MS Dhoni mega discussion thread

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Laaloo said:

No they will end up as what if story because of Dhoni and not one another. Dhoni as a captain even played himself during dead rubbers when the series was already on 4-0, so what do you expect now?

they can easily end up as what-if stories of one another. Infact, its more likely if either one is a gen talent and the other is merely world class. Because Gen talent will make himself 'undroppable except rotation/injuries' and will end up playing 80-90% of the match and the other is rotator/injury fill-in till generational player retires. If another talent starts rising, they too will command space in their prime and the end result is, #2 from Pant-Kishan ends up with 30 tests, 70-80 ODIs, 30-40 t20s under their belt. 

 

[sandeep]

18 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

 

You are haters because you see a guy who scores 40+ runs/innings at 90+ average and 80+ strike rate 'not living to requirement at #6' and want him dropped. Because solution to said problem, for most sane people, is promotion up the batting order. Where you want an accumulator. 

if every team had a guy scoring 40+ runs/innings at 80+ average and keeping wickets well, they'd find a way to fit him in. those who want to toss that away, are irrational towards the team and ergo, haters.

 

 

Indian team has way too many accumulators - Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli are accumulators.   And Manish Pandey is a younger accumulator who's better at hitting the ground running than Dhoni is.  An ODI team no longer needs 4 accumulators in its batting lineup.  Suresh Raina is a better choice than MS Dhoni at this point for the Indian ODI team, if Dhoni was just a batsman.  The fact that he's one of the slickest 'keepers around, and has a wealth of experience that is useful because our current captain "aggressive" isn't exactly a tactical genius, is what is keeping Dhoni's career alive.

 

We have been consistently getting out-gunned by the top ODI teams in the last 3 years.  South Africa came into our own house and spanked us in ODIs.   One of those games was lost when Dhoni couldn't get the job done.  We lost 5 ODIs on the trot to Australia in 2015 - 4 in a bilateral, and 5th in a WC semi, because our batting was out-gunned.   England came in and almost beat us in a short series.  The writing is on the wall.   India needs to up its batting game in ODIs.   The game has moved on from 2013.   And Dhoni is increasingly part of the problem, not part of the solution.   I will be among the happiest on ICF if Dhoni manages to resurrect his career and somehow find a way to raise his game and play till WC 2019.   But if he doesn't, he needs to go.   This is crunch time.   The decision has to be made  in the next 6 months.  

 

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Ur literally over estimating Saha . 

No reason to rush pant, when u get a talent like give him as many chances as possible. Ur talking as if people at his age hasnt done well in international cricket

Saha is not even a contendor , gulp it down . 

Ill rather call the choker dinesh karthik ahead of Saha 

Yes, long-shot things have worked. not good enough reason to make long-shot way. thats what Parosis do, remember ? kid does well in nets --> play international match next. It too works. Akram made it work. And for one Akram, how many players they ruined by early exposure ?! Remember that 14 year old who was gonna be next tendulkar ? didn't look that bad and was actually a very, very good batsman for a 14 year old..what happened ?

Indian cricket needs to modernize and that means professional management. 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, long-shot things have worked. not good enough reason to make long-shot way. thats what Parosis do, remember ? kid does well in nets --> play international match next. It too works. Akram made it work. And for one Akram, how many players they ruined by early exposure ?! Remember that 14 year old who was gonna be next tendulkar ? didn't look that bad and was actually a very, very good batsman for a 14 year old..what happened ?

Indian cricket needs to modernize and that means professional management. 

You are quoting one extreme to defend another.  Classic Strawman stuff.  

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Indian team has way too many accumulators - Rohit Sharma and Virat Kohli are accumulators.   And Manish Pandey is a younger accumulator who's better at hitting the ground running than Dhoni is.  An ODI team no longer needs 4 accumulators in its batting lineup.  Suresh Raina is a better choice than MS Dhoni at this point for the Indian ODI team, if Dhoni was just a batsman.  The fact that he's one of the slickest 'keepers around, and has a wealth of experience that is useful because our current captain "aggressive" isn't exactly a tactical genius, is what is keeping Dhoni's career alive.

 

We have been consistently getting out-gunned by the top ODI teams in the last 3 years.  South Africa came into our own house and spanked us in ODIs.   One of those games was lost when Dhoni couldn't get the job done.  We lost 5 ODIs on the trot to Australia in 2015 - 4 in a bilateral, and 5th in a WC semi, because our batting was out-gunned.   England came in and almost beat us in a short series.  The writing is on the wall.   India needs to up its batting game in ODIs.   The game has moved on from 2013.   And Dhoni is increasingly part of the problem, not part of the solution.   I will be among the happiest on ICF if Dhoni manages to resurrect his career and somehow find a way to raise his game and play till WC 2019.   But if he doesn't, he needs to go.   This is crunch time.   The decision has to be made  in the next 6 months.  

 

 

Boom. 

Welcome to reality of being an allrounder. So reality is, sorry Pandey, you either get dropped or become more aggressive hitter and come after Dhoni. Because as the bolded part shows, this man is undroppable when scoring runs.

Especially when the 'option' is not that he is blocking a 27 year old Gillchrist in waiting, but a bunch of 19-20 year olds who can put bat on ball once in a while and have so far, been okay keepers. 

Pant/Kishan plays when Dhoni doesn't want to/can't play. And if Dhoni wants to and does play 100% of next 2-3 years, All it means, is Pant and Kishan get their shots when they are 22-23 years old. Not the end of the world. Desi-Gillchrist will have 3-4 year advantage over Aussie-Gillchrist. 

[Muloghonto]

5 minutes ago, sandeep said:

You are quoting one extreme to defend another.  Classic Strawman stuff.  

there is no extreme being defended. Be useful + be fit + is already great = guarantee team spot is a practically bullet-proof paradigm in pro-sports. And a super-slick keeper who is fit and scoring runs at the current moment is being useful to the team, end of story. 

So no, no strawman.

I am simply stating what happens in pro-sports for pro teams. And why that is the case. Indian mentality-both management and fans- are amatuer-ish. And pro sports is not modelled after throwing early performing guy off the deep end in highest level. Most go through development at 18-19-20-21 even. 

 

Edited September 14, 2017 by Muloghonto

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, long-shot things have worked. not good enough reason to make long-shot way. thats what Parosis do, remember ? kid does well in nets --> play international match next. It too works. Akram made it work. And for one Akram, how many players they ruined by early exposure ?! Remember that 14 year old who was gonna be next tendulkar ? didn't look that bad and was actually a very, very good batsman for a 14 year old..what happened ?

Indian cricket needs to modernize and that means professional management. 

As if their were only akrams n tendulkar who did well in that age 

 

Indian cricket needs to modernize and that means professional management- we have reached that mark and doing pretty well on those areas. If u see Indian cricket has been on rise rest most teams have been on downfall from their past . 

 

Cricket will always be simple - Have ur 11 best player n best combination. Age shudnt be the criteria old or young. Fitness , form , skill talent thats what matters. 

 

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Boom. 

Welcome to reality of being an allrounder. So reality is, sorry Pandey, you either get dropped or become more aggressive hitter and come after Dhoni. Because as the bolded part shows, this man is undroppable when scoring runs.

Especially when the 'option' is not that he is blocking a 27 year old Gillchrist in waiting, but a bunch of 19-20 year olds who can put bat on ball once in a while and have so far, been okay keepers. 

Pant/Kishan plays when Dhoni doesn't want to/can't play. And if Dhoni wants to and does play 100% of next 2-3 years, All it means, is Pant and Kishan get their shots when they are 22-23 years old. Not the end of the world. Desi-Gillchrist will have 3-4 year advantage over Aussie-Gillchrist. 

And the reality is that unless Dhoni stops playing16(35) type of innings, he's on damn thin ice.  And he knows it.  That's why all this work in attempting to change his pads, change his stance and all that work is being put in.  For his sake, I hope it works out and he can improve his ODI productivity.  If the signs are not encouraging within the next 5-6 months or so - I believe the man himself will make another abrupt announcement - a la his retirement from tests.  

[Muloghonto]

3 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

As if their were only akrams n tendulkar who did well in that age 

 

Indian cricket needs to modernize and that means professional management- we have reached that mark and doing pretty well on those areas. If u see Indian cricket has been on rise rest most teams have been on downfall from their past . 

 

Cricket will always be simple - Have ur 11 best player n best combination. Age shudnt be the criteria old or young. Fitness , form , skill talent thats what matters. 

 

Most cricketers are not doing well at 18-20 years of age in international cricket. great or otherwise. 

 

Its not about Akrams and tendulkars. Fans are all about them, but sports management is not about them. the system exists, because for a 10-15 man team, for every Akram and tendulkar you have, you have 3-4 Sanjay Manjrekars. Your management objective is not to cater to 11 giants of the game. because 11 giants don't exist all at one time. if they do, you are super, duper, duper lucky and its time to enjoy. but in 10-20 years when giants generation retire, you are back to the tried and tested scenario of '1 akram and 3 aaqib javeds' of the world. that is why the system exists. And if it means the 1 akram has to wait longer to get a chance, so be it. 

 

[Laaloo]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

Serious question have you seen Rishabh keep? He took some blinders in the IPL and was very safe throughout....even in domestics he has no reputation of being clumsy...so on what basis are you writing of a 19 year old kid without even watching him?

 

I cannot guarantee a 100% that he will have a more successful career than Dhoni...sure?

 

can you guarantee the same for sure  that he won't and will be a failure?

 

how do you know without even trying someone...especially when that someone is talked about as the next big thing and has a string of performances and a purple patch in recent times to boot?

 

Also Dhoni is a poor keeper to pacers when the ball is swinging, he has a lot of flaws while keeping to fast bowlers...he is magnificent against spin infact when it comes to one area of stumping better than Saha as well...all he is is a safe keeper.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No he hasn't. He was busy in chit chat when Pant was scoring runs and getting neglected. Everyone who saw him in the domestics and in the IPL knew he was/is pretty good. Now some of the chamchas are saying that his India A coach says he's not good. You know who was the coach? Dravid. That's right. Dravid, who was a piss poor wicket keeper, is judging others. But then again, the way Dravid was trying to ruin Pant and promoting his favorite Nair was there for all to see in the IPL. 

[Pollack]

Seriously some posters keep talking about Pant being a bad keeper. Based on what? Which are the matches they saw where pant kept badly which we did not have the good fortune to watch.(apart from u19 world cup match). 

[Pollack]

Kedar is moved up and down the order for accommodating dhoni. Pandey sits out for accommodating dhoni. Pant or any backup keeper is not groomed for dhoni. And here are people complaining about not using dhoni properly. Ab aur kya Kare dhoni ke liye ,isse jyad, team India?

[Laaloo]

11 minutes ago, Pollack said:

Seriously some posters keep talking about Pant being a bad keeper. Based on what? Which are the matches they saw where pant kept badly which we did not have the good fortune to watch.(apart from u19 world cup match). 

They havent. 

[Laaloo]

Just now, Pollack said:

Kedar is moved up and down the order for accommodating dhoni. Pandey sits out for accommodating dhoni. Pant or any backup keeper is not groomed for dhoni. And here are people complaining about not using dhoni properly. Ab aur kya Kare dhoni ke liye ,isse jyad, team India?

Imagine Dhoni walking in at 3. India are 2 down for 90 in 18 overs and here dhoni will start sucking up the deliveries. He will not take risks and remain out whereas at the other end, because he's slow, they have to take risks and lose their wickets. India end up with a below par total and Dhoni ends up with a not out with a mediocre strike rate and his chamchas will shout at the top of their lungs. 

[wanted_desi]

Going by title here:

 

Ravi it is going beyond his shoes, he is no on who will decide which player will play World Cup. It is selectors job. 

[Rasgulla]

5 hours ago, Khota said:

I hope you can read stat tables. Just remember if you score more runs you are better. Not the otherway around.

 

Most runs

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
DA Warner	14	14	3	641	126	58.27	452	141.81	1	4	0	63	26
(Sunrisers Hyderabad)
G Gambhir	16	16	4	498	76*	41.50	389	128.02	0	4	0	62	7
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
S Dhawan	14	14	1	479	77	36.84	376	127.39	0	3	0	53	9
(Sunrisers Hyderabad)
SPD Smith	15	15	3	472	84*	39.33	387	121.96	0	3	0	38	12
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
SK Raina	14	14	3	442	84	40.18	307	143.97	0	3	0	42	13
(Gujarat Lions)
HM Amla	10	10	3	420	104*	60.00	288	145.83	2	2	1	40	17
(Kings XI Punjab)
MK Pandey	14	13	5	396	81*	49.50	308	128.57	0	2	0	28	12
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
PA Patel	16	16	0	395	70	24.68	293	134.81	0	2	2	49	8
(Mumbai Indians)
RA Tripathi	14	14	0	391	93	27.92	267	146.44	0	2	1	43	17
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
RV Uthappa	14	13	0	388	87	29.84	235	165.10	0	5	1	36	21
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
SV Samson	14	14	0	386	102	27.57	273	141.39	1	2	2	32	19
(Delhi Daredevils)
KA Pollard	17	16	3	385	70	29.61	276	139.49	0	3	0	26	22
(Mumbai Indians)
AM Rahane	16	16	1	382	60	25.46	323	118.26	0	2	2	35	9
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
RR Pant	14	14	0	366	97	26.14	221	165.61	0	2	3	28	24
(Delhi Daredevils)
KD Karthik	14	13	3	361	65	36.10	259	139.38	0	2	1	30	11
(Gujarat Lions)
SS Iyer	12	12	2	338	96	33.80	243	139.09	0	2	0	36	10
(Delhi Daredevils)
N Rana	13	12	1	333	62*	30.27	264	126.13	0	3	0	24	17
(Mumbai Indians)
RG Sharma	17	16	2	333	67	23.78	273	121.97	0	3	1	31	9
(Mumbai Indians)
MK Tiwary	15	13	3	324	60	32.40	236	137.28	0	2	1	31	11
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
BB McCullum	11	11	0	319	72	29.00	217	147.00	0	2	0	29	18
(Gujarat Lions)
BA Stokes	12	11	1	316	103*	31.60	221	142.98	1	1	0	22	15
(Rising Pune Supergiant)
GJ Maxwell	14	13	3	310	47	31.00	179	173.18	0	0	3	19	26
(Kings XI Punjab)
V Kohli	10	10	0	308	64	30.80	252	122.22	0	4	1	23	11
(Royal Challengers Bangalore)
AJ Finch	13	13	1	299	72	24.91	180	166.11	0	2	1	25	19
(Gujarat Lions)
CA Lynn	7	7	1	295	93*	49.16	163	180.98	0	3	0	25	19
(Kolkata Knight Riders)
MS Dhoni	16	15	4	290	61*	26.36	250	116.00	0	1	0	15	16
(Rising Pune Supergiant)

I see Uttu patel and samson are ahead of next WK race ahead of a slogger..good stats so we all agree that your boy needs to stand in line

[Rasgulla]

Opinion is coming from Dravid who is best test player ahead of fraud so called gawddd and who played for himself only 

[Rasgulla]

5 hours ago, Khota said:

Have you ever played anything?

Hahahahahaha have you? what's your ranji record

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Pollack said:

Seriously some posters keep talking about Pant being a bad keeper. Based on what? Which are the matches they saw where pant kept badly which we did not have the good fortune to watch.(apart from u19 world cup match). 

Nobody said he is a bad keeper. he is not as good as Dhoni is. Nowhere close. So needs to keep working on his wicket-keeping, instead of having 1-2 good knocks with the bat see him in the team.

 

[Khota]

58 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Hahahahahaha have you? what's your ranji record

There are lot of circumstances that dictate what you get to play. Sometimes because of family hardships you dont progress. Based on your quotes and writing on this forum you come across as rather naive and illinformed. This is not personal. just because you have played ranji does not make you a talent spotter. 

On a serious not any of those guys are better than dhoni. he is done.