Is Captain/Management still to blame for Rahane's failures

[zen]

As I wrote on the match thread - "Vihari is knocking on Rahane's door" .... Ranahe has to pick his game up to be considered 

[Gollum]

Root cause of Rahane's problem is his atrocious game against spin. His continuous non-performance at home has wrecked his confidence.

[chewy]

What, lol? Rahane failures should be attributed to capt/management?

 

But Pujara, Rahul, Rohit, Ishant, Pandya, get abuse right/left for not being good enough or poor form?

 

Problem with Rahane seems, pressure, seems unable to deliver when under the pump, same in ODIs

[Tibarn]

5 hours ago, Gollum said:

We have played on max 6 rank turners at home post 2011 WC. This rank turner nonsense is a figment of imagination, propounded by those who want to downplay our home dominance.Eng, SA, NZ have probably played on 6-7 green tops at home in the last 7 years, and that is a conservative estimate. Only Australian pitches have been consistently good for batting...suits their strength that way.

I mentioned turners in the quoted post in the context of the deterioration of batting conditions within India. I didn't state that we are playing on exclusively minefields or that we are utilizing "unfair" pitches to a greater degree than other teams. It's only natural that Aussies, Poms, et al will create pitches that suit them. We should be no different. They are free to whinge as much as they want when we do similar things to what they do.

 

However, I don't think it is unfair to state again, the types of pitches we play on have indeed changed in nature. Maybe not every match/pitch, but it does seem to be a trend. 

 

Here is a record of every series played in India vs the other top 8 teams which concluded with an average of less than 30

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=6;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=team_average;qualmax1=30;qualmin1=0;qualval1=team_average;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team;view=series

 

This is the from this century

Series averages

Team	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS	Start Date		Winner
Sri Lanka	3	0	1	0	2	0.000	27.15	2.95	6	373	166	16 Nov 2017		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2017/18
Australia	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	26.64	2.81	8	451	112	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
India	4	2	1	0	1	2.000	28.13	2.88	7	603	105	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
New Zealand	3	0	3	0	0	0.000	22.51	2.98	6	299	153	22 Sep 2016		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2016/17
India	4	3	0	0	1	-	26.72	2.89	7	334	173	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
South Africa	4	0	3	0	1	0.000	14.78	2.14	7	214	79	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
West Indies	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.27	3.28	4	234	168	6 Nov 2013		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2013/14
Australia	4	0	4	0	0	0.000	25.89	2.66	8	408	131	22 Feb 2013		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2012/13
New Zealand	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	23.40	3.07	4	365	159	23 Aug 2012		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2012
Sri Lanka	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	25.00	2.94	5	249	206	2 Dec 2005		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2005/06
India	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	22.48	2.76	8	376	104	6 Oct 2004		Australia
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2004/05
West Indies	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	24.76	2.61	5	497	157	9 Oct 2002		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2002/03
India	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.12	2.38	4	250	113	24 Feb 2000		South Africa

 

Since 2012( when we returned from our whitewashings overseas): in that 6 year period until now we've had 9 series with sub 30 series average. In the other 12 years of this century there were 4 total.  Between 2005-2012, there was not a single series like that. That period includes when MSD's team held the #1 spot for 21 months between 2009-2011.

 

From this data, I don't think my original statement is unfair: 

Quote

There are way too many minefields we play on at home over the last 5-6 years. Our spinners are making merry at home, but our batsmen lack the ability to get out of a rut at home now, it seems. 

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Tibarn

[Khota]

This one is on Rahane. No one else can be blamed for this.

[Trichromatic]

He played decent hand in 2 wins in last 4 tests overseas.

 

 

[Moochad]

36 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I mentioned turners in the quoted post in the context of the deterioration of batting conditions within India. I didn't state that we are playing on exclusively minefields or that we are utilizing "unfair" pitches to a greater degree than other teams. It's only natural that Aussies, Poms, et al will create pitches that suit them. We should be no different. They are free to whinge as much as they want when we do similar things to what they do.

 

However, I don't think it is unfair to state again, the types of pitches we play on have indeed changed in nature. Maybe not every match/pitch(which I never claimed), but it does seem to be a trend. 

 

Here is a record of every series played in India vs the other top 8 teams which concluded with an average of less than 30

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=6;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=team_average;qualmax1=30;qualmin1=0;qualval1=team_average;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team;view=series

 

This is the from this century

Series averages

Team	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS	Start Date		Winner
Sri Lanka	3	0	1	0	2	0.000	27.15	2.95	6	373	166	16 Nov 2017		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2017/18
Australia	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	26.64	2.81	8	451	112	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
India	4	2	1	0	1	2.000	28.13	2.88	7	603	105	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
New Zealand	3	0	3	0	0	0.000	22.51	2.98	6	299	153	22 Sep 2016		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2016/17
India	4	3	0	0	1	-	26.72	2.89	7	334	173	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
South Africa	4	0	3	0	1	0.000	14.78	2.14	7	214	79	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
West Indies	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.27	3.28	4	234	168	6 Nov 2013		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2013/14
Australia	4	0	4	0	0	0.000	25.89	2.66	8	408	131	22 Feb 2013		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2012/13
New Zealand	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	23.40	3.07	4	365	159	23 Aug 2012		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2012
Sri Lanka	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	25.00	2.94	5	249	206	2 Dec 2005		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2005/06
India	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	22.48	2.76	8	376	104	6 Oct 2004		Australia
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2004/05
West Indies	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	24.76	2.61	5	497	157	9 Oct 2002		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2002/03
India	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.12	2.38	4	250	113	24 Feb 2000		South Africa

 

Since 2012( when we returned from our whitewashings overseas): in that 6 year period until now we've had 9 series with sub 30 series average. In the other 12 years of this century there were 4 total.  Between 2005-2012, there was not a single series like that. That period includes when MSD's team held the #1 spot for 21 months between 2009-2011.

 

From this data, I don't think my original statement is unfair: 

 

Interesting stats as usual. 

 

I know your post was in general regards to Indian batting, but I think it supports my theory with regards to Rahane that he looks like a bad player of spin because of his batting position in India home matches: 

1) He averages over 50 for Mumbai in domestics, there is no way he does that if he doesn't know how to play spin

2) The best time to bat in India on an turning track is as an opener where you can get your eye in and handle spinners. Rahane comes in at 5, long after the best batting conditons vs spin are gone

3) He has a better avg vs spin than pace and we already know he is our 2nd best overseas bat after Kohli, based on past record at least

Dismissal summary

Grouping	Span	Dis	bwd	c fie	c wk	st	lbw	hw	ro	oth	no	Ave	0s
right-arm bowler	2013-2018	57	5	31	9	1	11	0	0	0	0	31.36	5
left-arm bowler	2014-2018	17	4	7	2	2	2	0	0	0	0	44.88	0
pace bowler	2013-2018	37	2	17	10	0	8	0	0	0	0	33.51	2
spin bowler	2013-2018	37	7	21	1	3	5	0	0	0	0	35.43	3

 

 

I mean I understand that if he fails he should lose his spot, but the same has to be said for Rahul otherwise people are just biased

 

[Tibarn]

4 minutes ago, Moochad said:

3) He has a better avg vs spin than pace and we already know he is our 2nd best overseas bat after Kohli, based on past record at least

That's an interesting find. 35 vs spin and 33 vs pace. That implies that he is roughly, equally competent against both.

 

The problem is he doesn't dominate either.

 

Also his overall career avg of 41 is partly because he doesn't score big 100s.  

 

I think what you said is very plausible, that he would look better vs spin if he was pushed up the order. That's a bit of common knowledge that openers have the best conditions to bat in India.

14 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I mean I understand that if he fails he should lose his spot, but the same has to be said for Rahul otherwise people are just biased

100% agree. I was saying something similar here

6 hours ago, Tibarn said:

The thing is it's not just Rahane. Vijay, Pujara, Rahul, Dhawan have all underwhelmed as well. Some people are just stuck on Rahane (for whatever reason). 

 

Of the 5 batsmen listed, only Pujara can be said to have improved his stature this series. All the 4 others have lost luster this series, at least to me.

 

Vijay has done nothing this series, but he should still be considered for the Aussie series imo. He will have time to regain his discipline and there is less lateral movement in Australia, so he still has a chance to perform well there(although I don't think he should play in NZ).

 

Dhawan continues to be poor overseas. We need a long term opening option to replace him. He doesn't have many backers on ICF, so there is a general consensus that he should be replaced soon.  

 

Rahane has been pretty atrocious for the last ~2 years, although most of that was his batting at home(where your spin hypothesis comes in). At the same time, he has been our 2nd best overseas bat, as you said based on past record.  

 

Rahul has literally failed worse than Dhawan in both key overseas tours: SA(an average of 8[Dhawan avg 18]) and England (an average of 16 [Dhawan avg 24]), yet he gets a pass and apologia on the various grounds: "he is talented", "is a youngster", "has a great technique".  

 

Of the 4, Rahul has the worst previous record of them all, and only Vijay is particularly old. Your a noob on here, but people were advocating replacing Dhawan/Rohit in the ODI team with him. I mean, people call Rohit "tailunt", but then what do you call Rahul?

(I am saying all this as someone who [wrongly] thought that Rahul would set the world on fire on this overseas sojourn).  

 

By all means, drop Rahane and replace him with Vihari, but this idea that Rahul shouldn't also be replaced by another talented domestic star is preposterous to me. 

 

 

[Moochad]

3 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

That's an interesting find. 35 vs spin and 33 vs pace. That implies that he is roughly, equally competent against both.

 

The problem is he doesn't dominate either.

 

Also his overall career avg of 41 is partly because he doesn't score big 100s.  

But that is also possibly b/c of his batting position. Rahul and Vijay in comparison average in the 40-50 range vs spinners, but they are openers in India. I think Rahane would also be in that category if we flipped their batting positions. 

 

Even the daddy hundreds are harder to score in India from a lower order position. 

6 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

Rahul has literally failed worse than Dhawan in both key overseas tours: SA(an average of 8[Dhawan avg 18]) and England (an average of 16 [Dhawan avg 24]), yet he gets a pass and apologia on the various grounds: "he is talented", "is a youngster", "has a great technique". 

Youngster stuff doesn't pass. He is 26, its not like he is Pant or Sachin who debuted as teenagers. 

 

He can be dropped and score more runs for Karnataka and then come back into the side later. Being dropped from the squad for once doesn't end his career either.

10 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

By all means, drop Rahane and replace him with Vihari, but this idea that Rahul shouldn't also be replaced by another talented domestic star is preposterous to me.

 

Exactly replace all 4 of them failures. If we are going to go with a youth movement, then let's also id a talented youngster for Rahul's spot as well. 

 

[Tibarn]

1 minute ago, Moochad said:

But that is also possibly b/c of his batting position. Rahul and Vijay in comparison average in the 40-50 range vs spinners, but they are openers in India. I think Rahane would also be in that category if we flipped their batting positions. 

 

Even the daddy hundreds are harder to score in India from a lower order position. 

I see what you are saying, and I agree with that partly as well.

 

However, I have noticed that Rahane has a different gear he goes into as soon as he gets to a 100. It's like he thinks the job is done as soon as he gets a 100 and starts accelerating/upping his SR. I distinctly remember that happening in Australia.  

[Moochad]

9 minutes ago, Tibarn said:

I see what you are saying, and I agree with that partly as well.

 

However, I have noticed that Rahane has a different gear he goes into as soon as he gets to a 100. It's like he thinks the job is done as soon as he gets a 100 and starts accelerating/upping his SR. I distinctly remember that happening in Australia.  

I think those are eyes being deceiving.  He plays at a good SR regardless. Maybe he should take a page from Pujara's book.

[Tibarn]

32 minutes ago, Moochad said:

I think those are eyes being deceiving.  He plays at a good SR regardless. Maybe he should take a page from Pujara's book.

Agree to disagree...

 

Regarding Pujara:

I don't think so. I doubt Rahane can defend as well as Pujara. Pujara also has to improve before the Aussie series. 

 

Most of the Pom bowlers are trundlers who can't test Pujara's reflexes. The Aussies are at least 2 yards faster which can be a weakness of Pujara (he can get bowled).

[Gollum]

8 hours ago, Tibarn said:

I mentioned turners in the quoted post in the context of the deterioration of batting conditions within India. I didn't state that we are playing on exclusively minefields or that we are utilizing "unfair" pitches to a greater degree than other teams. It's only natural that Aussies, Poms, et al will create pitches that suit them. We should be no different. They are free to whinge as much as they want when we do similar things to what they do.

 

However, I don't think it is unfair to state again, the types of pitches we play on have indeed changed in nature. Maybe not every match/pitch, but it does seem to be a trend. 

 

Here is a record of every series played in India vs the other top 8 teams which concluded with an average of less than 30

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;host=6;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=team_average;qualmax1=30;qualmin1=0;qualval1=team_average;team=1;team=2;team=3;team=4;team=5;team=6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=team;view=series

 

This is the from this century

Series averages

Team	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS	Start Date		Winner
Sri Lanka	3	0	1	0	2	0.000	27.15	2.95	6	373	166	16 Nov 2017		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2017/18
Australia	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	26.64	2.81	8	451	112	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
India	4	2	1	0	1	2.000	28.13	2.88	7	603	105	23 Feb 2017		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2016/17
New Zealand	3	0	3	0	0	0.000	22.51	2.98	6	299	153	22 Sep 2016		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2016/17
India	4	3	0	0	1	-	26.72	2.89	7	334	173	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
South Africa	4	0	3	0	1	0.000	14.78	2.14	7	214	79	5 Nov 2015		India
Freedom Trophy (South Africa in India), 2015/16
West Indies	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.27	3.28	4	234	168	6 Nov 2013		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2013/14
Australia	4	0	4	0	0	0.000	25.89	2.66	8	408	131	22 Feb 2013		India
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2012/13
New Zealand	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	23.40	3.07	4	365	159	23 Aug 2012		India
New Zealand in India Test Series, 2012
Sri Lanka	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	25.00	2.94	5	249	206	2 Dec 2005		India
Sri Lanka in India Test Series, 2005/06
India	4	1	2	0	1	0.500	22.48	2.76	8	376	104	6 Oct 2004		Australia
Border-Gavaskar Trophy (Australia in India), 2004/05
West Indies	3	0	2	0	1	0.000	24.76	2.61	5	497	157	9 Oct 2002		India
West Indies in India Test Series, 2002/03
India	2	0	2	0	0	0.000	19.12	2.38	4	250	113	24 Feb 2000		South Africa

 

Since 2012( when we returned from our whitewashings overseas): in that 6 year period until now we've had 9 series with sub 30 series average. In the other 12 years of this century there were 4 total.  Between 2005-2012, there was not a single series like that. That period includes when MSD's team held the #1 spot for 21 months between 2009-2011.

 

From this data, I don't think my original statement is unfair: 

 

@Tibarn I agree the wickets now aren't as dead as in the 2005-12 period. It is a worldwide phenomenon, we had so many 50+ averaging batsmen in that period but right now normalcy has been restored.

 

Regarding your table about <30 average of top 8 teams in India...methinks it is a flawed approach in this particular context. Sri Lanka in 2017 finished with <30 average but that was because of the Eden green top in the 1st test. Aus 2017 (2 tests) or SA 2015 (2 tests)...point taken. NZ in 2016 had a greentop in Eden which featured the lowest scores. In that series we simply overwhelmed them, we got big scores and our spinners were too good. Only the Kanpur test was a turner, rest of the series didn't help spinners much. In 2011-12 when we toured Eng-Aus and got blanked 0-8 remember the scores? Opponents would score 600-700 while we never threatened 300...can you call those pitches difficult? We were simply rubbish in that stretch while Eng and Aus were ruthless, pitch had nothing to do with the disparity. Similarly in some of the series at home we were too good and made visitors look 2nd class...can't simply look at the stats. Aus and WI in 2013 averaged under 30 in India but we dominated with the bat, scoring multiple 100s and hardly needing to bat the 2nd time. How can those be examples of deterioration of batting conditions?

 

Again not disagreeing with the general sentiment of your argument. However the change isn't that drastic..good batsmen continue to thrive on Indian pitches. Kohli averages 60 and Pujara close to 70 in these same conditions. Visiting batsmen who were willing to show grit too have done well here. More than the pitch I believe the quality of Indian bowling has had a huge say on the scores we have seen here. We have 2 premium spinners (who are lethal in these conditions )and our best pace battery, we have made visitors look much worse than they are.

[jf1gp_1]

Thanks to Manju people now hate Rahane