Should Siraj play over Umesh in D/N test?

[Lone Wolf]

10 hours ago, New guy said:

100%. One of the biggest reason for our poor show in England was lack of new ball wickets. The kiwi bowlers easily outbowled our seamers because they were able to swing the ball instead of just relying on seam

Agree our bowling attack was not suitable to those NZ pitches.  Kiwi openers easily played our pacers & killed the game. 

We need to change our tactics next time in England too.   Hit the deck bowlers will not do us much good again. 

[gakgupta]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

For me, it comes down to nerves. Saini is more calm usually. Siraj can be nervous wreck and this is a huge doubt over Siraj.

hmmm...he may be nervous for a session or 2 ....not for the whole test match...

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, sandeep said:

For one thing, I wouldn't expect a test batsman to play a 6th stump delivery trying to glide it with an open face to gully.  Upwards of 90% of the time, that 1st ball will be left alone by batsmen.  Especially against the new ball. 

 

And Rana left a gateway of India between bat and pad for that 2nd one to go through. 

 

Both "batsmen" were under the T20 pressure to make every ball count.  

 

Just you asking the question "hows it different" - says it all really.  

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bl07L_Ihbdk/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again

 

Similar delivery that Rana got To Cook. Left handers do get out like that. No indian bowler currently real bowls this type of delivery.

[Straight Drive]

11 hours ago, sandeep said:

For one thing, I wouldn't expect a test batsman to play a 6th stump delivery trying to glide it with an open face to gully.  Upwards of 90% of the time, that 1st ball will be left alone by batsmen.  Especially against the new ball. 

 

And Rana left a gateway of India between bat and pad for that 2nd one to go through. 

 

Both "batsmen" were under the T20 pressure to make every ball count.  

 

Just you asking the question "hows it different" - says it all really.  

Our very own KL Rahul has been dismissed flirting well outside off stump. One such dismissal I remember was against Afghanistan where he got bowled. But then he has been out like that few more times. And KL Rahul isn't a template a test match batsman should be batting. So I get your point that quality test batsmen won't make blunders but still someone like Warner can flirt in that zone.

 

IPL should not be the benchmark for test match spot but I think Siraj has been deserving a spot in test since 2018 when he was running through opponent A team batting lineups. His bowling is more suited to longer format as his performances suggest.

[express bowling]

Bumrah and Shami are guaranteed picks if fit.

 

If Ishant gets fit, he will play too.

 

If Ishant is not available then the 3rd fast bowler should be the one who will be most suited for the whole series.

 

We should not use a horses for courses policy for new pacers. They will perform if they get the confidence that they will get all 4 games.

 

Based on this ... my choice is Saini as the 3rd pacer, for the whole series. His bowling style is the most suited for Australia, among Saini, Siraj and Umesh.

 

Moreover, Saini is potentially the most accurate among Saini, Siraj and Umesh ... and this is a must for the 3rd pacer. He should maintain pressure and provide support to Bumrah and Shami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by express bowling

[Straight Drive]

19 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Bumrah and Shami are guaranteed picks if fit.

 

If Ishant gets fit, he will play too.

 

If Ishant is not available then the 3rd fast bowler should be the one who will be most suited for the whole series.

 

We should not use a horses for courses policy for new pacers. They will perform if they get the confidence that they will get all 4 games.

 

Based on this ... my choice is Saini as the 3rd pacer, for the whole series. His bowling style is the most suited for Australia, among Saini, Siraj and Umesh.

 

Moreover, Saini is potentially the most accurate among Saini, Siraj and Umesh ... and this is a must for the 3rd pacer. He should maintain pressure and provide support to Bumrah and Shami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Saini is more accurate and his bowling is more suited to Australian wickets as you say then fair enough if he gets picked over Saini. 

 

Would like to know which forthcoming series  would you like to see Siraj play ahead of Saini. Where does he stands an advantage of being picked over Saini.

[express bowling]

14 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

If Saini is more accurate and his bowling is more suited to Australian wickets as you say then fair enough if he gets picked over Saini. 

 

Would like to know which forthcoming series  would you like to see Siraj play ahead of Saini. Where does he stands an advantage of being picked over Saini.

 

I would prefer Siraj in tests in England ... as he is better at swinging the ball.

[Straight Drive]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

I would prefer Siraj in tests in England ... as he is better at swinging the ball.

Okay, thanks.

[Lone Wolf]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Bumrah and Shami are guaranteed picks if fit.

 

If Ishant gets fit, he will play too.

 

If Ishant is not available then the 3rd fast bowler should be the one who will be most suited for the whole series.

 

We should not use a horses for courses policy for new pacers. They will perform if they get the confidence that they will get all 4 games.

 

Based on this ... my choice is Saini as the 3rd pacer, for the whole series. His bowling style is the most suited for Australia, among Saini, Siraj and Umesh.

 

Moreover, Saini is potentially the most accurate among Saini, Siraj and Umesh ... and this is a must for the 3rd pacer. He should maintain pressure and provide support to Bumrah and Shami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it'll be a shootout in the A games.  Saini v Siraj.  Aussies have named a strong A squad.  If either of them does well in those games especially the one with Pink ball should play I think.  Utilize the form here.  Both Saini & Siraj are better options than Umesh. 

[sandeep]

11 hours ago, express bowling said:

Moreover, Saini is potentially the most accurate among Saini, Siraj and Umesh ... and this is a must for the 3rd pacer. He should maintain pressure and provide support to Bumrah and Shami.

This is the one thing that makes me hesitate in supporting Siraj.  If Shami was injured in place of Ishant, I would not hesitate - it would be Siraj all the way.  But given that its Bumrah and Shami making up the rest of the pace attack, the accuracy and control aspect of the 3rd seamer role gets magnified in importance. Those aren't really Siraj's calling cards.  

 

 

[sandeep]

14 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

Bowling  line up for D/N test should be

Siraj

Shami 

Bumrah 

Ashwin (his variations may come handy with Pink ball under lights) 

 

Ultra aggressive approach would be to play Kuldeep as lone spinner as leggies are considered to be much tougher to play under lights with Pink ball

I don't think the Indian team can afford to bench Jadeja.  Given the batting he provides, given the control he provides, and the over-rate management he completely delivers on.  Add his fielding.  The guy is a difference maker for the bowling attack.  Unless he's not fit, I do not see Ash playing ahead of him as a front-line spinner.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Ash's bowling.  If he's fully fit and in rhythm.  The former consistently becomes a question mark with him.  That's the problem.  

[gakgupta]

7 hours ago, sandeep said:

I don't think the Indian team can afford to bench Jadeja.  Given the batting he provides, given the control he provides, and the over-rate management he completely delivers on.  Add his fielding.  The guy is a difference maker for the bowling attack.  Unless he's not fit, I do not see Ash playing ahead of him as a front-line spinner.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Ash's bowling.  If he's fully fit and in rhythm.  The former consistently becomes a question mark with him.  That's the problem.  

we need wicket takers...

i will go with Ash..

 

 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, gakgupta said:

we need wicket takers...

i will go with Ash..

 

 

 

Ashwin has not been a wicket taker in tests in Australia.

[Adamant]

Siraj over Saini and Umesh for the pink ball test.He swings the ball more than both Saini and Umesh,also he performed well in away tours for India A so a sure shot pick over Umesh.

I havent seen Saini moving the ball either way so picking him in a pink ball test doesn’t really help.

Also Jadeja over Ashwin anyday of the week.He is as good as a specialist batsman nowadays and controls the run rate even better than ashwin,also there's not much difference in their wicket taking abilities away from home.Stop expecting miracles from Ashwin,no offspinner does well in australia(except their own lyon)

[Serpico]

8 minutes ago, Adamant said:

home.Stop expecting miracles from Ashwin,no offspinner does well in australia

Ashwin was pretty good in Adelaide match last time. Plus Warner is his bunny and Australia have 5 lefties in batting line-up. I still want jaddu in d/n match because of his batting but Ashwin should play at MCG and Sydney

[sandeep]

10 hours ago, gakgupta said:

we need wicket takers...

i will go with Ash..

 

 

And what will you do if/when Ashwin pulls up lame with a groin injury on D2, and your rookie 3rd pacer is also leaking runs? Ask Vihari to bowl 40 overs?  

 

This is not an empty risk.  

[New guy]

On 11/25/2020 at 1:49 PM, express bowling said:

Bumrah and Shami are guaranteed picks if fit.

 

If Ishant gets fit, he will play too.

 

If Ishant is not available then the 3rd fast bowler should be the one who will be most suited for the whole series.

 

We should not use a horses for courses policy for new pacers. They will perform if they get the confidence that they will get all 4 games.

 

Based on this ... my choice is Saini as the 3rd pacer, for the whole series. His bowling style is the most suited for Australia, among Saini, Siraj and Umesh.

 

Moreover, Saini is potentially the most accurate among Saini, Siraj and Umesh ... and this is a must for the 3rd pacer. He should maintain pressure and provide support to Bumrah and Shami.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We made the same mistake of not picking a genuine swing bowler in NZ series and got our ass handed to us. There is a huge difference in day/night test vs regular test. You may as well suggest we should pick the same bowlers in LOIs and tests based on this logic

[express bowling]

19 minutes ago, New guy said:

We made the same mistake of not picking a genuine swing bowler in NZ series and got our ass handed to us. There is a huge difference in day/night test vs regular test. You may as well suggest we should pick the same bowlers in LOIs and tests based on this logic

 

 

The biggest problem we had in tests in NZ was our poor batting against swing bowling.

 

The biggest issue we had with our bowling was not the lack of a swing bowler. Ishant is a high quality swing bowler nowadays and he played the first test. 

 

The issue we had was that Bumrah was coming back from a long injury and was not at his best yet and Ishant could not play the 2nd test.

 

Tests and ODIs are different formats and players don't expect continuity of selection there.

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by express bowling

[New guy]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

The biggest problem we had in tests in NZ was our poor batting against swing bowling.

 

The biggest issue we had with our bowling was not the lack of a swing bowler. Ishant is a high quality swing bowler nowadays and he played the first test. 

 

The issue we had was that Bumrah was coming back from a long injury and was not at his best yet and Ishant could not play the 2nd test.

 

Tests and ODIs are different formats and players don't expect continuity of selection there.

 

 

We lost out when we couldnt take early wickets while Kiwi bowlers could. Ishant did not swing the ball anywhere close to Boult etc. We missed an out and out swing bowler who could take early wickets which our seamers could later capitalize on. That was the biggest difference

[Lone Wolf]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

The biggest problem we had in tests in NZ was our poor batting against swing bowling.

 

The biggest issue we had with our bowling was not the lack of a swing bowler. Ishant is a high quality swing bowler nowadays and he played the first test. 

 

The issue we had was that Bumrah was coming back from a long injury and was not at his best yet and Ishant could not play the 2nd test.

 

Tests and ODIs are different formats and players don't expect continuity of selection there.

 

 

Actually bowling was sort of exposed in 2nd test.  There is no shame in admitting that the surface wouldn't suit hit the deck bowling.  We were pretty much in the game in 2nd test.  Had we taken early wickets.  But we indeed missed a swing bowler.  Their openers easily played our opening bowlers.  Umesh was wayward.  Shami & Bumrah couldn't extract any reasonable movement.

Archer too struggled in NZ.  Those surfaces demand different skill set.