Asian bowlers outside Asia

[R!TTER]

Are people forgetting how DRS has had a massive impact on results & even batter techniques 

 

Let's be honest if the Windian quartet had DRS back then they'd probably average even lower, away from home! Conversely Kapil & other Asian pacers would also have lower avg in S.E.N.A.

 

As good as the current lot are, no one should seriously compare them with the past greats just on the back of stats, unless you wanna claim this side could handle the greatest test side ever & still come out trumps!

[mani sha]

Why compare ? The three indian spinners were very good and foreigners didn’t have much exposure to spin .

now they have bowling machines to replicate spin and they practise more . Ashwin is as good as any era spinner - technology is more batter friendly now 

[Moochad]

I think Spinners need a differnt metric by which to judge them overseas. The rule of thumb below 30 average is too harsh on them. They bowl on pitches which are completely unsuited to them yet we expect them to perform at the same level as fast bowlers

 

Here are all spinners, outside of Asia, min 100 wickets taken, in the last 70 years. Its rare to find a spinner with a below 30 average

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
JH Wardle (ENG)	1948-1957	28	52	6597	2080	102	7/36	12/89	20.39	1.89	64.6	5	1
JC Laker (ENG)	1948-1959	46	86	12027	4101	193	10/53	19/90	21.24	2.04	62.3	9	3
GAR Lock (ENG)	1952-1968	42	76	10312	3487	142	7/35	11/48	24.55	2.02	72.6	8	3
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	119	225	33699	14452	575	8/71	12/128	25.13	2.57	58.6	26	7
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1980	64	113	16100	5728	224	8/51	13/71	25.57	2.13	71.8	14	6
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1995-2008	29	47	9457	4188	162	9/65	16/220	25.85	2.65	58.3	14	5
HJ Tayfield (SA)	1949-1960	37	61	13568	4405	170	9/113	13/165	25.91	1.94	79.8	14	2
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	37	72	9594	5093	172	7/50	12/107	29.61	3.18	55.7	10	2
S Ramadhin (WI)	1950-1961	39	68	13247	4367	147	7/49	11/152	29.70	1.97	90.1	10	1
R Benaud (AUS)	1952-1964	51	93	14709	5332	177	6/70	9/144	30.12	2.17	83.1	10	0
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	65	120	22869	7687	255	8/38	11/157	30.14	2.01	89.6	15	2
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	27	48	7331	3230	107	7/98	10/185	30.18	2.64	68.5	5	1
AL Valentine (WI)	1950-1962	36	63	12953	4215	139	8/104	11/204	30.32	1.95	93.1	8	2
R Illingworth (ENG)	1958-1973	61	100	11934	3807	122	6/29	7/29	31.20	1.91	97.8	3	0
GP Swann (ENG)	2009-2013	47	85	11347	5746	182	6/65	10/132	31.57	3.03	62.3	12	1
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1967-1979	34	58	10145	3901	123	6/127	10/194	31.71	2.30	82.4	6	1
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	70	133	17195	8538	262	7/152	12/286	32.58	2.97	65.6	8	1
AA Mallett (AUS)	1968-1980	33	61	8198	3405	104	8/59	9/111	32.74	2.49	78.8	3	0
FJ Titmus (ENG)	1955-1975	48	80	12725	4184	126	7/79	7/79	33.20	1.97	100.9	5	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2013	36	60	8257	3918	115	6/37	10/187	34.06	2.84	71.8	8	1
PH Edmonds (ENG)	1975-1987	44	72	9675	3453	101	5/28	6/60	34.18	2.14	95.7	1	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	46	84	14215	6632	186	8/141	12/279	35.65	2.79	76.4	8	1
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2019	47	81	8006	4844	133	6/53	10/112	36.42	3.63	60.1	4	1
PCR Tufnell (ENG)	1990-2001	37	63	10064	3952	107	7/47	11/93	36.93	2.35	94.0	5	2
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2012	86	142	20326	8953	238	7/87	12/149	37.61	2.64	85.4	11	2
JE Emburey (ENG)	1978-1995	54	90	13147	4776	122	7/78	7/105	39.14	2.17	107.7	5	0

 

Same filters but with 50 wickets instead, we see Bhaji and Kumble

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
JH Wardle (ENG)	1948-1957	28	52	6597	2080	102	7/36	12/89	20.39	1.89	64.6	5	1
JC Laker (ENG)	1948-1959	46	86	12027	4101	193	10/53	19/90	21.24	2.04	62.3	9	3
GAR Lock (ENG)	1952-1968	42	76	10312	3487	142	7/35	11/48	24.55	2.02	72.6	8	3
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	119	225	33699	14452	575	8/71	12/128	25.13	2.57	58.6	26	7
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1980	64	113	16100	5728	224	8/51	13/71	25.57	2.13	71.8	14	6
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1995-2008	29	47	9457	4188	162	9/65	16/220	25.85	2.65	58.3	14	5
HJ Tayfield (SA)	1949-1960	37	61	13568	4405	170	9/113	13/165	25.91	1.94	79.8	14	2
Mushtaq Mohammad (PAK)	1962-1979	32	40	3029	1326	51	5/28	9/119	26.00	2.62	59.3	3	0
JD Higgs (AUS)	1978-1981	16	28	3387	1355	52	5/148	8/190	26.05	2.40	65.1	1	0
G Miller (ENG)	1976-1984	31	45	4573	1597	56	5/44	6/57	28.51	2.09	81.6	1	0
KA Maharaj (SA)	2016-2019	23	43	4319	2284	78	6/40	9/225	29.28	3.17	55.3	4	0
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	37	72	9594	5093	172	7/50	12/107	29.61	3.18	55.7	10	2
IWG Johnson (AUS)	1947-1956	37	62	7312	2732	92	7/44	8/86	29.69	2.24	79.4	2	0
S Ramadhin (WI)	1950-1961	39	68	13247	4367	147	7/49	11/152	29.70	1.97	90.1	10	1
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK)	1990-2001	23	38	5972	2776	93	7/56	10/171	29.84	2.78	64.2	6	1
R Benaud (AUS)	1952-1964	51	93	14709	5332	177	6/70	9/144	30.12	2.17	83.1	10	0
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	65	120	22869	7687	255	8/38	11/157	30.14	2.01	89.6	15	2
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	27	48	7331	3230	107	7/98	10/185	30.18	2.64	68.5	5	1
AL Valentine (WI)	1950-1962	36	63	12953	4215	139	8/104	11/204	30.32	1.95	93.1	8	2
R Illingworth (ENG)	1958-1973	61	100	11934	3807	122	6/29	7/29	31.20	1.91	97.8	3	0
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)	1967-1979	23	38	6202	2881	92	6/38	12/104	31.31	2.78	67.4	8	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2009-2013	47	85	11347	5746	182	6/65	10/132	31.57	3.03	62.3	12	1
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1967-1979	34	58	10145	3901	123	6/127	10/194	31.71	2.30	82.4	6	1
EAS Prasanna (INDIA)	1962-1978	25	42	7174	2931	92	8/76	11/140	31.85	2.45	77.9	5	1
DA Allen (ENG)	1960-1966	31	51	8402	2861	88	5/41	7/140	32.51	2.04	95.4	2	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	70	133	17195	8538	262	7/152	12/286	32.58	2.97	65.6	8	1
AA Mallett (AUS)	1968-1980	33	61	8198	3405	104	8/59	9/111	32.74	2.49	78.8	3	0
NM Hauritz (AUS)	2008-2010	14	27	3498	1711	52	5/53	6/126	32.90	2.93	67.2	2	0
FJ Titmus (ENG)	1955-1975	48	80	12725	4184	126	7/79	7/79	33.20	1.97	100.9	5	0
S Shillingford (WI)	2010-2014	12	22	3636	1798	54	6/49	10/93	33.29	2.96	67.3	4	2
JG Bracewell (NZ)	1980-1990	33	53	6838	2850	84	6/32	10/106	33.92	2.50	81.4	3	1
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2013	36	60	8257	3918	115	6/37	10/187	34.06	2.84	71.8	8	1
PH Edmonds (ENG)	1975-1987	44	72	9675	3453	101	5/28	6/60	34.18	2.14	95.7	1	0
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2011	27	50	6817	3407	98	7/120	8/180	34.76	2.99	69.5	6	0
PR Adams (SA)	1995-2004	32	55	6753	3155	89	4/31	6/206	35.44	2.80	75.8	0	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	46	84	14215	6632	186	8/141	12/279	35.65	2.79	76.4	8	1
TBA May (AUS)	1987-1995	19	36	5084	1962	55	5/9	7/50	35.67	2.31	92.4	3	0
JW Gleeson (AUS)	1967-1972	26	47	7791	3020	83	5/61	8/186	36.38	2.32	93.8	3	0
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2019	47	81	8006	4844	133	6/53	10/112	36.42	3.63	60.1	4	1
PCR Tufnell (ENG)	1990-2001	37	63	10064	3952	107	7/47	11/93	36.93	2.35	94.0	5	2
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2012	86	142	20326	8953	238	7/87	12/149	37.61	2.64	85.4	11	2
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2003-2010	21	41	6117	3257	86	7/168	8/204	37.87	3.19	71.1	5	0
KJ O'Keeffe (AUS)	1971-1977	24	40	5384	2018	53	5/101	6/106	38.07	2.24	101.5	1	0
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2018	20	34	5107	2476	65	7/83	7/121	38.09	2.90	78.5	2	0
RJ Shastri (INDIA)	1981-1992	30	48	6144	2439	64	5/125	8/179	38.10	2.38	96.0	1	0
PL Harris (SA)	2007-2011	28	48	5977	2718	71	6/127	9/161	38.28	2.72	84.1	2	0
SJ Benn (WI)	2008-2015	24	40	7195	3336	86	6/81	8/108	38.79	2.78	83.6	6	0
JE Emburey (ENG)	1978-1995	54	90	13147	4776	122	7/78	7/105	39.14	2.17	107.7	5	0
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2014	79	87	6079	2651	66	5/34	6/81	40.16	2.61	92.1	2	0
D Bishoo (WI)	2011-2018	20	32	4080	2124	52	6/80	7/140	40.84	3.12	78.4	1

 

Even players that grow up outside asia struggle to meet that standard.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, Moochad said:

I think Spinners need a differnt metric by which to judge them overseas. The rule of thumb below 30 average is too harsh on them. They bowl on pitches which are completely unsuited to them yet we expect them to perform at the same level as fast bowlers

 

Here are all spinners, outside of Asia, min 100 wickets taken, in the last 70 years. Its rare to find a spinner with a below 30 average

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
JH Wardle (ENG)	1948-1957	28	52	6597	2080	102	7/36	12/89	20.39	1.89	64.6	5	1
JC Laker (ENG)	1948-1959	46	86	12027	4101	193	10/53	19/90	21.24	2.04	62.3	9	3
GAR Lock (ENG)	1952-1968	42	76	10312	3487	142	7/35	11/48	24.55	2.02	72.6	8	3
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	119	225	33699	14452	575	8/71	12/128	25.13	2.57	58.6	26	7
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1980	64	113	16100	5728	224	8/51	13/71	25.57	2.13	71.8	14	6
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1995-2008	29	47	9457	4188	162	9/65	16/220	25.85	2.65	58.3	14	5
HJ Tayfield (SA)	1949-1960	37	61	13568	4405	170	9/113	13/165	25.91	1.94	79.8	14	2
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	37	72	9594	5093	172	7/50	12/107	29.61	3.18	55.7	10	2
S Ramadhin (WI)	1950-1961	39	68	13247	4367	147	7/49	11/152	29.70	1.97	90.1	10	1
R Benaud (AUS)	1952-1964	51	93	14709	5332	177	6/70	9/144	30.12	2.17	83.1	10	0
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	65	120	22869	7687	255	8/38	11/157	30.14	2.01	89.6	15	2
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	27	48	7331	3230	107	7/98	10/185	30.18	2.64	68.5	5	1
AL Valentine (WI)	1950-1962	36	63	12953	4215	139	8/104	11/204	30.32	1.95	93.1	8	2
R Illingworth (ENG)	1958-1973	61	100	11934	3807	122	6/29	7/29	31.20	1.91	97.8	3	0
GP Swann (ENG)	2009-2013	47	85	11347	5746	182	6/65	10/132	31.57	3.03	62.3	12	1
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1967-1979	34	58	10145	3901	123	6/127	10/194	31.71	2.30	82.4	6	1
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	70	133	17195	8538	262	7/152	12/286	32.58	2.97	65.6	8	1
AA Mallett (AUS)	1968-1980	33	61	8198	3405	104	8/59	9/111	32.74	2.49	78.8	3	0
FJ Titmus (ENG)	1955-1975	48	80	12725	4184	126	7/79	7/79	33.20	1.97	100.9	5	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2013	36	60	8257	3918	115	6/37	10/187	34.06	2.84	71.8	8	1
PH Edmonds (ENG)	1975-1987	44	72	9675	3453	101	5/28	6/60	34.18	2.14	95.7	1	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	46	84	14215	6632	186	8/141	12/279	35.65	2.79	76.4	8	1
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2019	47	81	8006	4844	133	6/53	10/112	36.42	3.63	60.1	4	1
PCR Tufnell (ENG)	1990-2001	37	63	10064	3952	107	7/47	11/93	36.93	2.35	94.0	5	2
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2012	86	142	20326	8953	238	7/87	12/149	37.61	2.64	85.4	11	2
JE Emburey (ENG)	1978-1995	54	90	13147	4776	122	7/78	7/105	39.14	2.17	107.7	5	0

 

Same filters but with 50 wickets instead, we see Bhaji and Kumble

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
JH Wardle (ENG)	1948-1957	28	52	6597	2080	102	7/36	12/89	20.39	1.89	64.6	5	1
JC Laker (ENG)	1948-1959	46	86	12027	4101	193	10/53	19/90	21.24	2.04	62.3	9	3
GAR Lock (ENG)	1952-1968	42	76	10312	3487	142	7/35	11/48	24.55	2.02	72.6	8	3
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	119	225	33699	14452	575	8/71	12/128	25.13	2.57	58.6	26	7
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1980	64	113	16100	5728	224	8/51	13/71	25.57	2.13	71.8	14	6
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1995-2008	29	47	9457	4188	162	9/65	16/220	25.85	2.65	58.3	14	5
HJ Tayfield (SA)	1949-1960	37	61	13568	4405	170	9/113	13/165	25.91	1.94	79.8	14	2
Mushtaq Mohammad (PAK)	1962-1979	32	40	3029	1326	51	5/28	9/119	26.00	2.62	59.3	3	0
JD Higgs (AUS)	1978-1981	16	28	3387	1355	52	5/148	8/190	26.05	2.40	65.1	1	0
G Miller (ENG)	1976-1984	31	45	4573	1597	56	5/44	6/57	28.51	2.09	81.6	1	0
KA Maharaj (SA)	2016-2019	23	43	4319	2284	78	6/40	9/225	29.28	3.17	55.3	4	0
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	37	72	9594	5093	172	7/50	12/107	29.61	3.18	55.7	10	2
IWG Johnson (AUS)	1947-1956	37	62	7312	2732	92	7/44	8/86	29.69	2.24	79.4	2	0
S Ramadhin (WI)	1950-1961	39	68	13247	4367	147	7/49	11/152	29.70	1.97	90.1	10	1
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK)	1990-2001	23	38	5972	2776	93	7/56	10/171	29.84	2.78	64.2	6	1
R Benaud (AUS)	1952-1964	51	93	14709	5332	177	6/70	9/144	30.12	2.17	83.1	10	0
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	65	120	22869	7687	255	8/38	11/157	30.14	2.01	89.6	15	2
B Yardley (AUS)	1978-1983	27	48	7331	3230	107	7/98	10/185	30.18	2.64	68.5	5	1
AL Valentine (WI)	1950-1962	36	63	12953	4215	139	8/104	11/204	30.32	1.95	93.1	8	2
R Illingworth (ENG)	1958-1973	61	100	11934	3807	122	6/29	7/29	31.20	1.91	97.8	3	0
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)	1967-1979	23	38	6202	2881	92	6/38	12/104	31.31	2.78	67.4	8	1
GP Swann (ENG)	2009-2013	47	85	11347	5746	182	6/65	10/132	31.57	3.03	62.3	12	1
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1967-1979	34	58	10145	3901	123	6/127	10/194	31.71	2.30	82.4	6	1
EAS Prasanna (INDIA)	1962-1978	25	42	7174	2931	92	8/76	11/140	31.85	2.45	77.9	5	1
DA Allen (ENG)	1960-1966	31	51	8402	2861	88	5/41	7/140	32.51	2.04	95.4	2	0
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	70	133	17195	8538	262	7/152	12/286	32.58	2.97	65.6	8	1
AA Mallett (AUS)	1968-1980	33	61	8198	3405	104	8/59	9/111	32.74	2.49	78.8	3	0
NM Hauritz (AUS)	2008-2010	14	27	3498	1711	52	5/53	6/126	32.90	2.93	67.2	2	0
FJ Titmus (ENG)	1955-1975	48	80	12725	4184	126	7/79	7/79	33.20	1.97	100.9	5	0
S Shillingford (WI)	2010-2014	12	22	3636	1798	54	6/49	10/93	33.29	2.96	67.3	4	2
JG Bracewell (NZ)	1980-1990	33	53	6838	2850	84	6/32	10/106	33.92	2.50	81.4	3	1
MS Panesar (ENG)	2006-2013	36	60	8257	3918	115	6/37	10/187	34.06	2.84	71.8	8	1
PH Edmonds (ENG)	1975-1987	44	72	9675	3453	101	5/28	6/60	34.18	2.14	95.7	1	0
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2011	27	50	6817	3407	98	7/120	8/180	34.76	2.99	69.5	6	0
PR Adams (SA)	1995-2004	32	55	6753	3155	89	4/31	6/206	35.44	2.80	75.8	0	0
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	46	84	14215	6632	186	8/141	12/279	35.65	2.79	76.4	8	1
TBA May (AUS)	1987-1995	19	36	5084	1962	55	5/9	7/50	35.67	2.31	92.4	3	0
JW Gleeson (AUS)	1967-1972	26	47	7791	3020	83	5/61	8/186	36.38	2.32	93.8	3	0
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2019	47	81	8006	4844	133	6/53	10/112	36.42	3.63	60.1	4	1
PCR Tufnell (ENG)	1990-2001	37	63	10064	3952	107	7/47	11/93	36.93	2.35	94.0	5	2
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2012	86	142	20326	8953	238	7/87	12/149	37.61	2.64	85.4	11	2
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2003-2010	21	41	6117	3257	86	7/168	8/204	37.87	3.19	71.1	5	0
KJ O'Keeffe (AUS)	1971-1977	24	40	5384	2018	53	5/101	6/106	38.07	2.24	101.5	1	0
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2018	20	34	5107	2476	65	7/83	7/121	38.09	2.90	78.5	2	0
RJ Shastri (INDIA)	1981-1992	30	48	6144	2439	64	5/125	8/179	38.10	2.38	96.0	1	0
PL Harris (SA)	2007-2011	28	48	5977	2718	71	6/127	9/161	38.28	2.72	84.1	2	0
SJ Benn (WI)	2008-2015	24	40	7195	3336	86	6/81	8/108	38.79	2.78	83.6	6	0
JE Emburey (ENG)	1978-1995	54	90	13147	4776	122	7/78	7/105	39.14	2.17	107.7	5	0
CH Gayle (WI)	2000-2014	79	87	6079	2651	66	5/34	6/81	40.16	2.61	92.1	2	0
D Bishoo (WI)	2011-2018	20	32	4080	2124	52	6/80	7/140	40.84	3.12	78.4	1

 

Even players that grow up outside asia struggle to meet that standard.

 

 

 

We can always compare spinners with spinners.

 

India, a country which prides itself on producing quality spinners, does not have a single spinner in the top 20. And no current spinner in the top 40.  Very sad !!

[putrevus]

On 9/2/2019 at 1:39 AM, Rightarmfast said:

14 Indian bowlers in that list, and only 9 Pakistani bowlers. And the world says Pakistan has been a better bowling factory?

Who has better avgs

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

We can always compare spinners with spinners.

 

India, a country which prides itself on producing quality spinners, does not have a single spinner in the top 20. And no current spinner in the top 40.  Very sad !!

and it shows how good some eng spinners were in the days of long long ago. not just laker, but also the highly versatile wardle.

[Tibarn]

8 hours ago, Moochad said:

I think Spinners need a differnt metric by which to judge them overseas.

Interesting idea, so I took a look : one need only look at the leading wicket takers as spinners to see this is the case. That's not even mentioning that below 30 avg is completely arbitrary, like an Avg of 29.99 is qualitatively better than 30.01

 

A list of the highest wicket-takers as spinners, top 26, with a minimum of 180 wickets taken: it is not uncommon to see above 30 averages[only 17 out of 26 are below 30] or if we say 29 is similar to 30 [only 11 out of 26 are below 29], and then 28 [only 8 out of 26 are below 28] 

 

Of the 8, 3: Benaud, Grimmett, Laker are from an era where there were hardly any professional level cricket teams. 

 

Use the rule-of-thumb below 60 SR, and it is even bigger question mark on how one measures spinners: only 6 of the 26 meet this mark. 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	Balls	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)	1992-2010	133	230	44039	18180	800	9/51	16/220	22.72	2.47	55.0	67	22
SK Warne (AUS)	1992-2007	145	273	40705	17995	708	8/71	12/128	25.41	2.65	57.4	37	10
A Kumble (INDIA)	1990-2008	132	236	40850	18355	619	10/74	14/149	29.65	2.69	65.9	35	8
HMRKB Herath (SL)	1999-2018	93	170	25993	12157	433	9/127	14/184	28.07	2.80	60.0	34	9
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)	1998-2015	103	190	28580	13537	417	8/84	15/217	32.46	2.84	68.5	25	5
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)	1997-2014	113	187	28814	12441	362	7/87	12/149	34.36	2.59	79.5	20	3
NM Lyon (AUS)	2011-2019	89	170	22799	11506	357	8/50	13/154	32.22	3.02	63.8	15	2
R Ashwin (INDIA)	2011-2018	65	122	18372	8700	342	7/59	13/140	25.43	2.84	53.7	26	7
LR Gibbs (WI)	1958-1976	79	148	27115	8989	309	8/38	11/157	29.09	1.98	87.7	18	2
DL Underwood (ENG)	1966-1982	86	151	21862	7674	297	8/51	13/71	25.83	2.10	73.6	17	6
BS Bedi (INDIA)	1966-1979	67	118	21364	7637	266	7/98	10/194	28.71	2.14	80.3	14	1
Danish Kaneria (PAK)	2000-2010	61	112	17697	9082	261	7/77	12/94	34.79	3.07	67.8	15	2
GP Swann (ENG)	2008-2013	60	109	15349	7642	255	6/65	10/132	29.96	2.98	60.1	17	3
R Benaud (AUS)	1952-1964	63	116	19108	6704	248	7/72	11/105	27.03	2.10	77.0	16	1
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)	1964-1979	58	97	15963	7199	242	8/79	12/104	29.74	2.70	65.9	16	2
Abdul Qadir (PAK)	1977-1990	67	111	17126	7742	236	9/56	13/101	32.80	2.71	72.5	15	5
CV Grimmett (AUS)	1925-1936	37	67	14513	5231	216	7/40	14/199	24.21	2.16	67.1	21	7
SCG MacGill (AUS)	1998-2008	44	85	11237	6038	208	8/108	12/107	29.02	3.22	54.0	12	2
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)	1995-2004	49	86	14070	6206	208	8/164	10/155	29.83	2.64	67.6	13	3
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)	2007-2018	55	93	12774	6415	205	7/36	10/124	31.29	3.01	62.3	18	2
Yasir Shah (PAK)	2014-2019	35	67	11293	5832	203	8/41	14/184	28.72	3.09	55.6	16	3
RA Jadeja (INDIA)	2012-2019	43	82	11812	4731	198	7/48	10/154	23.89	2.40	59.6	9	1
JC Laker (ENG)	1948-1959	46	86	12027	4101	193	10/53	19/90	21.24	2.04	62.3	9	3
EAS Prasanna (INDIA)	1962-1978	49	86	14353	5742	189	8/76	11/140	30.38	2.40	75.9	10	2
Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK)	1990-2003	52	89	12532	6100	185	7/56	10/106	32.97	2.92	67.7	10	3
MM Ali (ENG)	2014-2019	60	105	10972	6624	181	6/53	10/112	36.59	3.62	60.6	5	1

 

 

The whole outside of Asia metric is also arbitrary, IMO. Playing and bowling in England vs in Australia is completely different. Add in the other overseas countries and this statement is strengthened. West Indies has been a spin friendly place until the last few years. It was not uncommon for them to play multiple spinners there. 

Quote

Even players that grow up outside asia struggle to meet that standard.

 

Ideally, spinners would be judged based on records in each individual location( with the same being true for batsmen and pacers as well). A non-Asian player can look better or worse in these stereotypically spin-unfriendly locations if one compares their averages with and without their home

This is illustrated by Swanny, maybe my favorite English cricketer, an absolute quality off-spinner. 

in Australia	2010-2013	8	16	361.1	64	1157	22	5/91	7/161	52.59	3.2	98.5	1	0
in Bangladesh	2010-2010	2	4	144.4	31	404	16	5/90	10/217	25.25	2.79	54.2	2	1
in England	2009-2013	32	57	1139.2	231	3473	120	6/65	10/132	28.94	3.04	56.9	7	1
in India	2008-2012	6	11	286.2	60	811	28	5/144	8/113	28.96	2.83	61.3	1	0
in South Africa	2009-2010	4	7	210.2	25	659	21	5/54	9/164	31.38	3.13	60	2	0
in Sri Lanka	2012-2012	2	4	121.1	13	355	16	6/82	10/181	22.18	2.92	45.4	2	1
in U.A.E.	2012-2012	3	5	114.5	17	326	13	4/107	5/118	25.07	2.83	53	0	0
in West Indies	2009-2009	3	5	180.2	52	457	19	5/57	8/149	24.05	2.53	56.9	2	0

Swann's stats from the table you posted was 31.51 avg @ 62.3 SR, however, look at his breakdown and it looks very different. It's basically Australia, which makes his average outside asia look much worse than his actual performance.

 

In comparison look at Lyon, born and bred on Aussie pitches:

in Australia	2011-2019	43	82	1846.1	353	5506	164	7/152	12/286	33.57	2.98	67.5	5	1
in Bangladesh	2017-2017	2	4	133.5	34	315	22	7/94	13/154	14.31	2.35	36.5	3	1
in England	2013-2019	11	21	404.2	78	1202	39	6/49	9/161	30.82	2.97	62.2	1	0
in India	2013-2017	7	13	293.3	28	1040	34	8/50	9/165	30.58	3.54	51.7	3	0
in New Zealand	2016-2016	2	4	64.0	13	226	10	4/91	7/123	22.60	3.53	38.4	0	0
in South Africa	2011-2018	9	17	366.5	74	1113	28	5/130	6/178	39.75	3.03	78.6	1	0
in Sri Lanka	2011-2016	6	12	248.5	36	806	24	5/34	7/233	33.58	3.23	62.2	1	0
in U.A.E.	2014-2018	4	8	257.5	39	807	15	4/78	8/213	53.80	3.12	103.1	0	0
in West Indies	2012-2015	5	9	184.3	52	491	21	5/68	7/156	23.38	2.66	52.7	1	0

Even a player who is brought up on their pitches can't perform well there. 

 

 

Some of the stats of the modern era suggest Australia is a graveyard for spinners:

Ashwin:

in Australia	2011-2018	7	12	426.3	69	1298	27	4/105	6/149	48.07	3.04	94.7	0	0
in Bangladesh	2015-2015	1	2	31.0	8	95	5	5/87	5/95	19.00	3.06	37.2	1	0
in England	2014-2018	6	9	175.1	33	461	14	4/62	7/121	32.92	2.63	75.0	0	0
in India	2011-2018	38	74	1919.1	421	5309	234	7/59	13/140	22.68	2.76	49.2	20	6
in South Africa	2013-2018	3	6	118.3	22	323	7	4/113	5/191	46.14	2.72	101.5	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2015-2017	6	12	260.4	47	820	38	6/46	10/160	21.57	3.14	41.1	3	1
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	131.0	29	394	17	7/83	7/126	23.17	3.00	46.2	2	0

 

Herath:

in Australia	2012-2013	3	5	134.4	16	407	12	5/95	7/142	33.91	3.02	67.3	1	0
in Bangladesh	2008-2018	4	8	146.3	19	522	13	4/49	5/230	40.15	3.56	67.6	0	0
in England	2011-2016	8	13	329.5	48	953	21	4/81	5/151	45.38	2.88	94.2	0	0
in India	2009-2017	5	7	195.3	24	652	12	5/121	5/121	54.33	3.33	97.7	1	0
in New Zealand	2005-2015	4	8	162.5	20	512	8	2/62	3/120	64.00	3.14	122.1	0	0
in Pakistan	2004-2004	2	4	107.3	21	320	11	4/64	7/132	29.09	2.97	58.6	0	0
in South Africa	2011-2017	6	9	203.4	31	565	16	5/79	9/128	35.31	2.77	76.3	1	0
in Sri Lanka	1999-2018	49	92	2378.4	469	6575	278	9/127	14/184	23.65	2.76	51.3	26	7
in U.A.E.	2011-2017	8	16	454.0	111	1146	40	6/43	11/136	28.65	2.52	68.1	3	1
in West Indies	2008-2018	2	4	103.0	27	218	3	2/52	3/119	72.66	2.11	206.0	0	0
in Zimbabwe	2016-2016	2	4	116.0	28	287	19	8/63	13/152	15.10	2.47	36.6	2	1

 

 

Jadeja: 

in Australia	2018-2019	2	3	89.0	25	200	7	3/82	5/127	28.57	2.24	76.2	0	0
in England	2014-2018	5	8	233.0	28	678	16	4/79	7/258	42.37	2.90	87.3	0	0
in India	2012-2018	28	55	1302.1	374	2838	144	7/48	10/154	19.70	2.17	54.2	7	1
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	89.0	17	257	3	1/10	2/130	85.66	2.88	178.0	0	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	1	2	62.2	15	154	6	6/138	6/154	25.66	2.47	62.3	1	0
in Sri Lanka	2017-2017	2	4	108.2	18	374	13	5/152	7/236	28.76	3.45	50.0	1	0
in West Indies	2016-2019	3	6	84.5	25	230	9	3/58	4/77	25.55	2.71	56.5	0	0

 

None of Ashwin, Jadeja, Swann, Lyon, Herath have been able to have respectable stats there. Jadeja is the closest, but his SR shows it takes 76.2 balls to take a single wicket there for him, so he is at best debatable. 

 

Maybe spinners struggle on these drop-in more than the pacers. Pacers, by virtue of pace, are always in the game. Maybe drop-in pitches fail to crack-up like normal pitches, or maybe there is another reason. 

 

It generally looks like any of those countries, except Windies, are hard for any of the top modern spinners to bowl, unless like Swann, one grew up on those pitches. 

Shakib:

in Bangladesh	2007-2018	36	61	1416.4	274	4292	137	7/36	10/124	31.32	3.02	62.0	13	2
in England	2010-2010	2	3	80.3	8	278	8	5/121	5/121	34.75	3.45	60.3	1	0
in India	2017-2017	1	2	33.0	4	154	2	2/50	2/154	77.00	4.66	99.0	0	0
in New Zealand	2008-2017	4	7	124.4	17	363	9	4/50	4/78	40.33	2.91	83.1	0	0
in South Africa	2008-2008	2	2	66.0	7	229	11	6/99	6/99	20.81	3.46	36.0	2	0
in Sri Lanka	2007-2017	3	5	142.3	20	415	9	4/74	6/154	46.11	2.91	95.0	0	0
in West Indies	2009-2018	4	7	175.1	41	408	21	6/33	8/129	19.42	2.32	50.0	2	0
in Zimbabwe	2011-2013	3	6	90.3	18	276	8	3/52	4/118	34.50	3.04	67.8	0	0

 

Shah:

in Australia	2016-2017	3	5	148.1	11	672	8	3/207	3/174	84.00	4.53	111.1	0	0
in Bangladesh	2015-2015	2	4	94.3	13	340	10	4/73	7/131	34.00	3.59	56.7	0	0
in England	2016-2016	4	8	238.0	34	774	19	6/72	10/141	40.73	3.25	75.1	2	1
in New Zealand	2016-2016	1	2	13.3	1	61	0	-	-	-	4.51	-	0	0
in South Africa	2018-2019	2	3	32.4	2	123	1	1/20	1/44	123.00	3.76	196.0	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2015-2015	3	6	176.3	28	464	24	7/76	9/155	19.33	2.62	44.1	3	0
in U.A.E.	2014-2018	17	33	990.3	176	2849	116	8/41	14/184	24.56	2.87	51.2	8	2
in West Indies	2017-2017	3	6	188.2	40	549	25	7/94	9/177	21.96	2.91	45.2	3	0

 

Ali:

in Australia	2017-2018	5	8	169.2	27	575	5	2/74	2/97	115.00	3.39	203.2	0	0
in Bangladesh	2016-2016	2	4	74.5	13	252	11	5/57	6/117	22.90	3.36	40.8	1	0
in England	2014-2019	32	57	833.4	116	3183	98	6/53	10/112	32.47	3.81	51.0	4	1
in India	2016-2016	5	8	188.1	21	649	10	3/98	4/107	64.90	3.44	112.9	0	0
in New Zealand	2018-2018	1	1	17.0	1	59	0	-	-	-	3.47	-	0	0
in South Africa	2015-2016	4	6	161.0	38	485	10	4/69	7/116	48.50	3.01	96.6	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2018-2018	3	6	124.0	14	441	18	4/66	8/137	24.50	3.55	41.3	0	0
in U.A.E.	2015-2015	3	6	107.2	9	438	9	3/108	4/168	48.66	4.08	71.5	0	0
in West Indies	2015-2019	5	9	153.2	26	542	20	4/36	7/135	27.10	3.53	46.0	0	0

 

 

Chuckmal: 

in Australia	2009-2009	1	2	69.1	4	223	2	1/73	2/223	111.50	3.22	207.5	0	0
in Bangladesh	2011-2011	2	4	90.3	21	233	9	3/40	5/114	25.88	2.57	60.3	0	0
in England	2010-2010	3	5	125.1	19	353	12	5/82	5/103	29.41	2.82	62.5	1	0
in New Zealand	2009-2009	1	2	54.5	15	117	2	2/91	2/117	58.50	2.13	164.5	0	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	3	5	130.1	22	365	11	6/96	10/147	33.18	2.80	71.0	1	1
in Sri Lanka	2009-2014	8	16	445.5	72	1231	38	5/146	7/193	32.39	2.76	70.3	2	0
in U.A.E.	2010-2014	12	23	725.3	157	1773	67	7/55	10/97	26.46	2.44	64.9	3	1
in West Indies	2011-2011	2	4	116.4	37	246	17	6/42	11/111	14.47	2.10	41.1	2	1
in Zimbabwe	2011-2013	3	6	174.1	39	462	20	7/95	11/118	23.10	2.65	52.2	1	1

 

Bhaji

in Australia	2003-2008	4	7	189.0	19	659	9	3/101	4/200	73.22	3.48	126.0	0	0
in Bangladesh	2004-2015	4	8	115.2	23	363	9	3/64	3/75	40.33	3.14	76.8	0	0
in England	2002-2011	5	9	205.2	28	697	14	5/115	5/139	49.78	3.39	88.0	1	0
in India	1998-2013	55	103	2831.3	565	7624	265	8/84	15/217	28.76	2.69	64.1	18	4
in New Zealand	1998-2009	6	11	213.4	40	508	21	6/63	7/102	24.19	2.37	61.0	1	0
in Pakistan	2006-2006	2	3	81.0	8	355	0	-	-	-	4.38	-	0	0
in South Africa	2001-2011	4	7	191.2	21	612	18	7/120	7/195	34.00	3.19	63.7	1	0
in Sri Lanka	1999-2015	10	16	402.5	60	1263	26	6/102	10/153	48.57	3.13	92.9	1	1
in West Indies	2002-2011	8	16	336.5	66	931	36	5/13	8/180	25.86	2.76	56.1	3	0
in Zimbabwe	1998-2005	5	10	196.3	41	525	19	4/59	5/96	27.63	2.67	62.0	0	0

 

Vettori 

in Australia	1997-2011	12	19	517.2	111	1487	37	6/87	8/229	40.18	2.87	83.8	3	0
in Bangladesh	2004-2008	4	7	208.4	83	423	34	6/28	12/170	12.44	2.02	36.8	5	1
in England	1999-2008	9	13	323.2	78	777	26	5/66	6/177	29.88	2.40	74.6	2	0
in India	1999-2010	8	13	531.0	117	1388	31	6/127	6/149	44.77	2.61	102.7	2	0
in New Zealand	1997-2012	57	98	2250.1	568	5901	159	7/87	12/149	37.11	2.62	84.9	6	2
in Pakistan	2002-2002	1	1	40.0	4	178	1	1/178	1/178	178.00	4.45	240.0	0	0
in South Africa	2006-2007	5	7	172.1	23	447	7	2/26	2/86	63.85	2.59	147.5	0	0
in Sri Lanka	1998-2009	7	11	319.1	89	791	30	6/64	7/116	26.36	2.47	63.8	1	0
in U.A.E.	2014-2014	1	2	24.0	7	49	2	1/8	2/49	24.50	2.04	72.0	0	0
in West Indies	2002-2012	3	5	124.4	28	341	9	4/27	7/80	37.88	2.73	83.1	0	0
in Zimbabwe	1997-2011	6	11	291.5	89	659	26	5/70	8/141	25.34	2.25	67.3	1	0

 

Reviewing the stats I posted from the beginning of this post, these are basically all the top wicket-takers who are classified as spinners in the modern era. Not a single spinner in the modern era consistently meets this arbitrary standard, and not a single spinner does it across all the overseas countries. Only Windies seems to be a place where spinners consistently bowl up to those standards. 

 

Remove Windies from the stats and no modern spinner is below a 30 average in more than 1 of the ANES countries except Jadeja, who arguably spins the ball the least of any of them. 

 

I'm not sure what to make of it, but maybe the nature of pitches have changed dramatically over the last decade. After-all, not a single of the top wicket-taking spinners seems to be able to meet the, as you rightly implied, arbitrary metric of 30 average. This gets even worse if one includes the 60 SR benchmark, which then, for example, eliminates both Australia and SA for Jadeja. 

 

The ideal next step would be to average the averages and strike rates of each of these top spinners in the ANES countries to see what would a fair measure be in the modern era, for each individual location. 

 

I will maybe do that later, or maybe I won't. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by Tibarn

[Moochad]

12 hours ago, Tibarn said:

The ideal next step would be to average the averages and strike rates of each of these top spinners in the ANES countries to see what would a fair measure be in the modern era, for each individual location. 

 

Thanks for the research. I will calc the averages  

 

Average for the 11 most prolific Spinners of the last decade

 

Australia: 12,184 runs 293 wickets 41.58 avg

 

England: 12,829 runs 387 wickets 33.15 avg

 

New Zealand: 8,004 runs 212 wickets 37.75 avg

 

SA:  5,075 runs 136 wickets 37.32 avg

 

WI: 4,879 runs  197 wickets 24.77 avg

 

Australia is a graveyard for spinners. SA and New zealand are also very unfavorable. 

[putrevus]

It is not averages which we should be looking, we should be looking for 5fers .Ashwin has flopped big time in all the SENA countries.He had so many chances but he never could capitalize.Ashwin for most part had decent Seam bowlers to back him up.

[Vk1]

Always feel bad for Kumble for his overseas record. Was it because his role was to primarily dry up the run scoring? 

[putrevus]

Kumble like Ashwin was not a big threat  in SENA countries,he is greatest matchwinner for India.His downfall also was his inability to turn the ball.Ashwin instead of trying to get better with his stock delivery tries too many things.

 

Indian spinners need to stop depending on pitches doing the job for them.

[Tibarn]

On 9/4/2019 at 8:01 AM, Moochad said:

Thanks for the research. I will calc the averages  

 

Average for the 11 most prolific Spinners of the last decade

 

Australia: 12,184 runs 293 wickets 41.58 avg

 

England: 12,829 runs 387 wickets 33.15 avg

 

New Zealand: 8,004 runs 212 wickets 37.75 avg

 

SA:  5,075 runs 136 wickets 37.32 avg

 

WI: 4,879 runs  197 wickets 24.77 avg

Thanks, 

So now let's look at Jaddu and Ash in comparison to the average performance of the top 11 wicket-taking spinners of roughly the last decade

On 9/3/2019 at 6:37 PM, Tibarn said:

Some of the stats of the modern era suggest Australia is a graveyard for spinners:

Ashwin:

in Australia	2011-2018	7	12	426.3	69	1298	27	4/105	6/149	48.07	3.04	94.7	0	0
in Bangladesh	2015-2015	1	2	31.0	8	95	5	5/87	5/95	19.00	3.06	37.2	1	0
in England	2014-2018	6	9	175.1	33	461	14	4/62	7/121	32.92	2.63	75.0	0	0
in India	2011-2018	38	74	1919.1	421	5309	234	7/59	13/140	22.68	2.76	49.2	20	6
in South Africa	2013-2018	3	6	118.3	22	323	7	4/113	5/191	46.14	2.72	101.5	0	0
in Sri Lanka	2015-2017	6	12	260.4	47	820	38	6/46	10/160	21.57	3.14	41.1	3	1
in West Indies	2016-2016	4	7	131.0	29	394	17	7/83	7/126	23.17	3.00	46.2	2	0

 

Ashwin performs slightly better than average in Windies

Ashwin performs roughly equal to the average in England

Ashwin performs significantly worse than average in Australia and in South Africa.

 

On 9/3/2019 at 6:37 PM, Tibarn said:

Jadeja: 

in Australia	2018-2019	2	3	89.0	25	200	7	3/82	5/127	28.57	2.24	76.2	0	0
in England	2014-2018	5	8	233.0	28	678	16	4/79	7/258	42.37	2.90	87.3	0	0
in India	2012-2018	28	55	1302.1	374	2838	144	7/48	10/154	19.70	2.17	54.2	7	1
in New Zealand	2014-2014	2	4	89.0	17	257	3	1/10	2/130	85.66	2.88	178.0	0	0
in South Africa	2013-2013	1	2	62.2	15	154	6	6/138	6/154	25.66	2.47	62.3	1	0
in Sri Lanka	2017-2017	2	4	108.2	18	374	13	5/152	7/236	28.76	3.45	50.0	1	0
in West Indies	2016-2019	3	6	84.5	25	230	9	3/58	4/77	25.55	2.71	56.5	0	0

 

Jaddu performs significantly better in both Australia and SA than average. 

Jaddu performs significantly worse in NZ and England than average

Jaddu performs slightly worse in the Windies than average

 

 

 

This suggests we should platoon the spinners, Jaddu in Aus/SA and Ashwin in England would be a good option based on their past performances. In NZ, since Ash hasn't played there and Jaddu hasn't performed,  we need to either trust Ashwin or try someone else, likely Kuldeep.

 

 

 

 

 

[R!TTER]

Looks like Jad performs better in places where there's more pace & bounce in the pitch, whereas ethical mind is slightly better when there's more turn on offer & pitches are slower.

[Real McCoy]

On 9/4/2019 at 7:04 PM, Vk1 said:

Always feel bad for Kumble for his overseas record. Was it because his role was to primarily dry up the run scoring? 

The bite of the track was not there in overseas conditions. He was more like a medium pacer. Later on his career, he learnt to flight the ball more in away conditions and it paid rich dividends at Sydney in 2004.

[Real McCoy]

On 9/4/2019 at 7:56 PM, putrevus said:

Kumble like Ashwin was not a big threat  in SENA countries,he is greatest matchwinner for India.His downfall also was his inability to turn the ball.Ashwin instead of trying to get better with his stock delivery tries too many things.

 

Indian spinners need to stop depending on pitches doing the job for them.

Ashwin tries too many things and is less patient when things don't work out. Also most spinners from sena bowl way outside the off stump to tempt batters to go for the coverdrive and get bowled through the gate. I believe if you ask Prasanna or Bedi, they will tell you the same thing. This is why Lyon and Swann do well outside asia. Doesn't matter if you are a fast bowler or spinner you have to bowl to hit the top of off stump with your stock delivery. Also you have to bowl stock deliveries more often. That's why its called stock delivery Ashwin doesn't understand this simple fact and overcomplicates things. Hence the carrom ball and leg spinner to right handers. It may hit off stump but batsmen catch on to what he is doing and that makes him ineffective. He needs to speak to either Bedi or Prasanna or even Venkat to get this issue sorted out.

 

Also the field placement to the stock ball must be right. First slip is a must if the ball doesn't spin from outside the offstump and must be fine since the edges from off spinners travel fine and fast. Short leg can be placed for the ball that spins more in the second innings and for the bat pad opportunities. Sometimes if the player and the captain is aggressive, they can even place a silly point so that the batsmen knows he can't just step down the wicket and pad it away like Pujara did in the Aus series. I think he got out once while he was doing that IIRC. Asian teams attack differently by placing a legslip for the right hander. This is a waste when there is no spin and bite off the track. It also makes the off spinner bowl straighter which is not a good method in sena.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Real McCoy said:

Ashwin tries too many things and is less patient when things don't work out. Also most spinners from sena bowl way outside the off stump to tempt batters to go for the coverdrive and get bowled through the gate. I believe if you ask Prasanna or Bedi, they will tell you the same thing. This is why Lyon and Swann do well outside asia. Doesn't matter if you are a fast bowler or spinner you have to bowl to hit the top of off stump with your stock delivery. Also you have to bowl stock deliveries more often. That's why its called stock delivery Ashwin doesn't understand this simple fact and overcomplicates things. Hence the carrom ball and leg spinner to right handers. It may hit off stump but batsmen catch on to what he is doing and that makes him ineffective. He needs to speak to either Bedi or Prasanna or even Venkat to get this issue sorted out.

 

Also the field placement to the stock ball must be right. First slip is a must if the ball doesn't spin from outside the offstump and must be fine since the edges from off spinners travel fine and fast. Short leg can be placed for the ball that spins more in the second innings and for the bat pad opportunities. Sometimes if the player and the captain is aggressive, they can even place a silly point so that the batsmen knows he can't just step down the wicket and pad it away like Pujara did in the Aus series. I think he got out once while he was doing that IIRC. Asian teams attack differently by placing a legslip for the right hander. This is a waste when there is no spin and bite off the track. It also makes the off spinner bowl straighter which is not a good method in sena.

Swann and Lyon turn the ball more and they are not brought up on pitches which along with SG ball's bounce do most of the work for them.

 

Bedi and Prassana won't work in this era of giant bats and small grounds. Prassana was more known for flight and dip rather than turn.Bedi was not a match winner even in those days.Yes he was good but I don't rate Bedi has great match winner.He too was dependent on flight and loop rather than turn.

Ashwin's peak is over, he will never lead India to wins overseas.His fitness is a big issue, I think Ashwin is closer to end of his career.Ashwin thinking that he is smarter than everyone else is his problem.

[Insidious]

On 9/2/2019 at 1:43 PM, express bowling said:

 

As @Rightarmfast rightly pointed out ... Chandra, Bedi and Prasanna did not have the advantage of pacers supporting them away from home ... still they fared better.

Ashwin is the most over-rated bowler among all the spinners, we have ever produced. The guy is incapable of bowling six stock deliveries in a single over. He was the one of the main reason for losing against 2012 home series against England. But became brilliant between 2014-17. But after that he became just a decent spinner mainly because of his fitness issues and over experimentation.

 

He has single-handedly cost us at least one match against England in the test series last year, where any other decent spinner could have made difference in the outcome. It is because of his over experimentation and lack of patience and belief in his stock delivery, he is under-acheiving in test cricket.