Kohli and management have single handedly ruined team built by Dhoni

[Shunya]

12 minutes ago, shortbread said:

Didn't want to go through 4 pages of the stuff........but is Dhoni still to blame?

 

I also wonder with that appalling technique how exactly did he score all those runs the previous tours?! There is nothing in Dhoni's technique, foot work or anything that looks like he would make it past 5 balls vs Anderson & co. But somehow he did when everything was falling apart.

 

At this moment India would give anything for a guy who averages 37+ in England and scored eight test 50s here to come in at no.6!

True. That is something we will always miss. Blaming captains will go on forever. Ganguly, Dhoni, Kohli everyone had their ups n downs and it will continue in future as well. But another keeper+bat like Dhoni is not easy to come. We were mediocre before him and we are still mediocre after him.

[Austin 3:!6]

MS Dhoni avgs 37 in Eng with 8 test 50s. Present sooperstar batsmen would do good if they can emulate that.

[Trichromatic]

1 minute ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

MS Dhoni avgs 37 in Eng with 8 test 50s. Present sooperstar batsmen would do good if they can emulate that.

Kohli averages 26 and people have already declared him better than SRT.

[Switchblade]

25 minutes ago, Shunya said:

It might be bro but doesn’t change the fact that even at that time we lost badly

[jalebi_bhai]

24 minutes ago, shortbread said:

Didn't want to go through 4 pages of the stuff........but is Dhoni still to blame?

 

I also wonder with that appalling technique how exactly did he score all those runs the previous tours?! There is nothing in Dhoni's technique, foot work or anything that looks like he would make it past 5 balls vs Anderson & co. But somehow he did when everything was falling apart.

 

At this moment India would give anything for a guy who averages 37+ in England and scored eight test 50s here to come in at no.6!

 

Definitely.

 

Captaincy is a leadership/managerial role and in any professional team oriented environment, the manager/leader of the team is accountable for the team's performance, good or bad. For example, what happens in football when a team fails to meet targets? Manager/coach gets sacked. 

 

Like Dhoni was back then, Kohli and current team management are definitely responsible for the current failures. Make no mistake, Kohli's current failures doesn't and shouldn't absolve Dhoni of any blame for his past failures.  

[Austin 3:!6]

4 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

 

Definitely.

 

Captaincy is a leadership/managerial role and in any professional team oriented environment, the manager/leader of the team is accountable for the team's performance, good or bad. For example, what happens in football when a team fails to meet targets? Manager/coach gets sacked. 

 

Like Dhoni was back then, Kohli and current team management are definitely responsible for the current failures. Make no mistake, Kohli's current failures doesn't and shouldn't absolve Dhoni of any blame for his past failures.  

Accountable yes but responsible no. This team has glaring technical deficiencies in swinging conditions. I know as a skipper, Kohli will never accept it like he didn't yesterday in PC but its a fact. IPL have ruined their technique against moving balls. Anderson can dismiss Vijay even in his sleep. You can change 100s of captains and coaches, result will still be the same.

[Clarke]

There seems to be an implicit bias in this comparison. Why not compare 2011 & 2018 instead of 2014. 2011 was Dhoni's first Eng tour as captain, ditto for Kohli now. Both had the previous experience of playing under a previous captain in Eng. 

 

Besides, if one's keen on discussing overs/days, its easy to look at margins of defeat as well. 

 

2011 Test 1: Eng won by 196 runs

2018 Test 1: Eng won by 31 runs

 

2011 Test 2: Eng won by 319 runs

2018 Test 2: Eng won by innings & 159 runs

 

2011 Test 3: Eng won by an innings & 242 runs

2011 Test 4: Eng won by an innings & 8 runs

 

I'm not seeing any superiority of Dhoni's team despite having Dravid and some veterans while Kohli is  carrying stubborn passengers who refuse to adapt & perform. I'd pick a Sachin/Laxman of 2011 ahead of current lot any day. I'll concede that Eng of 2011 was a better batting line up than now so that somewhat balances things.

 

If Kohli picks Dhawan & Kuldeep, Dhoni fecked up royally as well in picking Raina & RP in tests then. Both of them ensured a yes man of a coach. They also lost their primary bowlers due to IPL being a higher priority for Zaheer or Bhuvi. Bumrah's injury has been another loss.

 

Virtually everyone here is a critic of Kohli's captaincy including his supporters. But this never ending or newly found love for Dhoni's test captaincy/leadership is illogical & ridiculous. 

[jalebi_bhai]

3 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Accountable yes but responsible no. 

 

Explain the difference please because google chacha tells me that they are the same thing.

 

7 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

 This team has glaring technical deficiencies in swinging conditions. I know as a skipper, Kohli will never accept it like he didn't yesterday in PC but its a fact. IPL have ruined their technique against moving balls. Anderson can dismiss Vijay even in his sleep. You can change 100s of captains and coaches, result will still be the same.

 

Agree with the technique and Vijay part but not the final bit.

 

Look, if the captain and coach decide to pick players who are not good enough to play in the respective conditions, is it the players' fault that they are being picked? Do you expect the players to tell the captain and coach that "I'm not good enough"? Come on. Fault the players for their personal failure but the responsibility of the collective failure will almost always be on the leadership as they are the ones who pick the team.

 

What will be the next line of logic? We don't have any good players? If that's the case then don''t tour. Ghar mein baithke taali bajao.

[SK_IH]

6 minutes ago, Clarke said:

There seems to be an implicit bias in this comparison. Why not compare 2011 & 2018 instead of 2014. 2011 was Dhoni's first Eng tour as captain, ditto for Kohli now. Both had the previous experience of playing under a previous captain in Eng. 

 

Besides, if one's keen on discussing overs/days, its easy to look at margins of defeat as well. 

 

2011 Test 1: Eng won by 196 runs

2018 Test 1: Eng won by 31 runs

 

2011 Test 2: Eng won by 319 runs

2018 Test 2: Eng won by innings & 159 runs

 

2011 Test 3: Eng won by an innings & 242 runs

2011 Test 4: Eng won by an innings & 8 runs

 

I'm not seeing any superiority of Dhoni's team despite having Dravid and some veterans while Kohli is  carrying stubborn passengers who refuse to adapt & perform. I'd pick a Sachin/Laxman of 2011 ahead of current lot any day. I'll concede that Eng of 2011 was a better batting line up than now so that somewhat balances things.

 

If Kohli picks Dhawan & Kuldeep, Dhoni fecked up royally as well in picking Raina & RP in tests then. Both of them ensured a yes man of a coach. They also lost their primary bowlers due to IPL being a higher priority for Zaheer or Bhuvi. Bumrah's injury has been another loss.

 

Virtually everyone here is a critic of Kohli's captaincy including his supporters. But this never ending or newly found love for Dhoni's test captaincy/leadership is illogical & ridiculous. 

i think there i no love lost in so far as Dhoni's test captaincy goes but there is great sense of disillusionment among fans regarding Kohli the captain, who is just continuing the status quo

as per my understanding, the implicit gist of this thread is Kohli making all supposed regulars fidgety with great inconsistency in selection

[raki05]

17 hours ago, speedheat said:

Bhai... Oops sorry bot.. tu thoda door he reh isss discussion se, tere se nai hone wala 

Arey yaar He understand machine language, especially the one I discovered lately and the one you typically use. " Huurrrrrrrr " or " Abba jabba dabba"

[raki05]

1 hour ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Accountable yes but responsible no. This team has glaring technical deficiencies in swinging conditions. I know as a skipper, Kohli will never accept it like he didn't yesterday in PC but its a fact. IPL have ruined their technique against moving balls. Anderson can dismiss Vijay even in his sleep. You can change 100s of captains and coaches, result will still be the same.

But pujara doesn't play Ipl, what abt rahane he was playing in ipl even before his test debut...

[Shunya]

1 hour ago, Clarke said:

There seems to be an implicit bias in this comparison. Why not compare 2011 & 2018 instead of 2014. 2011 was Dhoni's first Eng tour as captain, ditto for Kohli now. Both had the previous experience of playing under a previous captain in Eng. 

 

Besides, if one's keen on discussing overs/days, its easy to look at margins of defeat as well. 

 

2011 Test 1: Eng won by 196 runs

2018 Test 1: Eng won by 31 runs

 

2011 Test 2: Eng won by 319 runs

2018 Test 2: Eng won by innings & 159 runs

 

2011 Test 3: Eng won by an innings & 242 runs

2011 Test 4: Eng won by an innings & 8 runs

 

I'm not seeing any superiority of Dhoni's team despite having Dravid and some veterans while Kohli is  carrying stubborn passengers who refuse to adapt & perform. I'd pick a Sachin/Laxman of 2011 ahead of current lot any day. I'll concede that Eng of 2011 was a better batting line up than now so that somewhat balances things.

 

If Kohli picks Dhawan & Kuldeep, Dhoni fecked up royally as well in picking Raina & RP in tests then. Both of them ensured a yes man of a coach. They also lost their primary bowlers due to IPL being a higher priority for Zaheer or Bhuvi. Bumrah's injury has been another loss.

 

Virtually everyone here is a critic of Kohli's captaincy including his supporters. But this never ending or newly found love for Dhoni's test captaincy/leadership is illogical & ridiculous. 

So that also means that there was bias in calling Kohli as best Test captain ever and someone who changed the fortunes of Indian cricket with his aggression and what not. That exaggerated love for kohli and hatred for Dhoni is illogical & ridiculous. All that matters in the end is result and how much you have won. Seems like Kohli is not as good as he was made out to be in past 3 yrs. People associated his batting exploits with his captaincy but it seems illogical and ridiculous.

Hope Kohli can turn it around. Afterall its very easy to surpass Dhoni in Tests and they have the benefit of history to be learnt from. LOIs success is going to be a huge mountain for him to climb. Tests he had a good start and now faltering at the first sign of challenge.

1 hour ago, Clarke said:

There seems to be an implicit bias in this comparison. Why not compare 2011 & 2018 instead of 2014. 2011 was Dhoni's first Eng tour as captain, ditto for Kohli now. Both had the previous experience of playing under a previous captain in Eng. 

 

BTW, Dhoni has already won one & drew one series in SENA in his first 3 years as captain before going to England. And just like Kohli had every other series at home and against other random minnows. So the myth that Kohli has done wonders as test captain also seems like some sort of bias.

[jusarrived]

10 hours ago, Pollack said:

If you don't trust a 'fast' bowler like Yadav because he is erratic then you don't have to go back to trundlers. You don't have to call back your holidaying buddy for trundling.He should have kept trying some fast medium Pacers from domestics.

I ave already said , Dhoni relied a lot more on spinners and medium pacers than he should have , but the only "fast bowler" around in his days was Yadav , Shami always played when he was not injured  . Who else was there back then ? We probably have more pacers coming up these days , has Virat given anyone an opportunity ? Dhoni was flawed in in his handling of fast bowlers , but what makes Virat any better ? 

[Clarke]

5 hours ago, Shunya said:

So that also means that there was bias in calling Kohli as best Test captain ever and someone who changed the fortunes of Indian cricket with his aggression and what not. That exaggerated love for kohli and hatred for Dhoni is illogical & ridiculous. All that matters in the end is result and how much you have won. Seems like Kohli is not as good as he was made out to be in past 3 yrs. People associated his batting exploits with his captaincy but it seems illogical and ridiculous.

Hope Kohli can turn it around. Afterall its very easy to surpass Dhoni in Tests and they have the benefit of history to be learnt from. LOIs success is going to be a huge mountain for him to climb. Tests he had a good start and now faltering at the first sign of challenge.

BTW, Dhoni has already won one & drew one series in SENA in his first 3 years as captain before going to England. And just like Kohli had every other series at home and against other random minnows. So the myth that Kohli has done wonders as test captain also seems like some sort of bias.

 

6 hours ago, SK_IH said:

i think there i no love lost in so far as Dhoni's test captaincy goes but there is great sense of disillusionment among fans regarding Kohli the captain, who is just continuing the status quo

as per my understanding, the implicit gist of this thread is Kohli making all supposed regulars fidgety with great inconsistency in selection

 

Quoting both of ya

 

Whether Kohli gets D+ and Dhoni gets C- on a scale of A to F is not something I fancy debating. They both have some strengths and major weaknesses is my primary point, and that Dhoni doesn't have much of a leadership legacy that needed destroying.