Pandya and Jadeja at No. 6 and 7 is a recipe for failure

[Ankit_sharma03]

18 minutes ago, maniac said:

However I don’t trust Pandya and Jadeja to take you over the line 9 out of 10 times against any decent score leave alone a score like 375. Hope you got it on the 2nd attempt of what I am saying.

I know what ur getting, its a foolish expectation 

Jadeja is a 10+ yr long career of such failures

Pandya 50 match in which thios situation wud have come not even 10 times, Most of the bilateral times our top 3 gets the job done only to fail in crunch games which is when rest 4-7 has no experience . 

 

Ur expecting way to much in a 50 match career of player who was fast tracked n plays the most high risk game, u expect him to do play high risk game successfully also play be like bevan.....its extremely difficult coz rarely u can come up with few names who cud like dhoni , hussey and even someone like dhgoi had to compromise on s/r for that. 

• hafeez n malik can do that against  a very side rest useless most days - do u want that 
• Same neesham, Santner whose utility comes with bowling or else wont have made as batsman in side which pandya can 
• butler stokes are 100+ matches in odi then add more in other formats, who also wud have had many failures ....they look better currently coz they are at their peak which pandya is yet to reach

 

 

Its easy to talk n take names but none of those name u took is a solution to us coz we have to choose what best we have. 

 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[zen]

2 minutes ago, maniac said:

However let’s say if the target is 275 the stakes change, you have to be calculative and play smart % cricket and switch gears back and forth on situation. That ability I don’t see it in Pandya and Jadeja is a TTF in that department anyways.

 

Buddy, this point has been addressed in multiple ways including through a) avgs at #6-7, b) there being no set formula to bat

 

2nd, y'day inning by SDP was the best of the day for India by a mile. A lesson in how to bat in such situations (including like you said not taking 10 singles to get to a 100 like many Indian statmongers)  .... Obviously, you have not seen the innings live to be making such random posts (I was actually up the whole night) 

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

Thats were I don’t trust these guys even against weaker teams. We have lost before against teams like SL and WI after a top order collapse and  barely managed to win against Afghanistan in such situations.

 

 

If your top 4 is being reduced to less than 100 even against weaker teams, the problem is with the top 4 (even BD players in the top may do better esp. against weaker sides) .... Your points are more about not trusting the top 4. And if that is the case, that is where the problem should be addressed .... Forget about 100/4, in key games recently, these guys have been 54/4 v Pak in CT2017 and 25/4 v NZ in WC19 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

@maniac

 

• If u had malik and HAfeez wud u have choosen them over pandya n jaddu
• do u knw where stokes n butler stood after 50 matches in their career? 
• taylor, stokes bat at 4-5 compare them to Rahul iyer not these 2
• do u trust hafeez, malik, santner to score quickly which is the basic requirement for no.7 batsman 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[Majestic]

7 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

Hardik is hitting quick bowlers effortlessly too.

I meant Iyer. Next WC is in 2023 in India and he will hit the spinners for fun in these conditions. So, I will give him the pass. 

 

Hardik obviously is gonna be the 'X-factor' for us.

[maniac]

2 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

@maniac

 

• If u had malik and HAfeez wud u have choosen them over pandya n jaddu

I would have definitely chosen Hafeez who bowls (in his chucking prime) over Jadeja in LOI  any day.

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 minutes ago, maniac said:

I would have definitely chosen Hafeez who bowls (in his chucking prime) over Jadeja in LOI  any day.

 

fair enough hafeez is a far better batsman  but why wud u even want to have someone who regularly gets called for chucking and is as doubtful to bowl as an injured bowler. Then add fielding diff of jadeja and an pakistani player.....there hafeez lost all his batting advantage in other 2 aspects .

 

Leaving aside hafeez,jadeja problem has no easy solution to specially with hardik's healing back or else 6th bowler cud have been looked in batsman who cud bowl 3-5 overs 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

On 11/27/2020 at 4:16 AM, express bowling said:

Pandya is the perfect No.6 IMHO.

 

Proved it again today.

 

No.7 is too low for him.

Been asking for Pandya to bat at #5 for months now.  Give him the chance to practice building an innings when the situation isn't demanding that he come in and start blasting, or come in with 5 down and match almost gone.  The guy can bat decent.  But because we don't have firepower in other batsmen, we are using a swiss army knife to do just one thing.  

 

Yes, he's probably best suited to be a #6, but by batting him for a year at #5 you find out if he can deliver in that spot.  Or at a minimum, give him the exposure and experience to further develop as a player, so when he settles back in at #6, he's got that behind him.  

 

But there are folks on this forum who still want to keep bashing the one rare half-allrounder we have.  Simply because of personal bias.

[maniac]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Been asking for Pandya to bat at #5 for months now.  Give him the chance to practice building an innings when the situation isn't demanding that he come in and start blasting, or come in with 5 down and match almost gone.  The guy can bat decent.  But because we don't have firepower in other batsmen, we are using a swiss army knife to do just one thing.  

 

Yes, he's probably best suited to be a #6, but by batting him for a year at #5 you find out if he can deliver in that spot.  Or at a minimum, give him the exposure and experience to further develop as a player, so when he settles back in at #6, he's got that behind him.  

 

But there are folks on this forum who still want to keep bashing the one rare half-allrounder we have.  Simply because of personal bias.

His USP was he can contribute with the ball. Sure I can buy the argument that he is a rare commodity, competent bat and can bowl 135-140k and gets extra leeway.
 

Now if he is not bowling why should he get a special treatment over all those guys who are toiling in domestics and A tours.

 

For example why should he be given preference as a pure no.5 bat over say someone like Pandey who has been topping batting charts in domestics and has done fairly decently in internationals including a 100 in Australia?

 

T20 absolutely I will pick Pandya as a batsman alone. IPL is a domestic contest and he is head and shoulders above everyone in the middle order and has earned it. Why should he get a free ride in ODis?

 

You can have your bias and I can have mine but that’s a very basic question.

[Ankit_sharma03]

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

 

Now if he is not bowling why should he get a special treatment over all those guys who are toiling in domestics and A tours.

 

For example why should he be given preference as a pure no.5 bat over say someone like Pandey who has been topping batting charts in domestics and has done fairly decently in internationals including a 100 in Australia?

 

 

honest n blunt answer other guys are not any better despite being any specialist infact pandya scores over them all round 

 

• Pandey whom ur talking of lost his place when he got few series in India u knw why coz he is like rahane against spin ( a lil better though ) pandya isnt weak against spin . Infact swing also better then manish
• iyer - already exposed against short stuff soon will be against quick wrist which SRH knws very well (pandya is damn good with pull n hook). If u think this problem wnt hamper....remebmer rayudu and he played quick wrist spinner like rashid better then many 
• Gill - better then pandya if he is in top but the further u go down u need muscle, lacks it pandya doesnt
• pant- definately ticks all boxes but currently looses on fitness big tijme, pandya is a supreme athlete
• Innings building which is called everyone strength well pandya has batted at 7 mostly which is where u cant build but explode but in lile chances when he got Ind-Aus home series, Sa test, 1st odi ....he showed he can build
• Apart from pant none has the power to bat in 5-7 

 

So basically when u come on international this domestic reputation dont matter. 

If he plays pace better then iyer and spin better then manish how the heck is those guys better just coz they smashed tons in domestic, so did guys like rayudu and many who came on international n found wanting.

 

 

 

Also pandya will bowl 4-5 overs on one leg but none of them wud 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

12 minutes ago, maniac said:

For example why should he be given preference as a pure no.5 bat over say someone like Pandey who has been topping batting charts in domestics and has done fairly decently in internationals including a 100 in Australia?

 

2 glaringly obvious reasons - If Hardik can deliver at #5 with an acceptable average - his SR is already confirmed to meet the requirements - then that opens up the #6/7 slot for a 2nd allrounder who can give you some big hits.  In a utopian Indian XI, I want 4 full-time 'bowlers' who are best in class in their discipline, one pace option in a fully fit Pandya, and 1 or 2 spin-bowling allrounders - maybe one of them can be a poor man's maxwell type - a streaky big hitting batsman who can give you a couple of overs a la Yusuf in his prime, or a Jadeja.  Playing Pandya in the top 5 buys the Indian team the ability to audition the likes of Samad - not a guy I think is worthy of a national cap - but just an example. 

 

The second reason is that Manish Pandey is a Virat-Kohli lite type of batsman - his game is built to succeed in the top 3.  Putting him at even #4 isn't the best fit. He isn't the guy who can come in and whack it for you.  And at #5, more often than not, he's going to be a bad fit, and not deliver what we want.

 

But none of this matters.  You will keep arguing and repeating the same points that have been explained and dismissed umpteen times.  By repeating thousand times, day doesn't become night. 

 

I am not going to discuss Pandya with you anymore because you are not engaging in a good faith discussion.  You are being intentionally misleading simply because you have a 'grudge'.  I am not here for silly personal "fights".  Maybe in your sad little world it counts as entertaining yourself by "trolling" someone. Enjoy it.  I don't want to waste my breath with the intentionally obtuse.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by sandeep

[Ankit_sharma03]

@maniac oh btw since u love calling his 90 a fluke, i just remeber that he played similar knock before on India A tour which is when dravid told TM that he is ready

 

This was a pink ball A side game , here u can see the technically sound batsman manish n nair but guess who scored and inbefore u say it was wild slogging....u cant play 116 balls by wild slogging.

So this specialist batsman crap doesnt work if those specialist have many weakness

 

INDIA A 1ST INNINGS

 

BATSMEN		R	B	4s	6s	SR
AA Herwadkar	c †Whiteman b Sayers	9	42	1	0	21.42
FY Fazal	c Maddinson b Richardson	0	9	0	0	0.00
KK Nair	run out (Cartwright)	1	14	0	0	7.14
MK Pandey	lbw b Bird	0	1	0	0	0.00
NV Ojha (c) †	lbw b Bird	19	52	2	0	36.53
SV Samson	b Cartwright	13	48	2	0	27.08
J Yadav	b Richardson	28	69	4	0	40.57
HH Pandya	c †Whiteman b Richardson	79	116	9	1	68.10
DS Kulkarni	c Webster b Richardson	11	38	2	0	28.94
SN Thakur	c †Whiteman b Bird	5	11	1	0	45.45
VR Aaron	not out	0	1	0	0	0.00
Extras	(b 1, lb 1, nb 1, w 1)	4

 

 

 

Also those 2 failed in 2nd innings 

 

AA Herwadkar	not out	82	188	6	3	43.61
FY Fazal	run out (Dean)	29	88	2	1	32.95
KK Nair	lbw b Holland	1	2	0	0	50.00
MK Pandey	c Webster b Holland	8	9	0	1	88.88
NV Ojha (c) †	c Bird b Holland	0	1	0	0	0.00
SV Samson	not out	34	76	3	0	44.73

[maniac]

5 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

honest n blunt answer other guys are not any better despite being any specialist infact pandya scores over them all round 

 

• Pandey whom ur talking of lost his place when he got few series in India u knw why coz he is like rahane against spin ( a lil better though ) pandya isnt weak against spin . Infact swing also better then manish
• iyer - already exposed against short stuff soon will be against quick wrist which SRH knws very well (pandya is damn good with pull n hook). If u think this problem wnt hamper....remebmer rayudu and he played quick wrist spinner like rashid better then many 
• Gill - better then pandya if he is in top but the further u go down u need muscle, lacks it pandya doesnt
• pant- definately ticks all boxes but currently looses on fitness big tijme, pandya is a supreme athlete
• Innings building which is called everyone strength well pandya has batted at 7 mostly which is where u cant build but explode but in lile chances when he got Ind-Aus home series, Sa test, 1st odi ....he showed he can build
• Apart from pant none has the power to bat in 5-7 

 

So basically when u come on international this domestic reputation dont matter. 

If he plays pace better then iyer and spin better then manish how the heck is those guys better just coz they smashed tons in domestic, so did guys like rayudu and many who came on international n found wanting.

 

 

 

Also pandya will bowl 4-5 overs on one leg but none of them wud 

Pandya struggled yesterday too. Also now he is actually considered a threat by teams which wasn’t the case a year ago, let’s see. I have a feeling Aussies are working him out slowly.

[Ankit_sharma03]

Just now, maniac said:

Pandya struggled yesterday too. Also now he is actually considered a threat by teams which wasn’t the case a year ago, let’s see. I have a feeling Aussies are working him out slowly.

pandya struggled coz he was going for six on very ball not against bouncers or seam swing. Someone like jadeja on other hand looked for timing and did better whereas he isnt expected to. This is something even pollard leanred over the years that u can hit the extra hard , they have enough power .....which is why pollard now looks to time it and still gets stixes

 

any batsman will struggle if he tries to hit hard coz he lll loose timing. Same thing happened to dhoni many times....thats what too much RRR do 

 

and yes aussies have a plan against him but that ok it ll will only make him look for a counter plan, he cant get away from this in international 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, maniac said:

Pandya struggled yesterday too. Also now he is actually considered a threat by teams which wasn’t the case a year ago, let’s see. I have a feeling Aussies are working him out slowly.

That is again a misleading statement. SDP would not have struggled if RRR was manageable. He “struggled” because he was required to hit almost every ball away and Aus did not bowl in slot. 
 

He can always run a ball like any batsman without fuss 

[maniac]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

pandya struggled coz he was going for six on very ball not against bouncers or seam swing. 

That’s definition or hacking and not exactly batting acumen. That’s exactly a lot of people’s judgement of Pandya

[zen]

12 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

Innings building which is called everyone strength well pandya has batted at 7 mostly which is where u cant build but explode but in lile chances when he got Ind-Aus home series, Sa test, 1st odi ....he showed he can build

There is no concept such as innings building. See Viv Richards. It is about playing balls on its merits and the situation 

[sandeep]

11 minutes ago, zen said:

That is again a misleading statement. SDP would not have struggled if RRR was manageable. He “struggled” because he was required to hit almost every ball away and Aus did not bowl in slot. 
 

He can always run a ball like any batsman without fuss 

Pandya "struggled" because he tried to hit and deliver for the team chasing 389.  In one game.  Right after he scored 90 in the previous one. 

 

The guy is being intellectually dishonest.  What even is the point.  After 2+ years of this nonsense, its time to ignore and laugh off his "criticism".  Its not criticism if its been repeatedly refuted.  Its just trolling.  His "acumen" gets multiple chairgasms when he watches the likes of Ben Duckett - pronouncing them instant future ATGs, while he will resort to repeated nonsense to discount and discredit Pandya. Simply because he was verbally pantsed 3 years ago on the subject.  

Edited November 30, 2020 by sandeep

[zen]

Just now, sandeep said:

Pandya "struggled" because he tried to hit and deliver for the team chasing 389.  In one game.  Right after he scored 90 in the previous one. 

 

The guy is being intellectually dishonest.  What even is the point.  After 2+ years of this nonsense, its time to ignore and laugh off his "criticism".  Its not criticism if its been repeatedly refuted.  Its just trolling. 

I did not expect such things from @maniac

[Ankit_sharma03]

13 minutes ago, maniac said:

That’s definition or hacking and not exactly batting acumen. That’s exactly a lot of people’s judgement of Pandya

 

not finding timing is not hacking, this has happened to every top batsman in world . Some days ur try to hard, same with bowlers some day they try extra n spray all over which starc is doing. 

 

hacking is another misused term- if there is one hack i have seen in india its mandeep singh or even dube .

 

Pandya range is very good and it ll become better. Im sure some wud have even called dhoni that when he wud have had failure, remeber till few yrs everyone is new so ppl wait one days of failure to term them as overrated . 

 

Now pant is also called hack whereas its pure talent n skill what he does . This oldschool thought process was why england team cudnt value KP 

 

in 2003 Wc , Sachin went for his shot from over one without checking pace of wkt but he had no choice, now that is not hacking 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Ankit_sharma03

[sandeep]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

I did not expect such things from @maniac

oh shut up you are biased because you are ghhujharati and so is Pandya. "lol lol lol".  haha.  

 

oh "don't be offended" if i repeatedly accuse you of ethnic bigotry, without basis.  while my 2 all-time favorite players are Telegu, just like me.   Its classic Trumpy projection.