Muloghonto Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Thank you. These schemes are negligible in impact and no where near to improve the situation. The opposite is happening i.e. numbers of Muslims in jobs and education is getting worse. Your provided list names "Sachal Commission". But in practice, the recommendations of Sachal Commission regarding Muslim Community have been totally neglected. If you really want to end the discussion, then it is the Sachal Commission report and recommendations, which is clear that Muslim community has no chance to compete or to improve in the present situation. Sachal Commission knows very well the situation of other communities too, and that is why it didn't recommend the same for the other communities. Off course, Right wing comes up with tens of excuses against Sachal Commission report, but we could see it clearly that Muslims are becoming 3rd class citizens in modern democratic India slowly, but gradually. One thing the Koran is right on: you reap what you sow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 6 hours ago, mishra said: If you tweet on SM a political view, You should have balls to defend yourself because political views may invoke strong reactions. Unfortunately, the difference in Opinion is not respected in the modern democratic India, but it is met with extreme hatred, harshness, abuse, social boycott, in some cases loosing job. It is already a form of dictatorship .... a dictatorship from the majority who have all the government powers as well as street crime power against you. Bringing society to this limit of polarisation is not good for India. During congress rule, Indian Muslims (at least the majority) did take pride in being Indian. But with extreme polarisation, they all will face what happened to Jews in Germany, or what Rohingiya saw in Burma, or what is happening to Muslims in China. Muloghonto, Laaloo and mishra 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Alam_dar said: Thank you. These schemes are negligible in impact and no where near to improve the situation. The opposite is happening i.e. numbers of Muslims in jobs and education is getting worse. Your provided list names "Sachal Commission". But in practice, the recommendations of Sachal Commission regarding Muslim Community have been totally neglected. If you really want to end the discussion, then it is the Sachal Commission report and recommendations, which is clear that Muslim community has no chance to compete or to improve in the present situation. Sachal Commission knows very well the situation of other communities too, and that is why it didn't recommend the same for the other communities. Off course, Right wing comes up with tens of excuses against Sachal Commission report, but we could see it clearly that Muslims are becoming 3rd class citizens in modern democratic India slowly, but gradually. How many of them benefit Hindus? How many have been removed from list since past MMS government? Before lecturing that Islam is under attack, How many Of them have parallels in neighbouring conutries of India? You are advicating, Muslims should have reservations based on percentages of population, which country has such rule in world? In Constitution of India, there is no such provisions for minorities still In selective educational institutes, they do have reservations in India. Edited December 20, 2019 by mishra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) @Alam_dar hate to do this but after seeing your posts simply have to. This one is doing the rounds on SM, forwarding it sans editing. Kindly give an explanation, then we can discuss how to proceed to chart out a course of action to untangle the knots we seem to have tied ourselves in. Nothing to do with OP, counter post to your contribution on this thread. Quote Our Muslims Brothers & Sisters are not happy. I actually feel very sad for this as a human being. They’re not happy in Gaza They're not happy in Egypt They're not happy in Libya They're not happy in Morocco They're not happy in Iran They're not happy in Iraq They're not happy in Yemen They're not happy in Afghanistan They're not happy in Pakistan They're not happy in Syria They're not happy in Lebanon ************************************* Lets Find The reason Why.. So, where are they happy? They're happy in Australia They're happy in England They're happy in France They're happy in Italy They're happy in Germany They're happy in Sweden They're happy in the USA & Canada They're happy in INDIA They're happy in almost every country that is not Islamic! And who do they blame? Not Islam.. Not their leadership.. Not themselves.. THEY BLAME THE COUNTRIES THEY ARE HAPPY IN!! And they want to change the countries they're happy in, to be like the countries they came from where they were unhappy. ********************************** Buddhists living with Hindus = No Problem Hindus living with Christians = No Problem Christians living with Shintos = No Problem Shintos living with Confucians = No Problem Confusians living with Bahai's = No Problem Bahai's living with Jews = No Problem Jews living with Atheists = No Problem Atheists living with Buddhists = No Problem Buddhists living with Sikhs = No Problem Sikhs living with Hindus = No Problem Hindus living with Bahai's = No Problem Bahai's living with Christians = No Problem Christians living with Jews = No Problem Jews living with Buddhists = No Problem Buddhists living with Shintos = No Problem Shintos living with Atheists = No Problem Atheists living with Confucians = No Problem Confusians living with Hindus = No Problem Now.. Muslims living with Hindus = Problem Muslims living with Buddhists = Problem Muslims living with Christians = Problem Muslims living with Jews = Problem Muslims living with Sikhs = Problem Muslims living with Bahai's = Problem Muslims living with Shintos = Problem Muslims living with Atheists = Problem MUSLIMS LIVING WITH MUSLIMS = BIG PROBLEM ! Who is at fault, the rest of humanity? Or should Muslims introspect? For India to shine, it needs 200 million of its pop to feel safe and maximize potential. But don't you think crying victimhood all the time will hinder that? First step towards recovery is acceptance, is the community at this stage yet? Problem solving entails a process, if one keeps making excuses will there be progress? Edited December 20, 2019 by Gollum Laaloo, LordPrabhzy and mishra 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Gollum said: @Alam_dar hate to do this but after seeing your posts simply have to. This one is doing the rounds on SM, forwarding it sans editing. Kindly give an explanation, then we can discuss how to proceed to chart out a course of action to untangle the knots we seem to have tied ourselves in. Nothing to do with OP, counter post to your contribution on this thread. Who is at fault, the rest of humanity? Or should Muslims introspect? For India to shine, it needs 200 million of its pop to feel safe and maximize potential. But don't you think crying victimhood all the time will hinder that? First step towards recovery is acceptance, is the community at this stage yet? Problem solving entails a process, if one keeps making excuses will there be progress? Brother, I fully admit the dangers of Islam. I fully understand your concerns. I count Muslims as the prime culprits. And if comes to war, then I will be fighting from your ranks against the extremist Muslims. But we have to pursue for a sensible middle path, where on one side we don't get blackmailed from the Muslims, but on the other hand "Moderate Muslims" should not be punished too much. Otherwise, in present situation, it is going to end only in bloodbath, just like what happened to Jews, or Rohingiyas or Ughairs in China. It is not a fault of a child that he is born in a Muslim family. But he is going to get the punishment for this. If there really exist any Allah/Bhagwan, then this Allah/Bhagwan is to be blamed for this. And if there exist no Allah/Bhagwan, then we Humans have to take the blame of this bloodbath. In simple words, I want the Secularists to move to the centre and they should realise the danger of Islam. while the far right has also to move towards the centre. Secular left and the Religious right, both should stand on the same platform against the dangers of Islam. Edited December 20, 2019 by Alam_dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Brother, I fully admit the dangers of Islam. I fully understand your concerns. I count Muslims as the prime culprits. And if comes to war, then I will be fighting from your ranks against the extremist Muslims. But we have to pursue for a sensible middle path, where on one side we don't get blackmailed from the Muslims, but on the other hand "Moderate Muslims" should not be punished too much. Otherwise, in present situation, it is going to end only in bloodbath, just like what happened to Jews, or Rohingiyas or Ughairs in China. It is not a fault of a child that he is born in a Muslim family. But he is going to get the punishment for this. If there really exist any Allah/Bhagwan, then this Allah/Bhagwan is to be blamed for this. And if there exist no Allah/Bhagwan, then we Humans have to take the blame of this bloodbath. Onus should be on moderates to bring change from within and swell the numbers thus sidelining the vocal extremist faction. This isn't just happening in India, since it is a global problem I don't think moderate Muslims are doing enough. Victim mentality, rigidity and holding grudges won't yield results.....assimilation, respecting way of life of others, consensus building etc hold the key. Coming to your previous posts, if Muslims aren't doing that well economically, or less focus on education how are others to blame and not the community? Majority Muslims are covered under reservation (OBC), they have more than enough rights enshrined in the Constitution when it comes to education, employment, anti-discrimination etc...so who is responsible? Dalits have been persecuted more than Muslims, esp in the historical context, till very recently they lacked political representation and started from the bottom, how come they have made a significant stride forward now? Likewise why do Muslims resist positive social change? The ban on (bizarre) instant Triple Talaq is a recent example, movement spearheaded by aggrieved Muslim women victims....when judiciary and govt combined to give them justice why was there so much opposition from within? The ladies who went to the courts over this matter are now under 24x7 police protection because of threats, are Hindus responsible for that as well? As an outsider when I see the Shah Bano farce of the 80s (google it, ulema involved backed by popular community support) and almost 40 years later the aftermath of TT ban...I fail to see progress in the mindset of the community, only that GOI now is more decisive and stubborn. Edited December 20, 2019 by Gollum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Gollum said: Onus should be on moderates to bring change from within and swell the numbers thus sidelining the vocal extremist faction. This isn't just happening in India, since it is a global problem I don't think moderate Muslims are doing enough. Victim mentality, rigidity and holding grudges won't yield results.....assimilation, respecting way of life of others, consensus building etc hold the key. Coming to your previous posts, if Muslims aren't doing that well economically, or less focus on education how are others to blame and not the community? Majority Muslims are covered under reservation (OBC), they have more than enough rights enshrined in the Constitution when it comes to education, employment, anti-discrimination etc...so who is responsible? Dalits have been persecuted more than Muslims, esp in the historical context, till very recently they lacked political representation and started from the bottom, how come they have made a significant stride forward now? Likewise why do Muslims resist positive social change? The ban on (bizarre) instant Triple Talaq is a recent example, movement spearheaded by aggrieved Muslim women victims....when judiciary and govt combined to give them justice why was there so much opposition from within? The ladies who went to the courts over this matter are now under 24x7 police protection because of threats, are Hindus responsible for that as well? As an outsider when I see the Shah Bano farce of the 80s (google it, ulema involved backed by popular community support) and almost 40 years later the aftermath of TT ban...I fail to see progress in the mindset of the community, only that GOI now is more decisive and stubborn. Moderate Muslims CANNOT do anything. The Koran isn’t like the bible, which is full of contradictions and you can use John’s chapters on ‘turn the other cheek’ to overrule Ezikiel on ‘eye for an eye’. The Koran is completely internally consistent and if a moderate Muslim says ‘ we should get along with the Kaffirs’ the hardliners will simply point out the verses in Koran that ask Muslims to not befriend Kaffirs, wage war on them, etc and then say ‘ you are no real muslim’. Now the moderate has a dilemma: be branded a superficial ignorant pseudo-muslim or cave and stfu. This I have seen with my own two eyes and this dynamics cannot be overriden. Gollum 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandeep Posted December 20, 2019 Author Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 13 hours ago, mishra said: Because you are making baseless statement. Don’t see Hindus with blinkered view of Islamic state of Pakistan. There are various schemes for minorIties( Read Muslims) which Hindus feel are unfair but still do not even protest against http://www.minorityaffairs.gov.in/sites/default/files/Schemes of MoMA and Schemes covered under PM's New 15-PP-Final.pdf Job in private sector is determined by capability and capability alone. End of discussion there. BJP and its voters are fedup of appeasement politics and see appeasement schemes are for Muslims only when Real minorities are Sikhs, Jains, Budhists, Christians, Parasis. They are doing absolutely fine or better than Hindus in Democratic India. Don't engage with trolls - he's got an agenda and tries to mask it with "trying to sound reasonable". Dishonest folks do not deserve discussion. Edited December 20, 2019 by sandeep mishra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Gollum said: Onus should be on moderates to bring change from within and swell the numbers thus sidelining the vocal extremist faction. This isn't just happening in India, since it is a global problem I don't think moderate Muslims are doing enough. Victim mentality, rigidity and holding grudges won't yield results.....assimilation, respecting way of life of others, consensus building etc hold the key. Majority Muslims are covered under reservation (OBC), they have more than enough rights enshrined in the Constitution when it comes to education, employment, anti-discrimination etc...so who is responsible? In my opinion, Islam could not be reformed internally. Thus moderate Muslims have no chance. In order to bring reforms, you should be allowed to do the criticise. But Islam gives no permission to criticise it. An outside pressure is needed for any reforms in Islam. For example, Europeans kicked the Muslim buttocks and made them to sign the pact of abolishment of slavery. Muslim States were the the last to sign this pact (Saudi Arabia did it only in 1966). This shows, indeed this external pressure could work. Same thing we saw in case of triple Talaq. It were not only the Hindu right wing, but it were also the liberal women movements and left wing Media and intellectuals too, who all were standing against Mullahs on this Issue. And at last, I didn't know that "majority" of Muslims come under OBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishra Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: An outside pressure is needed for any reforms in Islam. For example, Europeans kicked the Muslim buttocks and made them to sign the pact of abolishment of slavery. Muslim States were the the last to sign this pact (Saudi Arabia did it only in 1966). This shows, indeed this external pressure could work. And moderates are first one to oppose even basic "nudge" to reform from "outside pressure". Hopefully, now you realize why members herer distrust you, and call you, one with agenda. Because we know, thats how so called , the ones who claim themselves "moderate" behave Muloghonto 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 5 minutes ago, sandeep said: Don't engage with trolls - he's got an agenda and tries to mask it with "trying to sound reasonable". Dishonest folks do not deserve discussion. Dishonest? How? I agree fully that I have my own Agenda, but I strongly disagree with your opinion about dishonesty. I am fully honest with my Agenda i.e.: * I am an ex-Muslim, so I criticise Islam. * I am also an atheist, therefore I criticise all religions. * I am a left wing humanist. Therefore, I criticise the right wing and human rights violation. Where do you see any dishonesty here? If you mean that Secularists, Humanists, Left wing people are not allowed to criticise Religions, but only t respect them, then you are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, sandeep said: Don't engage with trolls - he's got an agenda and tries to mask it with "trying to sound reasonable". Dishonest folks do not deserve discussion. Totally agree,even if you convince him in this thread, he will repeat the same in another thread to hijack the OP. Baki troll , mishra 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muloghonto Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 28 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Dishonest? How? I agree fully that I have my own Agenda, but I strongly disagree with your opinion about dishonesty. I am fully honest with my Agenda i.e.: * I am an ex-Muslim, so I criticise Islam. * I am also an atheist, therefore I criticise all religions. * I am a left wing humanist. Therefore, I criticise the right wing and human rights violation. Where do you see any dishonesty here? If you mean that Secularists, Humanists, Left wing people are not allowed to criticise Religions, but only t respect them, then you are wrong. Correction, you are an abrahamic atheist. Who don’t show any regard to culture and it’s impact. Dharmic atheists like me, vast majority of Chinese or Japanese do not denigrate culture and inane rituals like abrahamic atheists do. you are also inconsistent with Islam: you say it cannot be reformed internally and must be reformed through outside pressure- which is true. But then you oppose any and all outside pressure- be it gentle nudge like India or full scale de-islamification like China. sergio04 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alam_dar Posted December 20, 2019 Share Posted December 20, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Totally agree,even if you convince him in this thread, he will repeat the same in another thread to hijack the OP. Baki troll , Thanks. If I stop posting in any thread, then it is not due to the reason that I agree with you, but it is due to the reason that I feel that we both have presented our point of views and thus no point in prolonging that particular thread further and the reader could decide themselves by reading the arguments of both sides. If you believe that you have better arguments, then there should be no problem in presenting them at other place too. Edited December 20, 2019 by Alam_dar Mariyam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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