Solution to Kashmir

[Norman]

13 hours ago, Autonomous said:

The day you step foot into Baltistan or AJK, you will be bringing upon, the nuclear war in region. 

 

 

Your bluff has been called long back brother. Your iron brother and Amreeka control when and how you use your "nukes". No way they're going to let loose the leash. 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Your bluff has been called long back brother. Your iron brother and Amreeka control when and how you use your "nukes". No way they're going to let loose the leash. 

Exactly, I am not sure if you followed the argument, but thats exactly what I said that Imran khan himself said this in Parliament. “ Kya karein, war declare kar dein?”

ISPR it self said that “they will fight till last bullet for Pakistan” not “Kashmr”. 

 

@Autonomous is unable to understand why GB and rest is not being declared as part of Pakistan by Imran Khan. What he doesn’t gets is Pakjabi are not stupid to make Kashmir as Pakistan and take associated risk with it.

Definitin and boundries of India and Pakistan are as per agreement between Nehuru Jinnah and lord Mounbetten

Edited September 23, 2019 by mishra

[mishra]

^ @Autonomous @First classAlso, legal documents are a must and it must be adhered to. Nehuru could have sent Indian armed forces way earlier to support Maharaja Hari Singh. But he did not, Because the document of anexxation Hari Singh was ready to sign was conditional. Nehuru returned the docs from Hari Singha, insisted that no support till the document signed between J&K (Hari Singh) and India is exactly same as what documents were signed between India and other princely states. Only after Hari Singh signed the doc, Nehuru sent the forces.

Even in case of article 370, so many legal loopholes were looked into and made use of by successive GoI. Even current 370 abbrogation is not a abrogation. But in legal terms, article 370 will not be practiced henceforth. And even in that there is a case in SC, where it says, before "Not to be practiced" situation, there was a requirement to have a discussion in "Kasmiri Parliament".  Any "recommendation" out of that "Discussion" was not a "Binding". But I am sure GoI will argue that since "Discusiion" was held in "India Parliament", it should meet the requirement under new powers granted to Indian Parliament by Kashmir and President of India.

 

Bhai "Paper pakke hone chahiye".  There is a reason, lawyers who chalk out such agreement are richest professionals in world. Look at CPEC. Lack of proper lawyers and documentations has made Pakistan premier to go in person and take temporary relief from Chinese. i.e Blackmail by Chinese will go on for life of Pakistan

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by mishra

[sandeep]

20 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Keep dreaming buddy

 

I see you have ducked my questions on Baba Jan.  As well as on your claim on India violating legal agreements.   And prefer to engage on more infantile tangents - those are much easier to dismiss aren't they.

 

 

On 9/20/2019 at 12:39 PM, sandeep said:

Since you are claiming Gilgit Baltistan is not part of PoK, then you should have no problems with Ladakh becoming an Indian Union Territory then.  Btw, can you do me a favor and explain to me who Baba Jan is? He is from GB btw.  

 

Care to point to ONE document/agreement/system that India has violated?  Before you start jumping up and down about "plebescite".  Those require total withdrawal of Pak forces from PoK and Gilgit Baltistan - regardless whether you agree with that or not.  Leave that aside, and please try to list any other agreements that Indian govt has broken.  

 

Do Pakistanis even understand how generous India was to Pakistan when it comes to the Indus Water Treaty?  It had no reason to sign away as much water rights that it did, as the upper riparian state.  But it did so, in the interests of long-term peace and co-operation.  And till date, India has yet to violate this treaty. 

 

Its a separate issue that PakMil mafia love to feed your ignorant awaam all kinds of lies and propaganda about Pakistan's water problems being India's fault - given the fact that Pak govt has miserably mismanaged its water resources.  Just look at the Railways in India and Pakistan - both countries inherited the system as-is at Independence.  I view India's failure and delay in modernizing its network as a massive failure. But comparing it to Pakistan's railway state, it seems that Indian government should get medals instead. Same thing with Pakistani rivers, canals and waterways.  Pure mismanagement, and instead of working to fix the problems, just blame India.

 

When it comes to agreements, Pakistan was instructed by the UN to withdraw ALL its forces from J&K, it did not.  Pakistan invaded the valley in 1965 and lost.  Pakistan signed the Shimla agreement in 1971, which commits Pakistan to discussing ALL issues including Kashmir, to bilateral negotiations.  But Pakistan has been whining, crying and begging for decades to anybody who will listen for "mediation".   Pakistan agreed in 2003 to cease cross-border terrorism, including across the LOC.  Your dictator of the moment went on TV to make this promise.  It has violated this promise thousands of times since then.  Pakistan is yet to convict any of the accused for the 2008 attacks in my beloved Mumbai, despite international commitments to do so.  

 

There is a reason why no country in the world is supporting Pakistan's public chest-beating today over Kashmir. In spite of Indian govt's clear violation of civil rights there.   The entire world is willing to give the benefit of the doubt and a bit of slack to the Indian government - because it knows that the issue is messy, and the Indian govt has earned its credibility and goodwill over decades.  Pakistan has done the exact opposite.  

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by sandeep

[Autonomous]

3 hours ago, sandeep said:

I see you have ducked my questions on Baba Jan.  As well as on your claim on India violating legal agreements.   And prefer to engage on more infantile tangents - those are much easier to dismiss aren't they.

 

 

 

Yes, India is getting away with human rights violation. Now, my point is, do you seriously think you can send over forces and get all that land in a territory that is long controlled by Pakistan. Not happening bud.

 

Your antics in IOK may not be highlighted but beyond that, you can't do a jack. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Autonomous

[Autonomous]

To your so called accession:

 

Accordingly, the Maharaja signed an instrument of accession on 26 October 1947, which was accepted by the Governor General the next day.[48][49][50] While the Government of India accepted the accession, it added the proviso that it would be submitted to a "reference to the people" after the state is cleared of the invaders, since "only the people, not the Maharaja, could decide where Kashmiris wanted to live." It was a provisional accession.

 

It was a "provisional accession"

[Mariyam]

2 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

To your so called accession:

 

Accordingly, the Maharaja signed an instrument of accession on 26 October 1947, which was accepted by the Governor General the next day.[48][49][50] While the Government of India accepted the accession, it added the proviso that it would be submitted to a "reference to the people" after the state is cleared of the invaders, since "only the people, not the Maharaja, could decide where Kashmiris wanted to live." It was a provisional accession.

 

It was a "provisional accession"

Yes. A provisional accession. Subject to the withdrawal of the Kabaili laskhars that Pakistan sent into what is now PoK. But Pakistan never withdrew those laskhars. Instead it changed the demography of the part of Kashmir it occupied. That is why the provisional accession is still a valid instrument of law.

[mishra]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

To your so called accession:

 

Accordingly, the Maharaja signed an instrument of accession on 26 October 1947, which was accepted by the Governor General the next day.[48][49][50] While the Government of India accepted the accession, it added the proviso that it would be submitted to a "reference to the people" after the state is cleared of the invaders, since "only the people, not the Maharaja, could decide where Kashmiris wanted to live." It was a provisional accession.

 

It was a "provisional accession"

That was after 1.5 years of deadlock war in kashmir, that India agreed in UN for a plebiscite to achieve peace. Rest is history. But document between India J&k is still same. Ie No provisions. Stop at nxt day itself ie 28 oct 1948

Edited September 23, 2019 by mishra

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

To your so called accession:

 

Accordingly, the Maharaja signed an instrument of accession on 26 October 1947, which was accepted by the Governor General the next day.[48][49][50] While the Government of India accepted the accession, it added the proviso that it would be submitted to a "reference to the people" after the state is cleared of the invaders, since "only the people, not the Maharaja, could decide where Kashmiris wanted to live." It was a provisional accession.

 

It was a "provisional accession"

The provisions of the accession clause calling for reference to the people have not been met. Foreign invader still holds territory. Do Pakistanis not understand basic law at all ??

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

Yes, India is getting away with human rights violation. Now, my point is, do you seriously think you can send over forces and get all that land in a territory that is long controlled by Pakistan. Not happening bud.

 

Your antics in IOK may not be highlighted but beyond that, you can't do a jack. 

We can do to NA , Baluchistan and NWFP what we did to Bangladesh. You think we are cowards and keep sending terrorists against us, keep declaring war. But we will dismember you because we’ve gotten the message. If a nation is going to be aggressive despite being awarded 100,000 of their PoWs with no strings attached , the message is clear. In 100 years there won’t be a Pakistan. We will break it up. Wait and see. Indus Valley region has only three possible fates in history: ruled by foreigners, ruled by polities from the Ganges or being harmless small polities serving as buffer between mega Iran and mega India. 

[mishra]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Yes. A provisional accession. Subject to the withdrawal of the Kabaili laskhars that Pakistan sent into what is now PoK. But Pakistan never withdrew those laskhars. Instead it changed the demography of the part of Kashmir it occupied. That is why the provisional accession is still a valid instrument of law.

Mariyamji, you are expert. How come accession document becomes provisional? Apart from breaking the deadlock between India and Pakistan in UN? Can a permanent document become temporary a year later @Mariyam

Edited September 23, 2019 by mishra

[Autonomous]

1 hour ago, Mariyam said:

Yes. A provisional accession. Subject to the withdrawal of the Kabaili laskhars that Pakistan sent into what is now PoK. But Pakistan never withdrew those laskhars. Instead it changed the demography of the part of Kashmir it occupied. That is why the provisional accession is still a valid instrument of law.

Back your claims. 

 

Anyways, the people of GB want to be integrated with Pakistan. 

 

Accession means nothing in context now. 

[Autonomous]

5 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

We can do to NA , Baluchistan and NWFP what we did to Bangladesh. You think we are cowards and keep sending terrorists against us, keep declaring war. But we will dismember you because we’ve gotten the message. If a nation is going to be aggressive despite being awarded 100,000 of their PoWs with no strings attached , the message is clear. In 100 years there won’t be a Pakistan. We will break it up. Wait and see. Indus Valley region has only three possible fates in history: ruled by foreigners, ruled by polities from the Ganges or being harmless small polities serving as buffer between mega Iran and mega India. 

What pile of junk. 

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Autonomous said:

Back your claims. 

 

Anyways, the people of GB want to be integrated with Pakistan. 

 

Accession means nothing in context now. 

Evidence is PoK. End of discussion. foreign presence has not been deleted from all lands of crown principality of Kashmir. 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Autonomous said:

What pile of junk. 

Ok. Wait and see. Feel free to ignore us, it will make our job easier. 

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, Autonomous said:

Yes, India is getting away with human rights violation. Now, my point is, do you seriously think you can send over forces and get all that land in a territory that is long controlled by Pakistan. Not happening bud.

 

Your antics in IOK may not be highlighted but beyond that, you can't do a jack. 

Still no answer on Baba Jan.

 

Still no example of India 'violating' any int'l agreements.

 

Btw, I agree that HR violation anywhere are a tragedy and should be avoided and condemned.  However, are you aware that any action that the Indian govt or security forces have taken in J&K, the same and much worse has been done, and is being done by the PakMil in your entire country?  Often using the same legal codes - Section 144 etc - that both countries share?  Do you know that internet has been suspended on and off in large parts of Balochistan and FATA?   Do you know that illegal forced detention and 'disappearances' are not only frequently done by PakMil, but are actually "legal" in Pakistan?  About a year ago, PakMil forces gunned down a family on a highway in Punjab, in the name of fighting terrorism.  Did that family get justice? 

Do you know how many days Mohsin Dawar and Ali Wazir spent in jail without being charged of anything? In spite of being elected members of Pakistani "parliament"? 

 

My point is, that Pakistani complaints and concerns of "human rights" in Indian Kashmir ring completely hollow when the same Pakistanis apparently are completely fine with such violations in their own country.  Pakistani noises about Kashmiri rights are simply a fig-leaf for a desire to take more territory away from India than they managed to in 1947.  And the world, not just Indians, recognize this fact now. 

 

If Pakistan or Pakistanis genuinely cared about Kashmiris, their policy over the last 70 years would have been very very different.

 

[sandeep]

43 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

What pile of junk. 

He has a point - you are unable to see the bigger picture.  Harsh reality is that Pakistan today barely has any sovereignty to speak of.  They dare not say even one word against either US or China on any official forum.  Or even the Saudi's for that matter.  Pakistani muslims were so paranoid and desperate to get away from "hindu" domination, that  they have allowed their nation-state to be whored out to unkil sam, unkil saud, and unkil cheen. 

 

There is only way out for Pakistan to truly pull itself out of the disastrous basketcase it is.  Improved relations and better economic integration with India.  If that doesn't happen, Pakistan and its citizens will continue to pay a very heavy price for the delusions of its elite to try and "compete" against India.  The jernails and zamindars of Pakistan don't care because they are getting their cut either way, but its the people who should care.

 

Rest all is noise. 

[Autonomous]

37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

Still no answer on Baba Jan.

 

Still no example of India 'violating' any int'l agreements.

 

Btw, I agree that HR violation anywhere are a tragedy and should be avoided and condemned.  However, are you aware that any action that the Indian govt or security forces have taken in J&K, the same and much worse has been done, and is being done by the PakMil in your entire country?  Often using the same legal codes - Section 144 etc - that both countries share?  Do you know that internet has been suspended on and off in large parts of Balochistan and FATA?   Do you know that illegal forced detention and 'disappearances' are not only frequently done by PakMil, but are actually "legal" in Pakistan?  About a year ago, PakMil forces gunned down a family on a highway in Punjab, in the name of fighting terrorism.  Did that family get justice? 

Do you know how many days Mohsin Dawar and Ali Wazir spent in jail without being charged of anything? In spite of being elected members of Pakistani "parliament"? 

 

My point is, that Pakistani complaints and concerns of "human rights" in Indian Kashmir ring completely hollow when the same Pakistanis apparently are completely fine with such violations in their own country.  Pakistani noises about Kashmiri rights are simply a fig-leaf for a desire to take more territory away from India than they managed to in 1947.  And the world, not just Indians, recognize this fact now. 

 

If Pakistan or Pakistanis genuinely cared about Kashmiris, their policy over the last 70 years would have been very very different.

 

I have replied to your comment over Baba Jaan by stating the fact that GB wants to be integrated with Pakistan (This is a well documented fact, you may google it as well for your joy), this kills any of your point under likes of baba jaan. 

 

Now moving over to FATA and Balochistan, I agree that these areas are under developed and Pakistan should invest more in these regions for Tourism, Industry, Resource Exploitation, Foreign Investment etc. (Although before that you need peace in Balochistan), Any issues should be resolved internally and peacefully among. 

 

I would like to mention here, that one wrong won't turn other wrong into a right, it sums up as "you scratch my back and i'll scratch yours"

 

If India is capable, then it should show some results by turning IOK into something like Switzerland rather than taking people in by force or putting up ban over internet, For god sake bro, can you imagine 21st century without internet? I can't, tbh. 

[Autonomous]

38 minutes ago, sandeep said:

He has a point - you are unable to see the bigger picture.  Harsh reality is that Pakistan today barely has any sovereignty to speak of.  They dare not say even one word against either US or China on any official forum.  Or even the Saudi's for that matter.  Pakistani muslims were so paranoid and desperate to get away from "hindu" domination, that  they have allowed their nation-state to be whored out to unkil sam, unkil saud, and unkil cheen. 

 

There is only way out for Pakistan to truly pull itself out of the disastrous basketcase it is.  Improved relations and better economic integration with India.  If that doesn't happen, Pakistan and its citizens will continue to pay a very heavy price for the delusions of its elite to try and "compete" against India.  The jernails and zamindars of Pakistan don't care because they are getting their cut either way, but its the people who should care.

 

Rest all is noise. 

I don't like army or forces, they have too much of say and control. There is also no point supporting proxy wars, In my opinion, LoC should be acknowledged as an International Border and thereby both countries can move on rather than straining resources. 

[sandeep]

31 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

I have replied to your comment over Baba Jaan by stating the fact that GB wants to be integrated with Pakistan (This is a well documented fact, you may google it as well for your joy), this kills any of your point under likes of baba jaan. 

Just like Ladakh wishes to integrate with India.  And no, that doesn't "kill" anything.  Point is that any "rights" violation you can accuse India of being guilty of in J&K, you will already find that Pakistan have done that already in "their' portion of Kashmir, and even in the rest of their country.  And Baba Jan is a good example of that.

 

33 minutes ago, Autonomous said:

If India is capable, then it should show some results by turning IOK into something like Switzerland rather than taking people in by force or putting up ban over internet, For god sake bro, can you imagine 21st century without internet? I can't, tbh. 

Well, if Pakistan didn't keep interfering and feeding the delusions of "Nzam e Mustafa" in J&K, Indian Kashmir would be well on its way to "something like switzerland.  In fact, in spite of all the troubles that Indian J&K has, Indian Kashmir is still better developed than most of Pakistan. 

 

And talking about internet - PakMil recently shut down internet in "Azad" Kashmir too.  And it has been mostly inoperative in Balochistan, FATA etc. - at the mercy of PakMil.

 

I agree that 2 wrongs don't make a right - and yes, Balochistan, FATA, GB etc should be left to their own devices and integrate with Pakistan - just like J&K with India.  But it takes 2 hands to clap.  And India have not really bothered about Balochistan etc for the last 70 years, but same can't be said about Pakistan and its nose poking into India.  If Pakistan stops its stupidity, then you will quickly see that India will reciprocate.  But the days of India ignoring Pakistani provocations are over.