zen Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 AT Test 11 Gavaskar Sehwag Pujara Tendulkar Kohli Dravid Pant (a new boy but, at the moment, edges past others for his performances in SENA) Kapil Shami Bumrah Gupte/Chandra (both can play if an additional spinner is required) Who could captain this 11? Gavaskar, Dravid or Other?
AuxiliA Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 In tests it has to be Kohli. Don't confuse his LoIs captaincy with tests. He is poor at containing runs hence he struggles in LoIs and IPL, but tests are all about taking wickets and he is excellent at that. The same bowlers who played under Dhoni have now become a lot more lethal under him.
Vijy Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, zen said: AT Test 11 Gavaskar Sehwag Pujara Tendulkar Kohli Dravid Pant (a new boy but, at the moment, edges past others for his performances in SENA) Kapil Shami Bumrah Gupte/Chandra (both can play if an additional spinner is required) Who could captain this 11? Gavaskar, Dravid or Other? Zen, I have a few issues with this XI. First and foremost, this is too batting heavy and too light on batting - remember that one all-time XI will only play other all-time XIs, most of which will have exceptional batting. Here are 2 of my own takes for an all-conditions XI (which includes pattas, raging turners and green mambas): Sehwag & Sunny (no-brainer, although Merchant is a great back-up) Dravid & SRT (also no-brainers at 3 and 4) Ratman (has stiff competition from peak-Amarnath, Laxman and Hazare) Kapil (batting a bit too high at 6; ideally suited at 7) Saha (best keeper Ind has ever had) Ashwin (arguably most consistent spinner on turners and can bat at 8); jaddu is also a possibility (and is batting better than ashwin) but I feel ashwin has done well enough as a bowler over past few yrs. Shami/Srinath (very hard choice between the two. Sri had very poor support whereas Shami has had great support - I am inclined towards Sri) Gupte/Chandra (probably the best spinners outside SC - may go with Gupte because he had lesser support and pitches were roads then) Bumrah (no brainer despite young career) Other option is more radical, but I kind of like it as well: Mankad & Sunny (Mankad had an avg of 40+ as an opener and was genuine front-line bowler in super-weak team; was also quite dangerous on turners and could hold up an end via accurate SLA bowling) Dravid & SRT (see above) Ratman (see above) Sehwag (has the license to counter-attack at 6, and can also play 2nd new ball because of opening experience) Kapil & Saha (well-suited at 7 and 8 respectively) Shami/Srinath (see above) Gupte/Chandra (see above) Bumrah (see above) In both teams, there are 5 proper bowling options with 2 proper part-time options in SRT and Sehwag. Both teams bat till 8, but the 1st team has a weak No. 6 whereas the second team has a weak No. 1. For both teams, if I wanted someone tactically astute but more on the defensive side, would go with Dravid. If I want someone who tries to lead from the front and do inspirational work with bat/ball, I'd go with Kapil. If I wanted a baka (i.e., moron in Japanese), I'd go with Rat. Edited February 1, 2020 by Vijy abc and Unstable Joe 2
zen Posted February 1, 2020 Author Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vijy said: Zen, I have a few issues with this XI. First and foremost, this is too batting heavy and too light on batting - remember that one all-time XI will only play other all-time XIs, most of which will have exceptional batting. Here are 2 of my own takes for an all-conditions XI (which includes pattas, raging turners and green mambas): In both teams, there are 5 proper bowling options with 2 proper part-time options in SRT and Sehwag. Both teams bat till 8, but the 1st team has a weak No. 6 whereas the second team has a weak No. 1. For both teams, if I wanted someone tactically astute but more on the defensive side, would go with Dravid. If I want someone who tries to lead from the front and do inspirational work with bat/ball, I'd go with Kapil. If I wanted a baka (i.e., moron in Japanese), I'd go with Rat. My 11 is mainly designed to play in Aus and WI (the two top AT Test teams) .... on turners, most of our top spinners and batsmen will suffice My points for internal discussion were: Pujara vs. Amarnath (both will be in the squad). But rewarded Pujara for his excellent AT level performance in Aus. Both are gritty players who value their wkts. Pujara and Amarnath, along w/ Dravid, can open too if required Kapil vs Sri vs Shami vs Zak. Shami got in for his ability to reverse and his good SR in 3rd/4th inning (iirc). Kapil piped others as an AR and also has a good record in Aus and WI Laxman, Hazare, etc. have fallen out of contention for a spot in 11 with Pujara and Kohli now established. And in an AT11, not everyone can expect to bat in his regular position I had Ashwin in one of my earlier 11s but went with Gupte and Chandra as they are better wkt taking options against AT sides in not so ideal conditions for spinners imo (Tendulkar and Sehwag can bowl a bit of spin too if required). Ashwin batting against AT11 bowling attacks (Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, and Holding; and McGrath, Lillee, Strac, and Warne) is a question mark for me. I would consider him primarily for his bowling. For a game in Ind, Ashwin can be considered In the squad of 15, the others will be Chandra (12th), Amarnath, Srinath/Zak (if I want a left arm option), and Dhoni (WK) For captaincy, I am inclining towards Gavaskar. He understands tests, captained Ind for a long time, and does not have competition for his spot relatively speaking (the best test batsman for Ind). Some of the others can be a good choice too though PS Batting View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000 and batting average greater than or equal to 49 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 V Kohli 2011-2019 84 141 10 7202 254* 54.97 27 22 10 SR Tendulkar 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 51 68 14 R Dravid 1996-2012 163 284 32 13265 270 52.63 36 63 7 SM Gavaskar 1971-1987 125 214 16 10122 236* 51.12 34 45 12 CA Pujara 2010-2019 75 124 8 5740 206* 49.48 18 24 7 V Sehwag 2001-2013 103 178 6 8503 319 49.43 23 31 16 Bowling View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Qualifications bowling average less than or equal to 30 and wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 11 of 11 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 JJ Bumrah 2018-2019 12 24 2711 1193 62 6/27 9/86 19.24 2.64 43.7 5 0 RA Jadeja 2012-2019 48 92 12822 5200 211 7/48 10/154 24.64 2.43 60.7 9 1 R Ashwin 2011-2019 70 131 19412 9183 362 7/59 13/140 25.36 2.83 53.6 27 7 B Kumar 2013-2018 21 37 3348 1644 63 6/82 8/96 26.09 2.94 53.1 4 0 Mohammed Shami 2013-2019 47 91 8602 4742 175 6/56 9/118 27.09 3.30 49.1 5 0 BS Bedi 1966-1979 67 118 21364 7637 266 7/98 10/194 28.71 2.14 80.3 14 1 RG Nadkarni 1955-1968 41 65 9165 2559 88 6/43 11/122 29.07 1.67 104.1 4 1 SP Gupte 1951-1961 36 61 11284 4403 149 9/102 10/223 29.55 2.34 75.7 12 1 N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 131 227 27740 12867 434 9/83 11/146 29.64 2.78 63.9 23 2 A Kumble 1990-2008 132 236 40850 18355 619 10/74 14/149 29.65 2.69 65.9 35 8 BS Chandrasekhar 1964-1979 58 97 15963 7199 242 8/79 12/104 29.74 2.70 65.9 16 2 WK View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Wicketkeeper as designated wicketkeeper Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 500 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 10 of 10 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 RR Pant 2018-2019 11 18 1 754 159* 44.35 2 2 1 MS Dhoni 2005-2014 90 144 16 4876 224 38.09 6 33 10 BK Kunderan 1960-1967 15 28 3 831 192 33.24 2 3 1 PA Patel 2002-2018 25 38 8 934 71 31.13 0 6 4 FM Engineer 1961-1975 46 87 3 2611 121 31.08 2 16 7 WP Saha 2012-2019 36 48 9 1202 117 30.82 3 5 5 SMH Kirmani 1976-1986 88 124 22 2759 102 27.04 2 12 7 KS More 1986-1993 49 64 14 1285 73 25.70 0 7 7 NR Mongia 1994-2001 44 68 8 1442 152 24.03 1 6 6 KD Karthik 2004-2018 19 29 1 516 93 18.42 0 3 4 Edited February 1, 2020 by zen
First class Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 I know we're talking about tests captaincy but still I think Kapil Dev is the greatest captain India has produced. He was a natural leader, who always lead from front and was good in bringing out best from his team.
zen Posted February 1, 2020 Author Posted February 1, 2020 4 minutes ago, First class said: I know we're talking about tests captaincy but still I think Kapil Dev is the greatest captain India has produced. He was a natural leader, who always lead from front and was good in bringing out best from his team. Kapil can motivate by being in the team as well though. Tactically, he could be a bit monotonous (and not innovative relatively speaking) .... Against WI and Aus, you need someone who can also be smart on the field (someone like Gavaskar)
First class Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, zen said: Kapil can motivate by being in the team as well though. Tactically, he could be a bit monotonous (and not innovative relatively speaking) .... Against WI and Aus, you need someone who can also be smart on the field (someone like Gavaskar) He was just 24 when he led a team full of "seniors", and a team which was a good test team but was "minnow" as an ODI team against an all time great ODI team at the biggest cricketing stage and won the world cup. This has to be one of the greatest leadership performance in game's history. Edited February 2, 2020 by First class Vijy 1
Vijy Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, zen said: My 11 is mainly designed to play in Aus and WI (the two top AT Test teams) .... on turners, most of our top spinners and batsmen will suffice My points for internal discussion were: Pujara vs. Amarnath (both will be in the squad). But rewarded Pujara for his excellent AT level performance in Aus. Both are gritty players who value their wkts. Pujara and Amarnath, along w/ Dravid, can open too if required Kapil vs Sri vs Shami vs Zak. Shami got in for his ability to reverse and his good SR in 3rd/4th inning (iirc). Kapil piped others as an AR and also has a good record in Aus and WI Laxman, Hazare, etc. have fallen out of contention for a spot in 11 with Pujara and Kohli now established. And in an AT11, not everyone can expect to bat in his regular position I had Ashwin in one of my earlier 11s but went with Gupte and Chandra as they are better wkt taking options against AT sides in not so ideal conditions for spinners imo (Tendulkar and Sehwag can bowl a bit of spin too if required). Ashwin batting against AT11 bowling attacks (Marshall, Ambrose, Garner, and Holding; and McGrath, Lillee, Strac, and Warne) is a question mark for me. I would consider him primarily for his bowling. For a game in Ind, Ashwin can be considered In the squad of 15, the others will be Chandra (12th), Amarnath, Srinath/Zak (if I want a left arm option), and Dhoni (WK) For captaincy, I am inclining towards Gavaskar. He understands tests, captained Ind for a long time, and does not have competition for his spot relatively speaking (the best test batsman for Ind). Some of the others can be a good choice too though PS Batting View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 2000 and batting average greater than or equal to 49 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 6 of 6 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 V Kohli 2011-2019 84 141 10 7202 254* 54.97 27 22 10 SR Tendulkar 1989-2013 200 329 33 15921 248* 53.78 51 68 14 R Dravid 1996-2012 163 284 32 13265 270 52.63 36 63 7 SM Gavaskar 1971-1987 125 214 16 10122 236* 51.12 34 45 12 CA Pujara 2010-2019 75 124 8 5740 206* 49.48 18 24 7 V Sehwag 2001-2013 103 178 6 8503 319 49.43 23 31 16 Bowling View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Qualifications bowling average less than or equal to 30 and wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 11 of 11 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 JJ Bumrah 2018-2019 12 24 2711 1193 62 6/27 9/86 19.24 2.64 43.7 5 0 RA Jadeja 2012-2019 48 92 12822 5200 211 7/48 10/154 24.64 2.43 60.7 9 1 R Ashwin 2011-2019 70 131 19412 9183 362 7/59 13/140 25.36 2.83 53.6 27 7 B Kumar 2013-2018 21 37 3348 1644 63 6/82 8/96 26.09 2.94 53.1 4 0 Mohammed Shami 2013-2019 47 91 8602 4742 175 6/56 9/118 27.09 3.30 49.1 5 0 BS Bedi 1966-1979 67 118 21364 7637 266 7/98 10/194 28.71 2.14 80.3 14 1 RG Nadkarni 1955-1968 41 65 9165 2559 88 6/43 11/122 29.07 1.67 104.1 4 1 SP Gupte 1951-1961 36 61 11284 4403 149 9/102 10/223 29.55 2.34 75.7 12 1 N Kapil Dev 1978-1994 131 227 27740 12867 434 9/83 11/146 29.64 2.78 63.9 23 2 A Kumble 1990-2008 132 236 40850 18355 619 10/74 14/149 29.65 2.69 65.9 35 8 BS Chandrasekhar 1964-1979 58 97 15963 7199 242 8/79 12/104 29.74 2.70 65.9 16 2 WK View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Wicketkeeper as designated wicketkeeper Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 500 Ordered by batting average (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 10 of 10 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns NO Runs HS Ave 100 50 0 RR Pant 2018-2019 11 18 1 754 159* 44.35 2 2 1 MS Dhoni 2005-2014 90 144 16 4876 224 38.09 6 33 10 BK Kunderan 1960-1967 15 28 3 831 192 33.24 2 3 1 PA Patel 2002-2018 25 38 8 934 71 31.13 0 6 4 FM Engineer 1961-1975 46 87 3 2611 121 31.08 2 16 7 WP Saha 2012-2019 36 48 9 1202 117 30.82 3 5 5 SMH Kirmani 1976-1986 88 124 22 2759 102 27.04 2 12 7 KS More 1986-1993 49 64 14 1285 73 25.70 0 7 7 NR Mongia 1994-2001 44 68 8 1442 152 24.03 1 6 6 KD Karthik 2004-2018 19 29 1 516 93 18.42 0 3 4 I still think bowling is far too light, esp against WI, Aus, Eng and SA All-time XIs. However, as we both respect each others' opinions, we can agree to disagree. My reasoning is that it's very hard to bowl to Aus top 6 (2 of whom will have avgs of 60+ and 100; rest will have nearly 50) and the WI top 6 (at least 3 of whom will have 55+ avgs and rest will have 50). Any fair all-time XI will play both home and away, which is why I went with 2 spinners and.3 pacers.
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vijy said: I still think bowling is far too light, esp against WI, Aus, Eng and SA All-time XIs. However, as we both respect each others' opinions, we can agree to disagree. My reasoning is that it's very hard to bowl to Aus top 6 (2 of whom will have avgs of 60+ and 100; rest will have nearly 50) and the WI top 6 (at least 3 of whom will have 55+ avgs and rest will have 50). Any fair all-time XI will play both home and away, which is why I went with 2 spinners and.3 pacers. Note that an additional spinner who struggles in unhelpful conditions is not going to do the trick. Now a Sri/Zak can theoretically come in place of a batsman but that is going to disturb the batting strength (Difficult to rely on Kapil, who avgs 31 with the bat at 7, consistently against an AT bowling attack) which needs to compete with a line up like below for e.g.: Aus AT 11 Batsman (Batting avg) Hayden (51) = Sehwag (49) Ponting (52) < Gavaskar (51) Smith (63) > Pujara (49) Chappell (54) = Tendulkar (54) Border (51) = Kohli (55) S Waugh (51) = Dravid (53) * Had to remove Bradman (100) from Aus lineup to make Ind more competitive on paper WK (batting avg) Gilchrist (48) > Pant (44) - Note that there are better WKs than Gilly in Aus such as Marsh and Healey. But Gilly is being played as he is a WK AR, who can change a game with the bat. Similarly, the case for Pant for India Bowlers Warne >(=) Gupte/Chandra (on their day) Starc/Cummins = Kapil (As Kapil has a good record in Aus) Lillee >(=) Shami (on his day) McGrath = Bumrah Ind is able to compete for its batting. It cannot compromise on its strength to bring in another bowler who can struggle big time when track does not spin and whose batting is a question mark .... Tendulkar and Sehwag will have to bowl if required .... As mention in the OP, if an additional spinner is required in helpful conditions both spinners can play PS your 11 Batsman Hayden (51) = Sehwag (49) Ponting (52) < Gavaskar (51) Smith (63) > Dravid (53) Chappell (54) = Tendulkar (54) Border (51) = Kohli (55) S Waugh (51) >>> Kapil (31) WK Gilchrist (48) >>> Saha (31) Bowlers Warne >(=) Gupte/Chandra (on their day) + Ashwin, who could struggle to perform with either bat or ball Starc/Cummins = Kapil (As Kapil has a good record in Aus) Lillee >(=) Shami (on his day) McGrath = Bumrah While trying to create a balance, the above could create an imbalance relatively Edited February 2, 2020 by zen
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 1 hour ago, First class said: He was just 25 when he led a team full of "seniors", and a team which was a good test team but was "minnow" as an ODI team against an all time great ODI team at the biggest cricketing stage and won the world cup. This has to be one of the greatest leadership performance in game's history. I am talking more from the PoV of strategy. Though in tests, a game changes relatively slowly
Nikola Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, zen said: Hayden (51) = Sehwag (49) Ponting (52) < Gavaskar (51) Lol if hayden with better avg is equal to sehwag then why not ponting is equal to gavaskar? Quote Warne <= Gupte/Chandra (on their day) Lol? Quote Bowlers Starc/Cummins = Kapil (As Kapil has a good record in Aus) Cummins anyday will be better bowler than Kapil in test cricket. If you are comparing as AR then why not Keith Miller? Quote * . Had to remove Bradman (100) from Aus lineup to make Ind more competitive on paper Lol? Quote Lillee <= Shami Lol? Quote McGrath = Bumrah Bumrah has started great but isn't it too early to compare him with one of the greatest test bowler? Can he keep his fitness and get 300 - 350 test wickets? can he maintain standards of getting opposition's best batsman like mcgrath did? we will only know when he retires. Edited February 2, 2020 by Nikola abc 1
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Nikola said: Lol if hayden with better avg is equal to sehwag then why not ponting is equal to gavaskar? While their avg are close, it is not just based on avg. Played in different era as well Quote Cummins anyday will be better bowler than Kapil in test cricket. If you are comparing as AR then why not Keith Miller? Compared as bowlers (they are in bowlers' section). Kapil has a good record in Aus (and WI). And in Ind, he has the experience. Miller can be played too but Aus has sufficient batting depth in my 11 Quote Bumrah has started great but isn't it too early to compare him with one of the greatest test bowler? Can he keep his fitness and get 300 - 350 test wickets? can he maintain standards of getting opposition's best batsman like mcgrath did? we will only know when he retires. That is what Ind is playing in my 11! Bumrah's current form is great so can compete with the best .... Are we picking b/w McGrath and Bumrah? (FYI, McGrath does not make it to my ATG World 11. Except Warne, none of the Aus bowlers do in tests) PS some of your other questions were related to typos so feel free to read the post again .... Edited February 2, 2020 by zen
Vilander Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 3 hours ago, Vijy said: Ratman (has stiff competition from peak-Amarnath, Laxman and Hazare Lol'd on this one but no as good Amarnath was overseas Kohli trumps him pretty comfortably
Vijy Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 1 hour ago, zen said: Note that an additional spinner who struggles in unhelpful conditions is not going to do the trick. Now a Sri/Zak can theoretically come in place of a batsman but that is going to disturb the batting strength (Difficult to rely on Kapil, who avgs 31 with the bat at 7, consistently against an AT bowling attack) which needs to compete with a line up like below for e.g.: Aus AT 11 Batsman (Batting avg) Hayden (51) = Sehwag (49) Ponting (52) < Gavaskar (51) Smith (63) > Pujara (49) Chappell (54) = Tendulkar (54) Border (51) = Kohli (55) S Waugh (51) = Dravid (53) * Had to remove Bradman (100) from Aus lineup to make Ind more competitive on paper WK (batting avg) Gilchrist (48) > Pant (44) - Note that there are better WKs than Gilly in Aus such as Marsh and Healey. But Gilly is being played as he is a WK AR, who can change a game with the bat. Similarly, the case for Pant for India Bowlers Warne >(=) Gupte/Chandra (on their day) Starc/Cummins = Kapil (As Kapil has a good record in Aus) Lillee >(=) Shami (on his day) McGrath = Bumrah Ind is able to compete for its batting. It cannot compromise on its strength to bring in another bowler who can struggle big time when track does not spin and whose batting is a question mark .... Tendulkar and Sehwag will have to bowl if required .... As mention in the OP, if an additional spinner is required in helpful conditions both spinners can play PS your 11 Batsman Hayden (51) = Sehwag (49) Ponting (52) < Gavaskar (51) Smith (63) > Dravid (53) Chappell (54) = Tendulkar (54) Border (51) = Kohli (55) S Waugh (51) >>> Kapil (31) WK Gilchrist (48) >>> Saha (31) Bowlers Warne >(=) Gupte/Chandra (on their day) + Ashwin, who could struggle to perform with either bat or ball Starc/Cummins = Kapil (As Kapil has a good record in Aus) Lillee >(=) Shami (on his day) McGrath = Bumrah While trying to create a balance, the above could create an imbalance relatively you cannot remove bradman just because of "balance". the fact is that Aus AT XI will trounce an Ind AT XI quite comfortably. if you are going to exclude bradman and o'reilly, then you may as well exclude gavaskar/SRT and chandrasekhar. Also, consider the following WI AT XI top 6: Lara, Walcott (57 avg), Weeks (58+ avg), Richards, Headley, Sobers (55+ avg). Just brutal. I chose the best all-conditions XI because I don't think we have bowlers who are such ATGs that only 4 will be enough. I understand that you want to pick a team specifically to play Aus/WI but you are imposing too many constraints (such as no Bradman). The brutal fact is that Ind until 5 yrs ago had zero (exactly zero) bowlers who had 50+ wkts at an avg below 26. now, we have 3 - boom, ash, and jaddu. so, I personally don't believe that a 4 bowler attack of Ind can ever bowl out AT XIs. even if it means sacrificing batting, one has to have a 5th bowler. moreover, pant as keeper will probably drop someone like bradman, headley, or graeme pollock, who will then go on to bash a 200. good keepers (like saha) are worth more than 20+ runs than average keepers (like pant). and warne > Gupte. in fact, it is quite likely that O'reilly > warne. even on current form, mcgrath > bumrah. Lillee may be less than shami perhaps on SC, but on helpful pitches he overtakes him comfortably. sarcastic and abc 2
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Vijy said: you cannot remove bradman just because of "balance". the fact is that Aus AT XI will trounce an Ind AT XI quite comfortably. if you are going to exclude bradman and o'reilly, then you may as well exclude gavaskar/SRT and chandrasekhar. That exercise shows the depth in Aus batting side (even w/o Bradman). And why it is difficult to compete with Kapil + Saha combination at #6 and $7, esp. with Waugh & Gilly att those respective positions for Aus. Quote Also, consider the following WI AT XI top 6: Lara, Walcott (57 avg), Weeks (58+ avg), Richards, Headley, Sobers (55+ avg). Just brutal. I may do a WI 11 too .... no rush atm Quote I chose the best all-conditions XI because I don't think we have bowlers who are such ATGs that only 4 will be enough. I understand that you want to pick a team specifically to play Aus/WI but you are imposing too many constraints (such as no Bradman). The brutal fact is that Ind until 5 yrs ago had zero (exactly zero) bowlers who had 50+ wkts at an avg below 26. now, we have 3 - boom, ash, and jaddu. so, I personally don't believe that a 4 bowler attack of Ind can ever bowl out AT XIs. even if it means sacrificing batting, one has to have a 5th bowler. moreover, pant as keeper will probably drop someone like bradman, headley, or graeme pollock, who will then go on to bash a 200. good keepers (like saha) are worth more than 20+ runs than average keepers (like pant). If that is the bowling attack we have, that is what we have .... A batting and bowling is strengthened by adding players who can add value. Much like you cannot strengthen batting relatively by adding a D Mongia, you cannot strengthen the bowling by adding a spinner in unhelpful conditions. Our spinners most often than not require ideal conditions to be successful. Below are numbers against regular line ups: View overall figures [change view] Primary team India Opposition team Australia or England or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or West Indies Home or away away (home of opposition) Type of bowler (by style) spin bowler Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 40 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 11 of 11 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 SP Gupte 1953-1959 15 25 4836 1854 65 7/162 7/164 28.52 2.30 74.4 6 0 BS Chandrasekhar 1967-1979 26 42 6778 3266 100 6/38 12/104 32.66 2.89 67.7 8 1 BS Bedi 1967-1979 37 64 10973 4350 129 6/127 10/194 33.72 2.37 85.0 6 1 EAS Prasanna 1962-1978 27 45 7660 3182 94 8/76 11/140 33.85 2.49 81.4 5 1 A Kumble 1990-2008 52 94 15856 7650 210 8/141 12/279 36.42 2.89 75.5 9 1 RA Jadeja 2013-2019 13 23 3349 1519 41 6/138 7/258 37.04 2.72 81.6 1 0 R Ashwin 2011-2018 20 34 5107 2476 65 7/83 7/121 38.09 2.90 78.5 2 0 Harbhajan Singh 1998-2011 29 53 7303 3762 98 7/120 8/180 38.38 3.09 74.5 6 0 RJ Shastri 1981-1992 38 57 7373 2989 71 5/125 8/179 42.09 2.43 103.8 1 0 MH Mankad 1946-1955 21 32 6919 2503 59 5/64 7/146 42.42 2.17 117.2 4 0 S Venkataraghavan 1967-1983 25 41 6602 2753 62 5/95 6/96 44.40 2.50 106.4 1 0 Quote and warne > Gupte. in fact, it is quite likely that O'reilly > warne. Lillee may be less than shami perhaps on SC, but on helpful pitches he overtakes him comfortably. Warne is in a league of his own. Our spinners can only compete if they have a great day. Similarly for many of our pace bowlers. Quote good keepers (like saha) are worth more than 20+ runs than average keepers (like pant). Good in theory but in practice, Pant holds the world record of most catches in a test .... also note that a 20 runs difference in "career avg" (not runs in a random inng) demonstrates a different class of batsmanship -> Kapil avgs 31, Gavaskar 51; Healy 27, Gilly 48 Quote even on current form, mcgrath > bumrah. Bumrah is doing well currently: View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or India Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970 Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 50 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 47 of 47 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 JJ Bumrah (INDIA) 2018-2019 12 24 2711 1193 62 6/27 9/86 19.24 2.64 43.7 5 0 GD McGrath (AUS) 1993-2007 124 243 29248 12186 563 8/24 10/27 21.64 2.49 51.9 29 3 PJ Cummins (AUS) 2011-2020 30 57 6761 3121 143 6/23 10/62 21.82 2.76 47.2 5 1 RJ Harris (AUS) 2010-2015 27 52 5736 2658 113 7/117 9/106 23.52 2.78 50.7 5 0 SR Clark (AUS) 2006-2009 24 48 5146 2243 94 5/32 9/89 23.86 2.61 54.7 2 0 DK Lillee (AUS) 1971-1984 70 132 18467 8493 355 7/83 11/123 23.92 2.75 52.0 23 7 BA Reid (AUS) 1985-1992 27 42 6244 2784 113 7/51 13/148 24.63 2.67 55.2 5 2 Edited February 2, 2020 by zen
Ankit_sharma03 Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) Kohli , in a team filled with ATG he cant even chop n change as he loves experience players Edited February 2, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) WI AT 11 Batmen Greenidge (45) = Sehwag (49) Haynes (42) < Gavaskar (51) Headly (61) >= Pujara (49) Lara (53) >= Tendulkar (54) Richards (50) >= Kohli (55) Sobers (58) > Dravid (53) WK Walcott (57 overall; 40 as WK) > Pant (44) Bowlers Marshall > Kapil Ambrose > Shami Holding = Bumrah Garner > Gupte/Chandra 12th man Gibbs (if spin is needed by WI) Edited February 2, 2020 by zen
zen Posted February 2, 2020 Author Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) Aus AT vs WI AT Batsmen Hayden = Greenidge Ponting > Haynes Smith > Headly Chappell =< Lara Border =< Richards S Waugh < Sobers WK Gilchrist = Walcott Bowlers Warne (premier test spinner) =< Marshall (premier test pace bowler) Starc/Cummins < Ambrose Lillee = Holding McGrath = Garner PS Pace Bowling View overall figures [change view] Primary team Australia or West Indies Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or West Indies Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1970 Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 and bowling average less than or equal to 24 Ordered by bowling average (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 9 of 9 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 MD Marshall (WI) 1978-1991 81 151 17584 7876 376 7/22 11/89 20.94 2.68 46.7 22 4 J Garner (WI) 1977-1987 58 111 13169 5433 259 6/56 9/108 20.97 2.47 50.8 7 0 CEL Ambrose (WI) 1988-2000 93 169 21254 8211 383 8/45 11/84 21.43 2.31 55.4 21 3 GD McGrath (AUS) 1993-2007 112 220 26657 11107 512 8/24 10/27 21.69 2.49 52.0 27 3 PJ Cummins (AUS) 2011-2020 26 49 6073 2838 123 6/27 9/99 23.07 2.80 49.3 4 0 CEH Croft (WI) 1977-1982 27 52 6165 2913 125 8/29 9/95 23.30 2.83 49.3 3 0 MA Holding (WI) 1975-1987 60 113 12680 5898 249 8/92 14/149 23.68 2.79 50.9 13 2 DK Lillee (AUS) 1971-1984 69 130 18287 8386 352 7/83 11/123 23.82 2.75 51.9 23 7 IR Bishop (WI) 1989-1998 41 72 8149 3724 156 6/40 8/57 23.87 2.74 52.2 6 0 Edited February 2, 2020 by zen
Straight Drive Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 15 hours ago, First class said: I know we're talking about tests captaincy but still I think Kapil Dev is the greatest captain India has produced. He was a natural leader, who always lead from front and was good in bringing out best from his team. Kapil and Sunny were not handled well because the selectors uses to swap captaincy between those two frequently. Both Sunny and Kapil were best in their skills sets and players could indeed look to them for motivation. Their captaincy record is very poor though with odd overseas test wins because the pace bowling attack was lacking apart from Kapil himself. The emergence of proper pace bowling culture has taken Indian cricket to new highs and Kohli is witnessing the fruitful results of such a culture. There was no NCA or MRF pace bowling academy. No foreign tearaway bowlers were available as coaches . Kapil was the first torchbearer for pace bowling culture in India, then taken ahead by Srinath for long time, then Zaheer Khan and after that it exponentially bloomed in this decade. Kapil's captaincy was not yeilding results but he has shaped Indian cricket. Sunny too has shaped Indian cricket as he was an iconic figure as well who was rile model for likes of Sachin, Dravid, Kohli and many more to come. Their contri utions are priceless. zen 1
Ajju Posted February 2, 2020 Posted February 2, 2020 I dont find anyone is better than DHONI in tests he introduced Test format in all forms be it t20 50 t10 or ipl he has good knowldge
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