India's over reliance on top 3

[Prateek3801]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

This is the problem. top 3 usually bat long and others barely get chances to bat and expecting middle order batsmen will just come in start bashing bowlers is highly unrealistic. every batsmen will need some time get going and when they try to hit straight away, they most often than not will fail. This is the reason most of Pandya' good innings have been when he had lot of overs to bat either when promoted or when team collapsed. Same with Dhoni though Dhoni has struggled to hit out these day even when he is set. 

That's were I feel Rishabh Pant is useful, he can smash right from ball 1. And as far as Pandya is concerned, after that whirlwind 93 in the first test, he didn't even show little bit of character. He has quite a few times thrown away his wicket and that is not expected when you play overseas. 

[Samcric]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

This is the problem. top 3 usually bat long and others barely get chances to bat and expecting middle order batsmen will just come in start bashing bowlers is highly unrealistic. every batsmen will need some time get going and when they try to hit straight away, they most often than not will fail. This is the reason most of Pandya' good innings have been when he had lot of overs to bat either when promoted or when team collapsed. Same with Dhoni though Dhoni has struggled to hit out these day even when he is set. 

Usually teams convert a situation of 170-2 after 30 overs to at least 320 runs after 50 overs. India is becoming a bit of exception and there are no excuses. No. 4 not being able to hit immediately is ok but most good teams have no. 5,6,7 batsmen who can strike well. We have only Pandya and though he has the potential, he is still not consistent enough. In fact, Yuvraj's biggest strength at No. 4 was that he could hit 35-ball 50. In the current middle order, only Pandya (and perhaps KL, if given a chance) is capable of that. While most other No.4 and 5 batsmen would enjoy coming in at a position of strength, our middle order is clueless with regards to pacing an innings. 

[rkt.india]

45 minutes ago, Prateek3801 said:

That's were I feel Rishabh Pant is useful, he can smash right from ball 1. And as far as Pandya is concerned, after that whirlwind 93 in the first test, he didn't even show little bit of character. He has quite a few times thrown away his wicket and that is not expected when you play overseas. 

it is not that easy for any youngster to just come in and start hitting without getting their eye in whether it is pant or Pandya to do it consistently. why Dhoni was so successful because he played percentage cricket most times and will start hitting very late. 

[Samcric]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

no, the thing is top is battign till 40 than they will have to bat whole 50 overs and not get out. you cant expect your top 3 playing 43 overs scoring 240-250 leaving 7 overs for middle order to bat and expect 80-100 runs in 7 overs.  This is a wrong fallacy because it will happen once in a blue moon.  Only set batsmen can score at a high especially with changed fielding restriction in last 10 overs. Every new batsman coming in will eat balls to get set. 

Most teams in the world would gladly take a situation of 230-2 after 40 overs. Reason is simple - they have the hitting power that India does not. We should stop justifying the philosophy of playing 20 balls before being able to attack. Guys like Maxwell, Stoinis, Miller, Morris, Butler, Morgan etc. don't need it. I can't understand why we are trying to defend scores of 50-60 runs in the last 10 overs?

[Vilander]

1 hour ago, Prateek3801 said:

Let me elaborate, the rope he got for at least 6-7 years and rightfully lost it 2 years back.

rightfully gets back now.

[swastikpanda2]

This is/ was/ will be the scenario always. 

We have never produced world class middle order batsmen except for peak Yuvraj Singh and peak Ms Dhoni. 

 

We are just a Top order heavy team. Even the recent U19 team had a horrible middle order after Top3. 

 

We play Rahane (opener) at 4, Sreyas Iyer(Top Oder) at 5, Manish Pandey (shouldn't bat lower than 4)  at 5,6. The only proper middle order batsmen we have is Kedar Jadhav who is mediocre against good bowling attacks and Ms Dhoni who has lost all his batting skills.

 

The real problem is almost all (Except Pant) our potential middle order batsmen play at top order for their domestic teams so that they can score runs and hence will impress the selectors. 

 

The aspiring Indian team batsmen and Selectors should understand that top order is not gonna change untill 2022 and should adapt themselves by batting in middle order. 

[sergio04]

Most teams in the world would gladly take a situation of 230-2 after 40 overs. Reason is simple - they have the hitting power that India does not. We should stop justifying the philosophy of playing 20 balls before being able to attack. Guys like Maxwell, Stoinis, Miller, Morris, Butler, Morgan etc. don't need it. I can't understand why we are trying to defend scores of 50-60 runs in the last 10 overs?

Fully agreed

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[sergio04]

India needs two batsman who can score 30-35 in 20 balls if needed

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[eternalhope]

8 hours ago, swastikpanda2 said:

This is/ was/ will be the scenario always. 

We have never produced world class middle order batsmen except for peak Yuvraj Singh and peak Ms Dhoni. 

 

We are just a Top order heavy team. Even the recent U19 team had a horrible middle order after Top3. 

 

We play Rahane (opener) at 4, Sreyas Iyer(Top Oder) at 5, Manish Pandey (shouldn't bat lower than 4)  at 5,6. The only proper middle order batsmen we have is Kedar Jadhav who is mediocre against good bowling attacks and Ms Dhoni who has lost all his batting skills.

 

The real problem is almost all (Except Pant) our potential middle order batsmen play at top order for their domestic teams so that they can score runs and hence will impress the selectors. 

 

The aspiring Indian team batsmen and Selectors should understand that top order is not gonna change untill 2022 and should adapt themselves by batting in middle order. 

Very nice summary of the current batting and that is also the reason we don't have the fear factor in T20s, though overall we are a very good team in that format, but this is more due to our improved bowling off late.

[Vijy]

8 hours ago, swastikpanda2 said:

This is/ was/ will be the scenario always. 

We have never produced world class middle order batsmen except for peak Yuvraj Singh and peak Ms Dhoni. 

 

We are just a Top order heavy team. Even the recent U19 team had a horrible middle order after Top3. 

 

We play Rahane (opener) at 4, Sreyas Iyer(Top Oder) at 5, Manish Pandey (shouldn't bat lower than 4)  at 5,6. The only proper middle order batsmen we have is Kedar Jadhav who is mediocre against good bowling attacks and Ms Dhoni who has lost all his batting skills.

 

The real problem is almost all (Except Pant) our potential middle order batsmen play at top order for their domestic teams so that they can score runs and hence will impress the selectors. 

 

The aspiring Indian team batsmen and Selectors should understand that top order is not gonna change untill 2022 and should adapt themselves by batting in middle order. 

Even Jadhav used to bat at 4 in domestic list A matches mostly. Looking at the ongoing Hazare trophy, hard to see any promising batsmen doing well at 4-6.

[King Tendulkar]

We are very reliant on kohli 

 

but semi kohli smacks Ton . Final

kohli smacks Ton . Bingo we are world champs 

[Vijy]

6 hours ago, King Tendulkar said:

We are very reliant on kohli 

 

but semi kohli smacks Ton . Final

kohli smacks Ton . Bingo we are world champs 

VK has not made even a 50 in SFs and Fs of WC and CT. Remains to be seen how he does in 2019.

[King Tendulkar]

4 hours ago, Vijy said:

VK has not made even a 50 in SFs and Fs of WC and CT. Remains to be seen how he does in 2019.

Wrist slitting time lol yeah kohli can’t handle pressure we all know that loooool

[gazza]

Got to prepare the young guys so they are ready for the World Cup, means giving Rahul, Gill, pant and hooda consistent games. If tripathi and vohra can become more consistent then they can start to be introduced.

[Stuge]

To win most matchs you will definitely need top 3 to score heavily ...if they don't most teams will fail to win matches not just India .If you see why South Africa failed in Odi's is because their top order couldn't replicate what Indian top order did consistently.

[jalebi_bhai]

On 2/16/2018 at 9:43 AM, Mosher said:

Taking time doesn't mean wasting deliveries. They can play low risk cricket by taking 1's and 2's initially. We need to find players like Raina who used to keep the scoreboard ticking right from ball one and change gears when needed. Not saying Raina will do that job now. 

This right here.

 

In both the 4th and 5th ODI, we found ourselves at around 170/2 after 30. We failed to get to 300 in both those games. If the current middle order can't even score 130 runs in 120 balls, then we have a big problem on our hands. Less than 6 rpo in the last 10 overs with 6-7 wickets in hand is unpardonable. No excuse for this. 

 

The middle order is the most dysfunctional part of the team and the sooner we rectify it the better. At home, they'll manage to get by as our bowlers will be able to defend par scores but this won't be the case overseas. 

[express bowling]

1. We should give middle-order batters fixed positions in most matches.  Floating batting positions in almost every match, for 4 to 7 batters, must stop ( can be used only in some cases ).  Players are getting confused regarding their roles.

 

2.  We should stop playing such batters between No. 5 to No. 7, who do not have ability to hit big shots with regularity. (  Iyer, Pandey, current day Dhoni would all fall in this category ) .  Playing such batters at 5 to 7, and then saying that we are not making 100+ runs in the last 10 overs, does not make sense. 

 

Get in new batters who can start hitting big shots relatively earlier in their innings and can rotate the strike too.  Not every tried batter will succeed, but some will ... which is why we need to start this experiment early, with sufficient time left for WC19.   Hardik and Jadhav are there.  Try Pant, Kishan, Hooda, Shankar, Krunal etc. and see who look the best for these positions.

 

3,  No.4 should feature a batter who is a proper batsman, who has the ability to handle quality bowling, especially if there is a collapse.  He should also have the ability to hit big shots if he bats past the 40th over.  Rahul has always been my pick for 4 as he ticks all the boxes.  Give him 10 or 15 games on the trot at 4, without dropping him or judging him.

 

4. Create like-for-like backups for all positions.  Jadhav, a high SR finisher who can bowl 4 or 5 overs, was replaced by Iyer, who is a top batter who can't bowl.  Not the way to go and shows lack of planning.

 

We should be ready for injuries.

Edited February 17, 2018 by express bowling

[Vijy]

12 hours ago, express bowling said:

1. We should give middle-order batters fixed positions in most matches.  Floating batting positions in almost every match, for 4 to 7 batters, must stop ( can be used only in some cases ).  Players are getting confused regarding their roles.

 

2.  We should stop playing such batters between No. 5 to No. 7, who do not have ability to hit big shots with regularity. (  Iyer, Pandey, current day Dhoni would all fall in this category ) .  Playing such batters at 5 to 7, and then saying that we are not making 100+ runs in the last 10 overs, does not make sense. 

 

Get in new batters who can start hitting big shots relatively earlier in their innings and can rotate the strike too.  Not every tried batter will succeed, but some will ... which is why we need to start this experiment early, with sufficient time left for WC19.   Hardik and Jadhav are there.  Try Pant, Kishan, Hooda, Shankar, Krunal etc. and see who look the best for these positions.

 

3,  No.4 should feature a batter who is a proper batsman, who has the ability to handle quality bowling, especially if there is a collapse.  He should also have the ability to hit big shots if he bats past the 40th over.  Rahul has always been my pick for 4 as he ticks all the boxes.  Give him 10 or 15 games on the trot at 4, without dropping him or judging him.

 

4. Create like-for-like backups for all positions.  Jadhav, a high SR finisher who can bowl 4 or 5 overs, was replaced by Iyer, who is a top batter who can't bowl.  Not the way to go and shows lack of planning.

 

We should be ready for injuries.

Regd #2, there's no way Dhoni will get dropped (unfortunately). We just need to plan around him, and manage with what we have. I agree regd Rahul, but I dunno why VK has distrusted him - even in tests, he didn't play the 1st match.

 

I'm not sure if Pant and Kishan rotate the strike well. they both seemed more like boundary-hitters to me. hooda, shankar and krunal can all bowl/bat to varying degrees, but I doubt if they will be selected this close to the WC.

[Turning_track]

On 2/17/2018 at 6:43 AM, Vijy said:

VK has not made even a 50 in SFs and Fs of WC and CT. Remains to be seen how he does in 2019.

Kohli has already made 58* & 96* against SL & Bangladesh in CT 2013 & 2017. Both were semifinals.