Wait, what is wrong with Ashwin's record in England ??? Its pretty decent

[rkt.india]

37 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

NZ has best batting line up in world.

But it was a neutral venue. I will take that seriously if he bowls that good to NZ in NZ.

[rkt.india]

37 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 

And there is no evidence to support that Indian pacers are better match winners in such conditions.

 

As a member, it is evident that Ashwin is performing better than at least 2 pacers overseas in last few years.

Yes you can say they haven't done well and replace them and find better ones because pacers are going to win you games, not spinners. Pacers who can take 5-fers overseas. 2-3 wickets per game isn't going to be enough whether pacer or spinner.

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Again go back to performances of pacers. There has been just 2 performance better than Ashwin's WTC performance.

 

Adelaide test and WTC final -- both matches he outbowled Bumrah and Shami.

That doesn't matter. He outbowled Bumrah and Shami. Was that match winning bowling? Bowlers can have bad days but on a good day, a bowler should be able to win you games. Bumrah has done that. He can get fifers in Aus, SA, England. Ashwin can't. We can't be settled with mediocrity. Regarding Shami, always maintained he isn't that good in English conditions though has improved a bit this time. 

[rkt.india]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

 

Shami has 36  wickets in 21 innings at avg of 39 with 0 5-fers.

 

Ashwin has 18 wickets in 11 innings. Give him more innings, he will outbowl both Shami and Ishant.

 

None of Shami/Ishant look like match winners in these conditions.

 

Bumrah did well in 1 match and consistently struggles to pick wickets with new ball.

 

Always maintained Shami isn't suited for English conditions. You are only comparing mediocre performers. Why not compare Ashwin to Anderson who is the benchmark in these conditions. A pacer still at least has more chances than a spinner like Ishant in second test and Shami in WTC because conditions are favorable to them. You need 5/50 kind of bowlers, not 5/120 in these conditions. Yes, Bumrah can have bad days too that's normal but on his day he can run through a side. If a bowler always was taking 5-fer, he would be averaging 10-15. There is a reason we play 4-5 bowlers. If one has a bad day, others can make up. You need at least 2/4 low average match winning bowlers according to conditions. Right now, we have only one in Bumrah averaging 20 in this series while England have two in Robinson and Anderson averaging 19. That's why if Bumrah doesn't pick wickets, we don't have anyone else reliable. For England if Anderson didn't do it, Robinson did. Both Bowled tight and also picked wickets. So problem is with our pacers who are not consistent enough, leaked runs, not because we didn't play Ashwin, and the biggest problem is the batsmen who scored 78/10 and 63/8. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by rkt.india

[ShoonyaSifar]

Amusing how this support Ashwin thread has turned into a bash Indian pacers thread! 

 

Using similar arguments, it can be shown that Jadeja has been a better bowler in SENA than Ashwin, plus he even has a 5-er! Now how ridiculous does that sound!

[Adamant]

Ashwin has been OK in England.

Those numbers are somewhat misleading. 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Adamant said:

Ashwin has been OK in England.

Those numbers are somewhat misleading. 

14 wickets in 6 matches against England. 2.2 wickets per match. What's so misleading about it?

[Lord]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

Always maintained Shami isn't suited for English conditions. You are only comparing mediocre performers. Why not compare Ashwin to Anderson who is the benchmark in these conditions. A pacer still at least has more chances than a spinner like Ishant in second test and Shami in WTC because conditions are favorable to them. You need 5/50 kind of bowlers, not 5/120 in these conditions. Yes, Bumrah can have bad days too that's normal but on his day he can run through a side. If a bowler always was taking 5-fer, he would be averaging 10-15. There is a reason we play 4-5 bowlers. If one has a bad day, others can make up. You need at least 2/4 low average match winning bowlers according to conditions. Right now, we have only one in Bumrah averaging 20 in this series while England have two in Robinson and Anderson averaging 19. That's why if Bumrah doesn't pick wickets, we don't have anyone else reliable. For England if Anderson didn't do it, Robinson did. Both Bowled tight and also picked wickets. So problem is with our pacers who are not consistent enough, leaked runs, not because we didn't play Ashwin, and the biggest problem is the batsmen who scored 78/10 and 63/8. 

 

Anderson is first bowler they pick,like Bumrah for us.Ashwin's competition is with 4th pacer

 

If pacers are not consistently enough and leak runs,why should they play?They'll lose more matches than winning.Atleast Ashwin won't leak runs even on his bad day

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Anderson is first bowler they pick,like Bumrah for us.Ashwin's competition is with 4th pacer

 

If pacers are not consistently enough and leak runs,why should they play?They'll lose more matches than winning.Atleast Ashwin won't leak runs even on his bad day

Because, yes pacers are not consistent, they can still produce a match winning spell out of no where like Ishant did in first test. You need wickets. Ashwin has an SR of 75 against England in England. Shami had poor SR too on previous two tours that's why I was really against him playing this series. He has done decently this series but again not match winning stuff like Bumrah and Siraj. Siraj did well in one test didn't show up in two. The most important thing is to understand who is going to win you a game in these conditions. Yes, some of the pacers may leak runs but in the end they are ones going to win us games as well. Bhuvi in place of Ishant or Shami would have done wonders to this attack. We just need to hope that these guys can do their job in last two tests but then for that you need runs from the batsmen. Not every times bowlers are going to save their asrses with the bat too.

[Ankit_sharma03]

6 hours ago, rkt.india said:

You included NZ match too. They were not home team. This is against England, 14 wickets in 6 tests at 32.

same Nz who beat england in their own backyard before WTC

 

Their recent gun conway has been playing county so he knws these conditions pretty well. If any conditions that suit NZ its england.  NZ has better batting then current england even in england. 

If that is the logic our seamers shud be thrown out 1st

 

His record in england is a problem or his record in england vs england is a problem ?? Coz even 32 is fine for a spinner in SENA as u can see with other spinners like lyon, kumble, bhajji record in england all aint murali warne but the next tier. Also 2 test he played with injury affecting his record. 

If its england batsman in england well this isnt even the same quality batting anymore , guys like burn(whom ashwin has dismissed in county as well), Pope, sibley, crawley struggles against spin even in county. Now remains root, against him we have thrown 4 seamer attack and he is avg 126 in series so u need to throw something different....either is Akthar lee level pace which we dnt have or try spin. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[Lord]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

Because, yes pacers are not consistent, they can still produce a match winning spell out of no where like Ishant did in first test. You need wickets. Ashwin has an SR of 75 against England in England. Shami had poor SR too on previous two tours that's why I was really against him playing this series. He has done decently this series but again not match winning stuff like Bumrah and Siraj. Siraj did well in one test didn't show up in two. The most important thing is to understand who is going to win you a game in these conditions. Yes, some of the pacers may leak runs but in the end they are ones going to win us games as well. Bhuvi in place of Ishant or Shami would have done wonders to this attack. We just need to hope that these guys can do their job in last two tests but then for that you need runs from the batsmen. Not every times bowlers are going to save their asrses with the bat too.

 

kaunsa match winning spell by Ishant? He picked 3 in first innings with second new ball wasting first one. Was too late.And in 2nd innings Eng were dead batting and it was overcast. Once sun came out only Bumrah and Siraj were effective with old ball.

 

Even Ashwin picked 4 in WTC in overcast conditions.Even then batting was problem.

 

Bhuvi isnt there but Thakur is.We can use him.

[Adamant]

36 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

14 wickets in 6 matches against England. 2.2 wickets per match. What's so misleading about it?

I am nowhere saying that he has been bad at all, all I am saying is that he has been average. 

Let me tell what's misleading about it:

 

1.He has never taken wickets in a bunch which is the first and foremost responsibility of a spinner. 

 

2.He never was able to capitalise  on good spinning conditions, he produced the same figures on seaming and spinning pitches 

 

He didn't bowl as well as his stats suggest, quite a few of his wickets were against the run of play instead of capitalising on the pressure he built. 

 

 

[Real McCoy]

ashwin >>> pissant. end thread. if they wanted a seamer, thakur has been more threatening and provides runs down the order. horrible team selection from rat

[Samcric]

OP - if you are wondering why team management is not playing Ashwin when he has a decent record in England, it is because of our Captain blaming the 3+2 combination for our loss in WTC instead of blaming the batting of middle order (including himself).

 

If you are wondering why some of the posters doubt if Ashwin can win matches, personally for me, 2018 Edgebaston test has a lot of bad memories where Moeen Ali was miles ahead of him on a deteriorating wicket. Mo was able consistently land the ball at pace on the rough. Ashwin just couldn't. May be he was injured. I think he is just a different bowler to Mo and he has his own strengths. He bowls well in all conditions now and performed well on Aus and WTC final. 

 

To me, Ashwin is still a decent bowler but not a match-winner in England (yet). I also suspect that in good batting conditions, England manage to play him better than most teams. Remember the first test in Chennai - not just Root, Sibley played him well. When you start sweeping the offspinner from outside the off, you take away one of his stock balls.He can definitely prove me wrong and pick up a fifer. But I hope you can see where the doubt emanates from.

 

Having said all of this, for Oval test, I would back Ashwin to bat at 8, Shardul at 9 followed by Bumrah/Siraj. Ishant has been less than ordinary and Shami just lacks the skill of consistently bowling in an area (which you need to on 300-par pitches). So while I agree with RKT that ideally we should have a Woakes-type seamer who can potentially bat at 8 and be a match-winner in English conditions, we don't have anyone like that in our squad currently and Ashwin can provide us with 4-5 wickets in the match with Eco of 2.5 and perhaps 40-50 runs with the bat across two innings. that is not match-winning but I don't see a 4th seamer either who can do that. Thakur at 9 provides you with the depth you will need if Pujara, Kohli, Rahane are to play and TM have to 'back Pant's natural game'. 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

2 minutes ago, Samcric said:

If you are wondering why some of the posters doubt if Ashwin can win matches, personally for me, 2018 Edgebaston test has a lot of bad memories where Moeen Ali was miles ahead of him on a deteriorating wicket. Mo was able consistently land the ball at pace on the rough. Ashwin just couldn't. May be he was injured. I think he is just a different bowler to Mo and he has his own strengths. He bowls well in all conditions now and performed well on Aus and WTC final. 

 

Ashwin was injured in that test where all the anger against him began, he got injured in previous game n then played next with injury

 

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, Samcric said:

OP - if you are wondering why team management is not playing Ashwin when he has a decent record in England, it is because of our Captain blaming the 3+2 combination for our loss in WTC instead of blaming the batting of middle order (including himself).

 

If you are wondering why some of the posters doubt if Ashwin can win matches, personally for me, 2018 Edgebaston test has a lot of bad memories where Moeen Ali was miles ahead of him on a deteriorating wicket. Mo was able consistently land the ball at pace on the rough. Ashwin just couldn't. May be he was injured. I think he is just a different bowler to Mo and he has his own strengths. He bowls well in all conditions now and performed well on Aus and WTC final. 

 

To me, Ashwin is still a decent bowler but not a match-winner in England (yet). I also suspect that in good batting conditions, England manage to play him better than most teams. Remember the first test in Chennai - not just Root, Sibley played him well. When you start sweeping the offspinner from outside the off, you take away one of his stock balls.He can definitely prove me wrong and pick up a fifer. But I hope you can see where the doubt emanates from.

 

Having said all of this, for Oval test, I would back Ashwin to bat at 8, Shardul at 9 followed by Bumrah/Siraj. Ishant has been less than ordinary and Shami just lacks the skill of consistently bowling in an area (which you need to on 300-par pitches). So while I agree with RKT that ideally we should have a Woakes-type seamer who can potentially bat at 8 and be a match-winner in English conditions, we don't have anyone like that in our squad currently and Ashwin can provide us with 4-5 wickets in the match with Eco of 2.5 and perhaps 40-50 runs with the bat across two innings. that is not match-winning but I don't see a 4th seamer either who can do that. Thakur at 9 provides you with the depth you will need if Pujara, Kohli, Rahane are to play and TM have to 'back Pant's natural game'. 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you mean Southampton?Coz in Edgbaston,Ashwin took 7 wickets in the match and set up the win only for batsmen to fail chasing 194.Moeen didnt play.

 

He aggravated injury in Southampton

 

 

 

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

8 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Adelaide test and WTC final -- both matches he outbowled Bumrah and Shami.

In Aus he played 3 test and took 

Smith - 3 times out of 6 (remaining 1 was bumrah, 1 was runout and 1 was not out)

Labu- 2 times 

 

thats above all, if those 2 wud have gotten in runs early in series it cud have been a different story. 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Ankit_sharma03

[rkt.india]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

kaunsa match winning spell by Ishant? He picked 3 in first innings with second new ball wasting first one. Was too late.And in 2nd innings Eng were dead batting and it was overcast. Once sun came out only Bumrah and Siraj were effective with old ball.

 

Even Ashwin picked 4 in WTC in overcast conditions.Even then batting was problem.

 

Bhuvi isnt there but Thakur is.We can use him.

Ishant picked 5 top order wickets in test 2. Took wickets when they were running away with the game in first innings. He isn't a new ball bowler, so, problem there with captaincy. Kohli kept giving him new ball, that's stupid captaincy. We have no typical new ball bowler in this team. Shardul is okay but he is no Bhuvi.

[Samcric]

13 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Do you mean Southampton?Coz in Edgbaston,Ashwin took 7 wickets in the match and set up the win only for batsmen to fail chasing 194.Moeen didnt play.

 

He aggravated injury in Southampton

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, my bad, I was referring to 4th test at Southampton.

 

 

[Samcric]

22 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

 

Ashwin was injured in that test where all the anger against him began, he got injured in previous game n then played next with injury

 

 

You expect international players to be honest about their injury and not play when they can't give their 100%. So that's on Ashwin as well.