thus, 2 out of 3 pacers are gonna be the same. hence, it remains to be seen how much our pacers have improved since then.

There is a massive difference between Umesh and Shami back then, vs today.  Have you been watching them bowl in test cricket over the last 12 months or so?  Did you watch them back then?  Umesh was still in his spraygun phase back then.  Most importantly, we had the perennial 3rd pacer problem.  Heck, at Adelaide, Shami wasn't even in the team - it was Ishant, Aron and spraygun Umesh.   Ishant gets a lot of hate towards him, but he is never been a guy who can carry a bowling attack. He's good, even very good - when he's the 3rd seamer.   

 

And Shami on his first tour to Oz was quite inexperienced, and may have been carrying the beginnings of an injury that ended up requiring surgery.  

 

 

Edited October 8, 2017 by sandeep

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

This is pretty much the only pitch-fixing that opponents can really do against India at this point, and even that is no slam dunk anymore.   On the previous round of away tours, our bowling ranks were nowhere near as good, and more importantly deep.   

 

Right now, SA knows that if they resort to a green-top, India has the skill and depth in its bowling unit, to come close to their own bowlers' efforts.  And that would reduce the game to an outright shootout between the batting units.  I like our chances in that scenario.   

 

The bouncy road approach is the only one where they could hope to arbitrage an advantage in terms of bowling effectiveness.  And if we have a healthy pool of Shami, Umesh, Bhuvi, Ishant; and Pandya, Ash/Jaddu/Kuldeep to complement them - its not much of an advantage.   

 

I'm very curious to see what SA do in terms of pitches.  Historically, they have given us slow, low, almost subcontinental tracks for the warm-up game, and followed it up with an out and out seamer's paradise first up.  But that 2 card trick has started backfiring against India with the likes of Sreesanth bowling for us.   And will be of even more dubious utility this time around.  

our bowling ranks had both shami and umesh in aus, where we didn't pick even 20 (or perhaps even 15) wickets even in 1 test I think.

[Vijy]

Just now, sandeep said:

There is a massive difference between Umesh and Shami back then, vs today.  Have you been watching them bowl in test cricket over the last 12 months or so?  Did you watch them back then?  Umesh was still in his spraygun phase back then. And Shami was quite inexperienced and may have been carrying the beginnings of an injury that saw him require surgery.  

shami is always carrying an injury. Umesh and esp BK have improved. the upcoming tours will you and me how massive this difference is.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

People are just blindly slotting in Pandya  as 3rd  seamer when the guy has hardly bowled his full quota in ODIs.   This is not virtual or fantasy cricket.  There's the unanswered question of physical workload. He's at best a 4th seamer for tests right now.  There's no way Bhuvi misses out because of him.  Only way to accommodate him in SA is in place of one of the spin twins.  

If we get a green / seaming track then Hardik would be the 4th seamer for sure.

 

But, if a rare flat track comes up then we know what we did in SL.

 

It is immaterial what the fans want .... Kohli has given a strong impression via interviews that he really wants to play Pandya, no matter what.  Which is why I called him a lock.

[express bowling]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

So do you think India is definitely going to go with 5 batsmen + 1 wicketkeeper + 5 players who can bowl option ?? 

From Kohli's interviews, it would seem so .... unless we feel conservative at that time

 

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

If they do that, i'd think atleast two of Bhuvi, Jadeja and Ashwin are locks on the side every match because India would need to elongate its tail in the 5+1+5 format. 

 

Most likely.

 

But, wanting to play a wrist-spinner, if 2 spinners are playing, will also be there.  Kuldeep better start practicing his batting to come near Jadeja.

 

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

And if India is doing so, would it not make more sense to go with 5+1+5 option vs Sri Lanka, just so we can get Ashwin/Saha used to more batting responsibility at #6 ?

Has happened last month and will probably happen next month too.

[sandeep]

3 hours ago, Vijy said:

shami is always carrying an injury. Umesh and esp BK have improved. the upcoming tours will you and me how massive this difference is.

Of course.  And in spite of the improvements, we could still struggle.   But cricket's a funny game, bowlers can put better statistics than their bowling, if the batting has fired and provided scoreboard pressure, and vice versa.  Anything can happen.  But as I said earlier, given what we know at this point, I have extremely high hopes.  I'm willing to say that we start the SA series as slight favorites.  I don't care about the historical record.   SA's batting is not as battle hardened and classy as ours.  Their bowlers are good, but they don't have experience and quality on their bench.  Morkel, their lead bowler, is already out with an injury.  Philander neveer seems to get through more than a test or 2 without pulling up injured.   There's no Kallis in this team to provide that extra balance, although QdK is a definite plus for them.  AB will have a lot to prove, but his dodgy back is another season older, and the mileage is beginning to show up.   Neither is their batting as deep as ours.   All we need is players to be fit, and not in slumps - if that happens, I expect us to win this series.   

[rkt.india]

17 hours ago, Vijy said:

our bowling ranks had both shami and umesh in aus, where we didn't pick even 20 (or perhaps even 15) wickets even in 1 test I think.

Those were the flattest pitches in the history of Australian test cricket. Apart from Gabba, none of pitches had anything for seamers and at Gabba we were doing pretty well until the brainfade against Johnson after a serious of spell pace by Aaron in the morning and Ishant just couldn't sustain that pressure.

Edited October 9, 2017 by rkt.india

[sandeep]

23 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

just couldn't sustain that pressure.

Pretty much, the story of most of our overseas tours with our bowling.   Chalk it up to lack of fitness, lack of ability, and when we did have good young pacers in decent form, we had the perennial 3rd pacer problem.    

 

Even if you go as far back as that disastrous 99 tour to Australia, where we lost badly under Tendy's captaincy.  Even then, IIRC we started the 1st test by taking 4 Aussie wickets for 50-odd.  But then, we couldn't "sustain the pressure", and Australia was able to escape to 450.  And the rest is history.   Dravid had a stinker of a tour.  And VVS was playing as an opener, and laid rotten eggs all over the place until the last series where he just let himself go and spanked that 160-odd.   But it all started with our bowlers inability to put up a complete performance, for even one innings, let alone a match or series.  

 

I'm really hoping that "this time, its going to be  different".   For that, we need Shami to stay fit and in rhythm. Yadav to not revert to "spraygun" inconsistencies, and Bhuvi to keep up his pace, stamina and bowling quality.   All of these are well within the realm of possibility, given the track record  of the 3 pacers in the last 12-15 months. 

[putrevus]

32 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Those were the flattest pitches in the history of Australian test cricket. Apart from Gabba, none of pitches had anything for seamers and at Gabba we were doing pretty well until the braincase against Johnson after a serious spell pace by Aaron and Ishant was just couldn't sustain that pressure.

Sustaining pressure is key and I don't think we have fast bowlers who are good enough to do that for entire test forget series.

[putrevus]

Playing Pandya as third seamer would be biggest mistake, this guy cannot bowl ten over consistently in odis, how will he bowl in tests.

[Pollack]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Playing Pandya as third seamer would be biggest mistake, this guy cannot bowl ten over consistently in odis, how will he bowl in tests.

It's SA. I can bet he is bowling good there. He is not a lead pacer, one must remember. So you cannot expect him go run through sides. However I am more than sure he is going to b more lethal than in subcontinent conditions.Lets see. Kohli is playing him for sure. So mistake or not, does not matter.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Pollack said:

It's SA. I can bet he is bowling good there. He is not a lead pacer, one must remember. So you cannot expect him go run through sides. However I am more than sure he is going to b more lethal than in subcontinent conditions.Lets see. Kohli is playing him for sure. So mistake or not, does not matter.

Playing him in  the team and playing as third seamer are totally different. Third seamer you do expect them to take wickets.

[cowboysfan]

On 10/8/2017 at 1:49 PM, Muloghonto said:

Kuldeep does not get to replace the guy who has taken nearly 300 wickets @ 25 average and 5 wickets/match, who is still producing those figures, if fit. Sorry.

His bowling performance in non subcontinental grounds leave a lot to be desired.I think Jadeja and even kuldeep will do well on green pitches than Ashwin.

[gattaca]

On October 8, 2017 at 10:49 AM, sandeep said:

I wouldn't go the Kuldeep route to start with, I like having Ash in there for his batting.  Historically we've been vulnerable with the bat in SA, especially in the 1st match of series.   I hope M00Li is fit and in form by January.  

Historically doesn't apply to last tour we struggled to get the last few wickets and which caused the draw. May be this is our defensive thinking we should select bowlers who can pick up 20 wickets. Can't do much if we like up 550 and can't take wickets. 

[Muloghonto]

26 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

Inability to sustain pressure arose from lack of depth in fast bowling department back in the day. Srinath was not the bowler meant for grunt work, but he did it regardless, because there was nobody else good enough. He never got the breather quicks need to operate at their optimal level. Opposition could always wait till he was tired and pick him apart afterwards. Pretty much a ferrari used for everyday commute.

Srinath did not have the stamina to be a workhorse (like Kapil or Walsh were) and he did not have the attitude to be a spearhead.

I still remember the day Srinath bounced Ponting, hit him on the helmet and immediately went to apologize. Ponting was the guy going 'ma-ki' to Srinath, when every other time, its the bowler circling the batsman hit by a bouncer, like a vulture circles their dying meal. 

 

You know why Srinath, despite being express speed, in an era where the world had six-seven hall of famer fast bowlers and on pitches where 300-350 was a par 1st innings score, still sucked so much ? Because batsmen knew against him, they were safe. Sri won't bounce you, unless to remind you he still has a bouncer, he will apologize if he hits you and then feed you stuff outside off-stump. 

 

26 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

This is the precise reason why Pandya is such a god sent for Virat-Shastri regime. Skillwise, he's as good as some of the frontline bowlers we fielded back in the day. But his job description would be limited to being the relief bowler - one who's capable of hitting the deck hard and bowling at 140 clicks. Huge capability upgrade.

Yes, but is he truly good enough a bowler to be our 3rd bowler in overseas conditions though ? I see currently, we have a clear #1 pacer: Shami. Yadav is the clear #2. And overseas, i don't see why Pandya gets in ahead of Bhuvi, unless they are on Aussie roads, where bounce and speed matter more than seam movement. 

 

26 minutes ago, sarchasm said:

His presence in the XI should allow our top three pacers to stay fresh and bowl no more than 5-6 overs a session at FULL tilt. This is also the precise reason why I am skeptical of Bhuvi as the third pacer regardless of his proficiency with the bat. Bumrah as the third pacer would make the attack a lot more threatening.

Bumrah is not a longer format bowler. He will not go for much runs, but Bumrah does not have the ability to take wickets when a batsman is defending him. And if you cannot take wickets against defensive shots, you are not good enough to be a test bowler.