Md Siraj: From Ashes to Phoenix

[Rightarmfast]

Its very interesting to hear the views of @MCcricket & @putrevus! See, we can't compare Siraj to Munaf because Munaf had issues with his work ethics. He was just lazy. I have myself been a very vociferous advocate of pace, however I am happy to see Siraj bowling in mid to late 130's as long as he is consistent with quality. 

 

Kapil, Irfan Pathan, Pollock, Mcgrath etc were similar pace to Siraj, yet they picked wickets. Would you not agree? All that I am saying is, if he can increase his pace, nothing like it. But what I dont want him to do is sacrifice quality for pace. I believe he is a thinking bowler and he will pick wickets in Asia.

[Rightarmfast]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Siraj has bowled 130 k to 141 k most of the time in Australia. Average speed of around 135 k.

 

A speed of 135 k to 145 k ... average speed of 138 k +, would be acceptable.

 

I would say, hovering around 135ish is ok speed for the quality he brings in.  or perhaps around 137ish..

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I would say, hovering around 135ish is ok speed for the quality he brings in.  or perhaps around 137ish..

 

 

Ok on fast tracks or when the ball is swinging 

 

Did not look that good on the slower Sidney pitch. 

 

I want Siraj to be an all condition pacer by bowling 135 k to 145 k.

Edited February 3, 2021 by express bowling

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

 

 

Kapil, Irfan Pathan, Pollock, Mcgrath etc were similar pace to Siraj, yet they picked wickets. Would you not agree? All that I am saying is, if he can increase his pace, nothing like it. But what I dont want him to do is sacrifice quality for pace. I believe he is a thinking bowler and he will pick wickets in Asia.

 

 

Kapil and Irfan were not low average pacers.

 

And McGrath and Pollock both were very tall and got steep bounce. Moreover, both benefited by playing more than 60% of their cricket on fast and bouncy tracks ... which made up for their lack of extra pace.

[RajBan]

1 hour ago, gakgupta said:

I give a **** about pace...

 

Yes...skill with pace is useful...but just pace is useless

 

Look at starc...he was consistently hitting 145+ but was far less effective then siraj..

 

Siraj is a very intelligent bowler who is mighty skillful...

 

"Reverse swing", "conventional swing".."setting up the batsmen"..."using the crease well"...."seam"...he has every damn skill a bowler should have....

 

Look at Broad...he is more effective than ...lets say wood... but who bowls around 135ish

 

If he can improve the pace without loosing his line and length...i am fine with it...but not at the cost of his body (pathan and bhuvi lost their career in quest for the pace) 

 

 

Exactly. Look at Varun Aaron , just pace is not good enough if you are not skilled enough, accurate enough and consistent enough. 

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, RajBan said:

Exactly. Look at Varun Aaron , just pace is not good enough if you are not skilled enough, accurate enough and consistent enough. 

 

 

Who has said that he is looking for a low skill and high pace bowler ?

[Rightarmfast]

46 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Kapil and Irfan were not low average pacers.

 

And McGrath and Pollock both were very tall and got steep bounce. Moreover, both benefited by playing more than 60% of their cricket on fast and bouncy tracks ... which made up for their lack of extra pace.

if I am not wrong, Kapil was a low average bowler till 82/83, til the time he had knee injury. Post that, his average dipped.  Btw, examples of bowlers are plenty, even Wasim was mostly a 135-142ish bowler. 

I am not saying he should not increase speed. But, I strongly feel he has enough skills to prosper at a pace of 135-140ish. His pace will not hamper his success rate, thats for sure. 

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, gakgupta said:

 

 

Look at starc...he was consistently hitting 145+ but was far less effective then siraj..

 

 

Starc has a bowling average of 27.57 in tests  ... a bowling average which not a single Indian pacer with 100+ test wickets, has been able better in our HISTORY  ( Bumrah will do it shortly and Shami is doing similarly well ).

 

And he averages 26.98 away from home and 27.9 in Asia. So, he isn't a HTB either.

 

We should think twice before criticizing such bowlers based on one match.

 

 

1 hour ago, gakgupta said:

 

 

Look at Broad...he is more effective than ...lets say wood... but who bowls around 135ish

 

 

Broad is a swing bowler who has benefited from playing 57% of his cricket in swing friendly England.

 

While his overall bowling average is impressive due to 57% matches in England ... He averages 36.3 in Asia  ( which is poor )  and averages 32.3 away from home.

 

What will we do with pacers who average 36+ in Asia !!

 

Wood is not skilful enough either.

 

I don't want either of the 2 pacers as Indian bowlers.

[express bowling]

2 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

if I am not wrong, Kapil was a low average bowler till 82/83, til the time he had knee injury. Post that, his average dipped. 

 

My impression is that ... in the era of no helmets / poor helmets / poor protective gears  ... no practice against either bowling machines or slingers using artificial arms bowling at 150 k ... batsmen were hurried by much lesser pace.
 

 

 

Quote

Btw, examples of bowlers are plenty, even Wasim was mostly a 135-142ish bowler. 

 

Wasim wasn't really clocked with any regularity in his first 13 years. So, we don't know his exact speeds. 

 

The batsmen who played him always talk about his high pace.

 

 

Quote

I am not saying he should not increase speed. But, I strongly feel he has enough skills to prosper at a pace of 135-140ish. His pace will not hamper his success rate, thats for sure. 

 

 

But he wasn't bowling 135 k to 140 k only.

 

Lots of spells were 129 k to 137 k too.

 

Rafbhai  .... My worry is that I have never seen an Asian medium fast bowler remain a sub-26 average pacer after say 30+ tests. They may do well in the first 2 or 3 years due to the novelty factor. But become average after that. Seen quite a few skilful Asian seamers not high in terms of pace, lose their way.

 

And this is natural as we play 60% + of our test cricket on slower pitches.

Edited February 3, 2021 by express bowling

[Soldier]

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Ok on fast tracks or when the ball is swinging 

 

Did not look that good on the slower Sidney pitch. 

 

I want Siraj to be an all condition pacer by bowling 135 k to 145 k.

Imo all bowlers who are supposed to be fast should always bowl around 135-145. 

 

If you can't then become a first change bowler or stick to domestics. Not good enough imo. 

[express bowling]

4 minutes ago, Soldier said:

Imo all bowlers who are supposed to be fast should always bowl around 135-145. 

 

If you can't then become a first change bowler or stick to domestics. Not good enough imo. 

 

 

Skillwise also ... fast bowlers have access to some additional skill sets.

 

....  The quick indipping yorker

....  The quick bouncer ( bowling good quality bouncer barrages if wickets are not falling )

....  The stump directed skiddy quick ball.

.... The back of a length snorter that climbs sharply around the off stump.

 

 

Siraj can bowl all these deliveries when he is bowling 135 k to 145 k.

 

I wouldn't want him to miss out on these potent weapons.

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Skillwise also ... fast bowlers have access to some additional skill sets.

 

....  The quick indipping yorker

....  The quick bouncer ( bowling good quality bouncer barrages if wickets are not falling )

....  The stump directed skiddy quick ball.

.... The back of a length snorter that climbs sharply around the off stump.

 

 

Siraj can bowl all these deliveries when he is bowling 135 k to 145 k.

 

I wouldn't want him to miss out on these potent weapons.

Shami used to bowl around at that similar pace in 2014 SA & NZ tour after that he started bowling much quicker than he used to bowl.  So don't count out that Siraj may actually improve from here on & become an out n out 140k bowler in coming months.  He will succeed in England & SA with the current pace on helpful pitches. 

[gakgupta]

 
Broad is a swing bowler who has benefited from playing 57% of his cricket in swing friendly England.
 
While his overall bowling average is impressive due to 57% matches in England ... He averages 36.3 in Asia  ( which is poor )  and averages 32.3 away from home.
 
What will we do with pacers who average 36+ in Asia !!
 
Wood is not skilful enough either.
 
I don't want either of the 2 pacers as Indian bowlers.

I was criticizing starc not based on one match but based on the entire series....

My intention was not to criticize him but prove a point that pace is not everything....

In the the just concluded series...take anyone's opinion.... even a diehard fan of OZ will say that siraj bowled better than starc...



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[express bowling]

1 minute ago, Lone Wolf said:

Shami used to bowl around at that similar pace in 2014 SA & NZ tour after that he started bowling much quicker than he used to bowl.  So don't count out that Siraj may actually improve from here on & become an out n out 140k bowler in coming months.  He will succeed in England & SA with the current pace on helpful pitches. 

 

 

Why would I rule it out when I have seen Siraj bowl at 135 k to 145 k  !!

 

Indian cricketers are not at peak fitness after the Covid induced break.

 

Siraj may start bowling at full pace in 3 months.

 

My point is .... Siraj should not compromise on his pace. He does not need to as I have seen him bowl in good areas in 4 day matches for our A team while bowling much quicker than he is doing now.

 

 

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

I was criticizing starc not based on one match but based on the entire series....

My intention was not to criticize him but prove a point that pace is not everything....

 

 

 

Who has said that pace is everything  ??

 

But pace gives a fast bowler access to some additional weapons that I have stated in an earlier post. 

 

That does not mean every bowler with pace is a good bowler.

 

But most great pacers have had either pace or bounce or both. Plus they have had loads of skills.

 

 

2 minutes ago, gakgupta said:

In the the just concluded series...take anyone's opinion.... even a diehard fan of OZ will say that siraj bowled better than starc...
 

 

 

Starc bowled well in the first 2 tests. 

 

Siraj bowled well in the 2nd and 4th test. 

 

Starc did not bowl well in the last 2 tests ... but it was not because he was trying to go for pace at the cost of everything else. He was bowling at the same pace that he usually does when he is bowling well.

[Suhaan]

6 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Who has said that he is looking for a low skill and high pace bowler ?

Don't bother ,if someone says he just needs to up his pace to the level where he used to operate just a year or two before these intellects infer we want him to be a loose cannon who is always hunting high speed guns reading,they never think no one is that idiot to talk about only pace

Siraj will need some sort of pace in SC conditions,just a yard or two which he used to do effortlessly not saying he has to operate at Akhtarisque pace

[RajBan]

20 hours ago, express bowling said:

 

 

Who has said that he is looking for a low skill and high pace bowler ?

Well that was a figure of speech Varun Aaron was useless instead of having pace because he lacked everything else.

 

 

[RajBan]

19 hours ago, MultiB48 said:

aaron got wasted as we dont know how to develop our quicks .india back in the 70s,80s  didnt know how to use attacking batsmen ,people like virat, pant, sehwag etc would have never made it back then.many talented attacking batsmen were wasted in favor of more safer options back in the day.

Don't agree. We can't put the blame entirely on the system when Aaron failed to adopt. Umesh was a contemporary of Aaron and he has improved a lot since he made debut inspite of being spray gun himself. For get the national team, Aaron failed to take opportunities in IPl as well where you have a very professional staff to help players out. We can't blame the system always.

 

On the argument of batsman, this is absolutely not true that India did not have attacking batsmen in 70s and 80s. Engineer, Srikanth, Kapil were ahead of their time in terms of playing style and we're integral part of the team. Azhar was extremely attacking when in mood specially in his initial years. You can't always compare batsman of this era with 4 decades back unless you are taking Vib as a benchmark who used to smash everybody around in difficult picthes.

Edited February 4, 2021 by RajBan

[Vilander]

22 hours ago, gakgupta said:

I give a **** about pace...

 

Yes...skill with pace is useful...but just pace is useless

 

Look at starc...he was consistently hitting 145+ but was far less effective then siraj..

 

Siraj is a very intelligent bowler who is mighty skillful...

 

"Reverse swing", "conventional swing".."setting up the batsmen"..."using the crease well"...."seam"...he has every damn skill a bowler should have....

 

Look at Broad...he is more effective than ...lets say wood... but who bowls around 135ish

 

If he can improve the pace without loosing his line and length...i am fine with it...but not at the cost of his body (pathan and bhuvi lost their career in quest for the pace) 

 

 

 

Seen this same post from many people the point is all that with high pace makes a bowler great. And some people want that.

[express bowling]

46 minutes ago, RajBan said:

Well that was a figure of speech Varun Aaron was useless instead of having pace because he lacked everything else.

 

 

 

If we want a great fast bowling attack ... we should always be on the lookout for fast bowlers who combine pace and bounce with skills ... like Bumrah and Shami.

 

We should not be happy with either medium pacers or spray-gun quick bowlers.

 

Very tall pacers who get steep bounce, are ok even at 135 k because they can hurry batters with sudden bounce.