zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said: He has to do it consistently going forward. His career stats are awful. I didn't even realize it was this bad. worst stats among the 100 wkts or more specialist bowlers club Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, zen said: worst stats among the 100 wkts or more specialist bowlers club Ishant Sharma had the "worst" stats in tests for quite a while, and regularly got mocked for his stats by ignorant 'fans', even though his performances and stats in the last 3 years are quality. Now everybody is slowly coming around to the fact that Ishant is a much improved bowler. Fans who understand the game, understand bowling, recognize the value that Bhuvi brings to the Indian LOI team. Edited January 15, 2019 by sandeep Clarke 1 Link to comment
zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, sandeep said: Ishant Sharma had the "worst" stats in tests for quite a while, and regularly got mocked for his stats by ignorant 'fans', even though his performances and stats in the last 3 years are quality. Now everybody is slowly coming around to the fact that Ishant is a much improved bowler. Fans who understand the game, understand bowling, recognize the value that Bhuvi brings to the Indian LOI team. ^ Nice bedtime story for the kids. I am sure it has a happy ending .... Fact: below are the stats since 1 Jan 2018 among those who played as the specialist bowlers View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 7 7 60.0 2 319 11 3/13 29.00 5.31 32.7 0 0 RA Jadeja 10 10 94.5 4 441 16 4/29 27.56 4.65 35.5 2 0 YS Chahal 17 17 156.1 3 754 29 5/22 26.00 4.82 32.3 1 1 Kuldeep Yadav 21 21 192.2 4 920 47 6/25 19.57 4.78 24.5 2 1 JJ Bumrah 13 13 100.5 9 366 22 4/35 16.63 3.62 27.5 1 0 ^ that includes his 4/45 Edited January 15, 2019 by zen raki05 1 Link to comment
Vilander Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 13 minutes ago, zen said: ^ Nice bedtime story for the kids. I am sure it has a happy ending .... Fact: below are the stats since 1 Jan 2018 among those who played as the specialist bowlers View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 7 7 60.0 2 319 11 3/13 29.00 5.31 32.7 0 0 RA Jadeja 10 10 94.5 4 441 16 4/29 27.56 4.65 35.5 2 0 YS Chahal 17 17 156.1 3 754 29 5/22 26.00 4.82 32.3 1 1 Kuldeep Yadav 21 21 192.2 4 920 47 6/25 19.57 4.78 24.5 2 1 JJ Bumrah 13 13 100.5 9 366 22 4/35 16.63 3.62 27.5 1 0 ^ that includes his 4/45 this is eye-opening stuff. I was expecting Bhuvi to be nestled somewhere between Chahal and Jadeja. disappointed. zen 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, zen said: ^ Nice bedtime story for the kids. I am sure it has a happy ending .... Fact: below are the stats since 1 Jan 2018 among those who played as the specialist bowlers View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 7 7 60.0 2 319 11 3/13 29.00 5.31 32.7 0 0 RA Jadeja 10 10 94.5 4 441 16 4/29 27.56 4.65 35.5 2 0 YS Chahal 17 17 156.1 3 754 29 5/22 26.00 4.82 32.3 1 1 Kuldeep Yadav 21 21 192.2 4 920 47 6/25 19.57 4.78 24.5 2 1 JJ Bumrah 13 13 100.5 9 366 22 4/35 16.63 3.62 27.5 1 0 ^ that includes his 4/45 Cricket isn't played with stats vs stats on paper. Like I said, his numbers will come around if he keeps performing the way he is at the moment. Bhuvi of the last 20 months is a much improved bowler. In today's age of 350 par scores, the numbers for bowlers can get inflated. Bhuvi 2.0 is a much better bowler than his numbers suggest. He was Man of the series in the T20 series against SA in SA just a few months ago. I'd be very interested in seeing what the 'par' economy rate was in those 16 games that he played. Bumrah is a goddam freak, so his presence will obviously skew things, but I'd still bet that Bhuvi's ER numbers come out to be comfortably better than the average. To simplify, Bhuvi's ER translates to a run-total of around 268 - and he bowls most if not all his overs in the highest risk slots - early powerplay and death. When the alternatives to Bhuvi are the likes of Siraj, Umesh, Shardul, Khaleel.... Edited January 15, 2019 by sandeep The Dark Horse 1 Link to comment
zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, sandeep said: Cricket isn't played with stats vs stats on paper. Like I said, his numbers will come around if he keeps performing the way he is at the moment. Bhuvi of the last 20 months is a much improved bowler. In today's age of 350 par scores, the numbers for bowlers can get inflated. Bhuvi 2.0 is a much better bowler than his numbers suggest. He was Man of the series in the T20 series against SA in SA just a few months ago. I'd be very interested in seeing what the 'par' economy rate was in those 16 games that he played. Bumrah is a goddam freak, so his presence will obviously skew things, but I'd still bet that Bhuvi's ER numbers come out to be comfortably better than the average. To simplify, Bhuvi's ER translates to a run-total of around 268 - and he bowls most if not all his overs in the highest risk slots - early powerplay and death. When the alternatives to Bhuvi are the likes of Siraj, Umesh, Shardul, Khaleel.... what are you talking about ..... do some research View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 5 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KM Jadhav 10 6 34.0 1 142 5 3/23 28.40 4.17 40.8 0 0 RA Jadeja 7 7 64.5 3 280 11 4/29 25.45 4.31 35.3 2 0 YS Chahal 12 12 106.1 3 518 21 5/22 24.66 4.87 30.3 1 1 KK Ahmed 5 5 40.0 1 210 9 3/13 23.33 5.25 26.6 0 0 Kuldeep Yadav 16 16 142.2 4 671 32 4/23 20.96 4.71 26.6 2 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 raki05 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, zen said: what are you talking about ..... do some research View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 5 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KM Jadhav 10 6 34.0 1 142 5 3/23 28.40 4.17 40.8 0 0 RA Jadeja 7 7 64.5 3 280 11 4/29 25.45 4.31 35.3 2 0 YS Chahal 12 12 106.1 3 518 21 5/22 24.66 4.87 30.3 1 1 KK Ahmed 5 5 40.0 1 210 9 3/13 23.33 5.25 26.6 0 0 Kuldeep Yadav 16 16 142.2 4 671 32 4/23 20.96 4.71 26.6 2 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 You clearly either didn't read what I wrote, or failed to understand. The stats that you post are average driven. Most ODI tracks are 330 par these days. You'd happily take a 10-1-53-1 from one of your bowlers that bowls Powerplay and death overs in that context. Or would you rather have 10-0-76-1 from a Siraj/Shardul/Umesh/Khaleel? Bhuvi provides the team with much-needed control in the powerplay overs. Consistently. Hardly ever gives freebie boundary balls. Bowling attacks hunt in packs, the control and discipline exerted by one bowler often results in wickets at the other end. For example Hardik Pandya - u know the 9th grade fail who you're besotted with? - his ODI bowling numbers benefit majorly from the presence of the likes of Bumrah, Bhuvi, KulCha around him. Because the opposition is forced to take extra risks against him. Just like how Moeen Ali's test numbers in England are really good - because the rest of the bowlers exert so much pressure and he is able to pick up wickets in bunches. Take away that consistent pressure from the rest of the England bowlers, in Indian conditions for eg, and what happens to Moeen? His stats take a nosedive into the underground sewer. A simpleton can draw foolish conclusions from Moeen's test stats at home though. That is why stats have to be understood with context. Not with half-assed agendas without watching and understand the game. Yes, Bhuvi's average isn't that great. But in the context of the high-scoring ODIs, he's doing a really important job quite well for the team. Compare his numbers to his peers in the same time-frame - the pace bowlers for the teams he played against. For the 2nd pacer role, Bhuvi is right up there in quality across the top ODI units. Stats be damned. You can keep regurgitating the same flawed numbers till the cows come home, doesn't make an iota of difference in what the facts are. Edited January 15, 2019 by sandeep Clarke and kruiser 1 1 Link to comment
zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 40 minutes ago, sandeep said: You clearly either didn't read what I wrote, or failed to understand. The stats that you post are average driven. Most ODI tracks are 330 par these days. You'd happily take a 10-1-53-1 from one of your bowlers that bowls Powerplay and death overs in that context. Or would you rather have 10-0-76-1 from a Siraj/Shardul/Umesh/Khaleel? Bhuvi provides the team with much-needed control in the powerplay overs. Consistently. Hardly ever gives freebie boundary balls. Bowling attacks hunt in packs, the control and discipline exerted by one bowler often results in wickets at the other end. For example Hardik Pandya - u know the 9th grade fail who you're besotted with? - his ODI bowling numbers benefit majorly from the presence of the likes of Bumrah, Bhuvi, KulCha around him. Because the opposition is forced to take extra risks against him. Just like how Moeen Ali's test numbers in England are really good - because the rest of the bowlers exert so much pressure and he is able to pick up wickets in bunches. Take away that consistent pressure from the rest of the England bowlers, in Indian conditions for eg, and what happens to Moeen? His stats take a nosedive into the underground sewer. A simpleton can draw foolish conclusions from Moeen's test stats at home though. That is why stats have to be understood with context. Not with half-assed agendas without watching and understand the game. Yes, Bhuvi's average isn't that great. But in the context of the high-scoring ODIs, he's doing a really important job quite well for the team. Compare his numbers to his peers in the same time-frame - the pace bowlers for the teams he played against. For the 2nd pacer role, Bhuvi is right up there in quality across the top ODI units. Stats be damned. You can keep regurgitating the same flawed numbers till the cows come home, doesn't make an iota of difference in what the facts are. .... the discussion is past the point of all that (the context or whatever bedtime stories you tell yourself have been considered) View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 2 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 2 2 18.0 0 103 3 3/48 34.33 5.72 36.0 0 0 Mohammed Shami 1 1 10.0 0 58 3 3/58 19.33 5.80 20.0 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 3 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 Mohammed Shami 2 2 20.0 0 104 3 3/58 34.66 5.20 40.0 0 0 KK Ahmed 5 5 40.0 1 210 9 3/13 23.33 5.25 26.6 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 For such comical support, I hope he does well in at least a few games here and there Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 At this point his death bowling is not consistent. Even Clarke has picked up on this. He is okay with new ball. Then when he comes back he is not the same. TO keep him he has to bowl more overs upfront and in the middle. 2 overs in the death. That too not 50th over. Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: At this point his death bowling is not consistent. Even Clarke has picked up on this. He is okay with new ball. Then when he comes back he is not the same. TO keep him he has to bowl more overs upfront and in the middle. 2 overs in the death. That too not 50th over. Please name bowlers who are "consistent" with death bowling. All bowlers can go for runs at the death. That's the nature of the game. Pound for pound, Bhuvi is the best bet from a probability perspective for India after Bumrah. Provided he's 100% fit and in rhythm. But you can say that for any bowler. Being more penetrative with the new ball, bowling tighter at the death are obviously things that Bhuvi can improve upon. But to zoom in on those areas of improvement, while ignoring the reliable control he provides the team, is missing the proverbial forest for the trees. Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, zen said: .... the discussion is past the point of all that (the context or whatever bedtime stories you tell yourself have been considered) View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 2 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 2 2 18.0 0 103 3 3/48 34.33 5.72 36.0 0 0 Mohammed Shami 1 1 10.0 0 58 3 3/58 19.33 5.80 20.0 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 3 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 Mohammed Shami 2 2 20.0 0 104 3 3/58 34.66 5.20 40.0 0 0 KK Ahmed 5 5 40.0 1 210 9 3/13 23.33 5.25 26.6 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 For such comical support, I hope he does well in at least a few games here and there Based on your silly stats, are you saying India would be better off selecting Khaleel ahead of Bhuvi? That's what your numbers point to right? Don't dodge the question now. Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 28 minutes ago, sandeep said: Please name bowlers who are "consistent" with death bowling. All bowlers can go for runs at the death. That's the nature of the game. Pound for pound, Bhuvi is the best bet from a probability perspective for India after Bumrah. Provided he's 100% fit and in rhythm. But you can say that for any bowler. Being more penetrative with the new ball, bowling tighter at the death are obviously things that Bhuvi can improve upon. But to zoom in on those areas of improvement, while ignoring the reliable control he provides the team, is missing the proverbial forest for the trees. We have few more matches to go. Let us see. He has regressed in the last one year. If he continues regressing Shami will take his spot once Pandya is back. Link to comment
zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 46 minutes ago, sandeep said: Based on your silly stats, are you saying India would be better off selecting Khaleel ahead of Bhuvi? That's what your numbers point to right? Don't dodge the question now. At this point, it does not matter esp if the new players have potential .... we have to develop good bowlers .... Bhuvi should not be an automatic choice. And he has been given a run for over 90+ games and has the worst numbers among those with 100 or more wkts, which is the key point Edited January 15, 2019 by zen Stan AF 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, zen said: At this point, it does not matter esp if the new players have potential .... we have to develop good bowlers .... Bhuvi should not be an automatic choice. And he has been given a run for over 90+ games and has the worst numbers among those with 100 or more wkts, which is the key point I see. You are one of those fans with Kuch Nayaa Lao syndrome. Fplks afflicted with that have a hard time seeing things objectively. No easy cure for that fallacy. I'm done wasting my time then, toodles. Edited January 15, 2019 by sandeep Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 35 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: We have few more matches to go. Let us see. He has regressed in the last one year. If he continues regressing Shami will take his spot once Pandya is back. Shami is a quality bowler, and bowls a lot of peaches. But he does tend to serve up boundary balls way too often to be your go-to bowler for powerplay and death. He'd be an excellent choice for 3rd pacer at the moment. But would be a double-edged sword for the team if you start counting on him to bowl regularly up front and at the death. But I have no qualms with benching Bhuvi if he doesn't consistently do his job. He's done his job here in these 2 games, would you agree? Link to comment
zen Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, sandeep said: I see. You are one of those fans with Kuch Nayaa Lao syndrome. Fplks afflicted with that have a hard time seeing things objectively. No easy cure for that fallacy. I'm done wasting my time then, toodles. whatever works in your bedtime stories to make you sleep well at night! .... Nero played fiddle when Rome was burning Link to comment
vvvslaxman Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 1 hour ago, sandeep said: Shami is a quality bowler, and bowls a lot of peaches. But he does tend to serve up boundary balls way too often to be your go-to bowler for powerplay and death. He'd be an excellent choice for 3rd pacer at the moment. But would be a double-edged sword for the team if you start counting on him to bowl regularly up front and at the death. But I have no qualms with benching Bhuvi if he doesn't consistently do his job. He's done his job here in these 2 games, would you agree? First game he conceded a lot at the death. He got it all wrong. Second game he has done well. beetle 1 Link to comment
sandeep Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: First game he conceded a lot at the death. He got it all wrong. Second game he has done well. If you go back to CT, even Bumrah had a bad tournament. One-off bad spell happens. And he hadn't played a lot of cricket recently. Won't be the case come WC. And if he's not in full rhythm, he doesn't make the XI. Simple as. But I expect him to stay fit and be a key contributing member during the WC. Even yesterday Lyon sat on the slower one and was able to connect one and take him deep. But overall, folks who understand the game and bowling, would have seen that overall he bowled with good control and the pace was back to where it needs to be. There should be no gimmes or freebies at this level, not for Dhoni, not for Bhuvi. But objective evaluation is required, not schoolboy stats-bashing. beetle 1 Link to comment
CSK Fan Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/15/2019 at 11:54 PM, zen said: .... the discussion is past the point of all that (the context or whatever bedtime stories you tell yourself have been considered) View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 2 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 KK Ahmed 2 2 18.0 0 103 3 3/48 34.33 5.72 36.0 0 0 Mohammed Shami 1 1 10.0 0 58 3 3/58 19.33 5.80 20.0 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2018 Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Involving the player B Kumar (INDIA) Bowling position between 1 and 3 Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3 Ordered by bowling average (reverse) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 4 of 4 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI Ave Econ SR 4 5 B Kumar 16 16 121.0 6 648 17 4/45 38.11 5.35 42.7 1 0 Mohammed Shami 2 2 20.0 0 104 3 3/58 34.66 5.20 40.0 0 0 KK Ahmed 5 5 40.0 1 210 9 3/13 23.33 5.25 26.6 0 0 JJ Bumrah 12 12 92.5 8 342 20 4/35 17.10 3.68 27.8 1 0 For such comical support, I hope he does well in at least a few games here and there I will accept this stat if you accept solely based on his test stats he is way better than Shami and ishant and a must in playing xi. No mental gymnastics and excuses there sandeep and The Dark Horse 2 Link to comment
The Dark Horse Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 6 hours ago, CSK Fan said: I will accept this stat if you accept solely based on his test stats he is way better than Shami and ishant and a must in playing xi. No mental gymnastics and excuses there Answer will be... we're talking about ODIs here... .... Random Cricinfo filters Link to comment
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