Viv Richards: I'd pick Sachin over Lara

[velu]

30 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

I am yet to see a player who is 100% selfless. Have seen batsmen jumping with joy once they achieves the 100 mark . So you means??

dravid

[putrevus]

11 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Lara might win you 1-2 max 3 matches with his individual brilliance on his day but he will lose you badly as well with his string of failures.  SRT brought that consistency that is why we could more games as a team, he may not have won them single handedly but we still won more games.

I am not looking for steady eddy like Tendulkar in my team. My team would have match winners who don't have to fire all at time to win me matches.I don't need a guy to play 24 years to pile up meaningless records.

 

Tendulkar's consistency  allowed to win what matches again?? 

[sandeep]

On 12/12/2018 at 7:25 AM, goose said:

Exactly. Sadly there is no stat that captures his consistency, the jaw drop silence on rare occasion he failed and THAT is what the world was in awe of.

They don't know what they missed.  

[zen]

Lara retired after scoring 11,953 runs. If a certain someone was in similar situation, he would have played on till he got 12k runs, encouraged by various delusional quarters 

 

PS Lara in his last test series 

 

Records type batting analysis [change type]

View career summary [change view]

Opposition team Pakistan

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2006

Ordered by default (ascending)

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	19753	60.51	34	48	17	1559	88	Profile
filtered	3	5	0	448	216	89.60	677	66.17	2	1	1	58	7

Edited December 13, 2018 by zen

[velu]

59 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

 

 i  agreed .... Sachin was selfish....

selfish from 90 to 100 .. rest of the time he is fine

[Muloghonto]

8 hours ago, rkt.india said:

dead rubbers

?!?

More runs is not automatically greatest. 375 and 400* came in dead rubbers. His greatest innings, 153* came in the 3rd test of the series, with the series score being 1-1. 3rd test of a 4 test series, with scores tied at 1-1 is anything BUT a dead-rubber. 

The other ones are a bit up for grabs out of a few, but my choice is the 213 from the prior test of the series. WI were 0-1 down. Same amazing bowlers. Track was a typically fast and seaming Sabina park. WI had shot out a strong Aussie batting lineup for 256. Lara was under a lot of pressure- hadn't scored a ton in nearly 2 years. This was his 'i dont care, i am the king' mentality phase, where he'd keep on getting out in the 30s and 40s, which is very atypical for his career. Came in at 5/2. Score immediately after, went to 4/34. He took them to a dominant position at around 380 when he got out, WI 130 ahead with wickets in hand. With Ambrose-Walsh as the vaunted 2nd innings bowlers. That, by almost any objective benchmark, is also a pressure innings and he did brillantly. 

[Muloghonto]

38 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not looking for steady eddy like Tendulkar in my team. My team would have match winners who don't have to fire all at time to win me matches.I don't need a guy to play 24 years to pile up meaningless records.

 

Tendulkar's consistency  allowed to win what matches again?? 

Tendy was not a steady eddy in his prime, he was a destroyer of bowlers. Scoring 113-130 etc. in an era where 300 is the par score of a first innings match, while utterly annihilating the opposition bowling at a pace 30-40% faster than the whole team's is not a steady eddy player. 

A steady eddy is a guy like Chanderpaul of THAT era. hard to get out once in, will tuk-tuk his way to 70-90 runs, will have a few near misses/look vulnerable for periods and pull through, etc. 

 

You wanting people who do 0,5,275,0,10,15 is making an inferior team, period, because winning teams are always based on consistency of performers over time. But hey, if you want to create the WWE version of a cricket team instead of an actual Olympic greco-roman wrestler, thats your perogative.

[Jimmy Cliff]

35 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not looking for steady eddy like Tendulkar in my team. My team would have match winners who don't have to fire all at time to win me matches.I don't need a guy to play 24 years to pile up meaningless records.

 

Tendulkar's consistency  allowed to win what matches again?? 

[zen]

And since this is a Lara vs Tendulkar thread 

 

 

 

 

[zen]

Summary:

 

• Tests = Lara
• ODIs = Tendulkar
• Tests + ODIs (a batsman for multiple formats) = Tendulkar

Edited December 13, 2018 by zen

[Jimmy Cliff]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Ind has a culture where personal gains are given a priority over the welfare of community. For e.g. we clean our house and immediately throw the garbage on streets, we hoard black money and proudly evade taxes, we can destroy the environment to avail short term benefits, we keep producing w/o doing much to for the future of new generation, and so on. So it is not a surprise that meaningless records such as 100 100s and the pursuit of personal stats are given a priority. Players are even kept in the side to allow them to complete 200 tests. Players who do that are seen as big heros by many   

There are many who consider dead rubber bashers as heroes. Some of them also happen to be fans of someone who scored 36(174) in a World Cup game and scored 8(54) in a chase against a weak Australian side denying India a rare series win down under. These folks then have the cheek to call Sachin selfish .

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

There are many who consider dead rubber bashers as heroes. Some of them also happen to be fans of someone who scored 36(174) in a World Cup game and scored 8(54) in a chase against a weak Australian side denying India a rare series win down under. These folks then have the cheek to call Sachin selfish .

My fav Ind batsman is Sehwag .... Others I am more or less neutral about. At times, I support the best available option among the choices .... Even though Sehwag is my fav Ind test batsman, Gavaskar will be my first pick batsman for an Ind ATG Test 11 based on him being better than others including a top 5 ATG batsman (others being Bradman, Sobers, Richards and Lara)  

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

6 minutes ago, zen said:

And since this is a Lara vs Tendulkar thread 

 

 

 

 

SR is for bowlers in Tests as Kumble mentioned. Otherwise Kapil (81 * 31) > Sunny (44 * 52) in Tests . And Sehwag and Gilly >> Lara!

[sandeep]

25 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Tendy was not a steady eddy in his prime, he was a destroyer of bowlers. Scoring 113-130 etc. in an era where 300 is the par score of a first innings match, while utterly annihilating the opposition bowling at a pace 30-40% faster than the whole team's is not a steady eddy player. 

A steady eddy is a guy like Chanderpaul of THAT era. hard to get out once in, will tuk-tuk his way to 70-90 runs, will have a few near misses/look vulnerable for periods and pull through, etc. 

 

You wanting people who do 0,5,275,0,10,15 is making an inferior team, period, because winning teams are always based on consistency of performers over time. But hey, if you want to create the WWE version of a cricket team instead of an actual Olympic greco-roman wrestler, thats your perogative.

Don't waste your time with someone who's just blindly repeating ignorant "matchwinner" tropes.  

[Jimmy Cliff]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

My fav Ind batsman is Sehwag .... Others I am more or less neutral about. At times, I support the best available option among the choices .... Even though Sehwag is my fav Ind test batsman, Gavaskar will be my first pick batsman for an Ind ATG Test 11 based on him being better than others including a top 5 ATG batsman (others being Bradman, Sobers, Richards and Lara)  

 

Interesting. But why would you pick Gavaskar ahead of Sehwag if Viru gives you pretty much the same number of runs per innings at a way better SR? Does Viru's higher Avg * SR not count here?

[zen]

Just now, Jimmy Cliff said:

SR is for bowlers in Tests as Kumble mentioned. Otherwise Kapil (81 * 31) > Sunny (44 * 52) in Tests . And Sehwag and Gilly >> Lara!

We are doing this between similar batsmen (not randomly)   .... if we have to go certain parameters, there are a number of batsmen who avg higher than Tendulkar for e.g.

 

View overall figures [change view]

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 16

Showing 1 - 50 of 793

First Previous

Next  Last

Return to query menu Cleared query menu

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
DG Bradman (AUS)	1928-1948	52	80	10	6996	334	99.94	29	13	7
AC Voges (AUS)	2015-2016	20	31	7	1485	269*	61.87	5	4	2
SPD Smith (AUS)	2010-2018	64	117	16	6199	239	61.37	23	24	4
RG Pollock (SA)	1963-1970	23	41	4	2256	274	60.97	7	11	1
GA Headley (WI)	1930-1954	22	40	4	2190	270*	60.83	10	5	2
H Sutcliffe (ENG)	1924-1935	54	84	9	4555	194	60.73	16	23	2
E Paynter (ENG)	1931-1939	20	31	5	1540	243	59.23	4	7	3
KF Barrington (ENG)	1955-1968	82	131	15	6806	256	58.67	20	35	5
ED Weekes (WI)	1948-1958	48	81	5	4455	207	58.61	15	19	6
WR Hammond (ENG)	1927-1947	85	140	16	7249	336*	58.45	22	24	4
GS Sobers (WI)	1954-1974	93	160	21	8032	365*	57.78	26	30	12
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2015	134	233	17	12400	319	57.40	38	52	11
JB Hobbs (ENG)	1908-1930	61	102	7	5410	211	56.94	15	28	4
CL Walcott (WI)	1948-1960	44	74	7	3798	220	56.68	15	14	1
L Hutton (ENG)	1937-1955	79	138	15	6971	364	56.67	19	33	5
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1995-2013	166	280	40	13289	224	55.37	45	58	16
V Kohli (INDIA)	2011-2018	74	126	8	6368	243	53.96	24	19	7
GS Chappell (AUS)	1970-1984	87	151	19	7110	247*	53.86	24	31	12
AD Nourse (SA)	1935-1951	34	62	7	2960	231	53.81	9	14	3
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1989-2013	200	329	33	15921	248*	53.78	51	68	14
BC Lara (ICC/WI)	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	34	48	17
Javed Miandad (PAK)	1976-1993	124	189	21	8832	280*	52.57	23	43	6
R Dravid (ICC/INDIA)	1996-2012	164	286	32	13288	270	52.31	36	63	8
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	1998-2010	90	156	12	7530	223	52.29	24	33	11
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2017	118	213	19	10099	313	52.05	34	33	19
RT Ponting (AUS)	1995-2012	168	287	29	13378	257	51.85	41	62	17
J Ryder (AUS)	1920-1929	20	32	5	1394	201*	51.62	3	9	1
KS Williamson (NZ)	2010-2018	68	122	11	5724	242*	51.56	19	28	7
A Flower (ZIM)	1992-2002	63	112	19	4794	232*	51.54	12	27	5
MEK Hussey (AUS)	2005-2013	79	137	16	6235	195	51.52	19	29	12
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1994-2015	164	280	49	11867	203*	51.37	30	66	15
SM Gavaskar (INDIA)	1971-1987	125	214	16	10122	236*	51.12	34	45	12
SR Waugh (AUS)	1985-2004	168	260	46	10927	200	51.06	32	50	22
ML Hayden (AUS)	1994-2009	103	184	14	8625	380	50.73	30	29	14
AB de Villiers (SA)	2004-2018	114	191	18	8765	278*	50.66	22	46	8
AR Border (AUS)	1978-1994	156	265	44	11174	205	50.56	27	63	11
CA Pujara (INDIA)	2010-2018	65	109	8	5099	206*	50.48	16	20	5
JE Root (ENG)	2012-2018	77	141	12	6508	254	50.44	15	41	5
IVA Richards (WI)	1974-1991	121	182	12	8540	291	50.23	24	45	10
DCS Compton (ENG)	1937-1957	78	131	15	5807	278	50.06	17	28	10

 

 

[zen]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

Interesting. But why would you pick Gavaskar ahead of Sehwag if Viru gives you pretty much the same number of runs per innings at a way better SR? Does Viru's higher Avg * SR not count here?

Don't lose the plot so soon (made a post on Avg * SR for similar players) .... and esp when likes of Tendulkar don't score high on either avg or SR parameters among his peers .... For e.g. Sangara and Kallis both avg higher 

[Jimmy Cliff]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Don't lose the plot so soon (made a post on Avg * SR for similar players) .... and esp when likes of Tendulkar don't score high on either avg or SR parameters among his peers .... For e.g. Sangara and Kallis both avg higher 

How did I lose the plot? I never claimed Sachin's better average necessarily makes him a better player than everyone who averages below. You used the Average * SR metric here for Sachin and Lara. But somehow seem "shy" at using the same metric for Sunny and Viru even though both of them happen to be openers . Surely (49*82) >>> (51*44), no?

 

Is this because this a dubious metric in the 1st place for Tests or is it because Sunny happens to be your favorite selfish midget?

[zen]

1 minute ago, Jimmy Cliff said:

How did I lose the plot? I never claimed Sachin's better average necessarily makes him a better player than everyone who averages below. You used the Average * SR metric here for Sachin and Lara. But somehow seem "shy" at using the same metric for Sunny and Viru even though both of them happen to be openers . Surely (49*82) >>> (51*44), no?

 

Is this because this a dubious metric in the 1st place for Tests or is it because Sunny happens to be your favorite selfish midget?

Yes, when I am looking at similar players (surely, you realize that Kapil and Gavaskar are not similar players for e.g. .... Among selfish midgets, Gavaskar could be my fav player (but have not given much thought about it)  

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

Yes, when I am looking at similar players (surely, you realize that Kapil and Gavaskar are not similar players for e.g. .... Among selfish midgets, Gavaskar could be my fav player (but have not given much thought about it)  

 

Forget Kapil. How about Viru vs Sunny. Surely they are similar enough at least in terms of the roles if not style (openers for the best part of their careers who averaged around 50). Seems unfair to pick selfish Sunny who crawled at a SR in the 40s to swashbuckling unselfish Viru who didn't care for records and had a SR in the 80s .