India missing the Jadeja link in this series

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

You got to perform in Asia. That's assumed imo. Expected. Apart from that, the player needs to perform in atleast 2 of sena. Pant does in australia. I feel he can do ok in England. S Africa and new zeland are huge question marks. You need solid defence in these 2 places along with strokeplay. He has strokes but his inept at choosing the right balls to attack. 

 

If he can average 30 in s.africa and kiwi land that's good enough. In australia he can average 40 plus. In Asia obviously he will excel with 45 plus. 

 

Of all the places NZ is an easier place to score. There are times where pitch becomes a belter.  WIth short boundaries, fast out fields batting on day 3/4/5 is generally an easy affair. Can't believe none of them bat well there. Getting out to Boult is one thing. But getting owned by Jamieson is another thing.

[Jay]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Of all the places NZ is an easier place to score. There are times where pitch becomes a belter.  WIth short boundaries, fast out fields batting on day 3/4/5 is generally an easy affair. Can't believe none of them bat well there. Getting out to Boult is one thing. But getting owned by Jamieson is another thing.

Bangla boys hit jammieson trundler everywhere. He got some cheap wickets later due to them attacking him. 

 

I do rate Jamieson but he is only a beast in seaming conditions. Contrary to what one believes, his strength is movement off seam. He doesn't have that great of a bouncer. 

 

Bangla boys were standing like 2 feet down the crease for jammu hahahha. 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

And you're bringing a test back from 2011? Ok then how about - 

 

Most wickets

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
GP Swann (ENG)	4	7	185.5	44	495	20	5/144	8/113	24.75	2.66	55.7	1	0
PP Ojha (INDIA)	4	8	254.2	69	617	20	5/45	9/165	30.85	2.42	76.3	2	0
MS Panesar (ENG)	3	5	183.0	44	456	17	6/81	11/210	26.82	2.49	64.5	2	1
R Ashwin (INDIA)	4	8	236.5	48	737	14	3/80	5/214	52.64	3.11	101.5	0	0
JM Anderson (ENG)	4	7	126.4	27	363	12	4/81	6/127	30.25	2.86	63.3	0	0
UT Yadav (INDIA)	1	2	30.0	4	84	4	3/70	4/84	21.00	2.80	45.0	0	0

 

We'll just pretend this series never happened 

 

Your point is?. lol Even in his 2nd test he did what a specialist batsman can do. I still consider Ashwin as a lower order batsman who takes responsibility with bat. NEver considered him as a specialist bat with bat. He is a no.8.  But you rate Jaddu much higher than Ashwin despite there is enough evidence his partnerships came up only when India was in good position. He is no Daniel Vettori. Dan vettori made 137 batting at no.9 vs Pakistan. He never batted above 8. Made 5 centuries. Made 140 batting at 8 at colombo. Also made 118 against us batting at 8. All under pressure. Jaddu has not done any of that. He just makes a odd 50 here and there in his best form. We already treat him like he is next Kapil dev. He has some utility value. But suggesting his absence was the difference is over the top.

[R!TTER]

13 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Your point is?

Jadeja is consistently the better batter - whether home or away, you can look at the innings & avg he trumps Ashwin in most places! Factoid 2 - Ashwin's bowling has been better, especially away from home, in last 5 years or so but his batting has also seen a sharp drop. He's now a regular bowler, with the occasional good scores once or twice in a series at best.

 

Bringing stats from 10-12 years back is useless because the world has changed so much from back then! If we're playing that game Jadeja still avg better than Ashwin in SA. If it's a flat pitch I'd pick both Jadeja & Ashwin because they're genuinely among the 5 top bowlers we have. If not for a flat pitch then generally Jadeja would be my pick - because we need his runs.

 

Now granted our MO batting is a big issue right now but we can't pretend to not have the worst tail going around - the tail is also a *ing problem & that's why we need extra cushion of Jadeja's runs.

Edited January 12, 2022 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Jadeja is consistently the better batter - whether home or away, you can look at the innings & avg he trumps Ashwin in most places! Factoid 2 - Ashwin's bowling has been better, especially away from home, in last 5 years or so but his batting has also seen a sharp drop. He's now a regular bowler, with the occasional good scores once or twice in a series at best.

 

Bringing stats from 10-12 years back is useless because the world has changed so much from back then! If we're playing that game Jadeja still avg better than Ashwin in SA. If it's a flat pitch I'd pick both Jadeja & Ashwin because they're genuinely among the 5 bowlers we have. If not for a flat pitch then generally Jadeja would be my pick - because we need his runs.

 

Yea if we lose by 6 wickets his 20 or 30 extra runs are not going to make any difference. Besides Ashwin batted well atleast in one innings in the last Test. He looked good in the 2nd innings too before a soft dismissal. He identified it was no use defending there. Pretty much everyone followed suit in the next innings. Yes probably he would have been in the XI. We didn't have Jaddu at the Gabba we won with Sundar. Didn't have Jaddu in the first Test in SA. We won. We did have Jaddu in all 4 tests in England we aer leading 2-1. If we lose the 5th test it will be 2-2.  Seamers & batsmen make the biggest difference in SENA. Not spinning all rounder at no.7.

[sandeep]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Yea if we lose by 6 wickets his 20 or 30 extra runs are not going to make any difference. Besides Ashwin batted well atleast in one innings in the last Test. He looked good in the 2nd innings too before a soft dismissal. He identified it was no use defending there. Pretty much everyone followed suit in the next innings. Yes probably he would have been in the XI. We didn't have Jaddu at the Gabba we won with Sundar. Didn't have Jaddu in the first Test in SA. We won. We did have Jaddu in all 4 tests in England we aer leading 2-1. If we lose the 5th test it will be 2-2.  Seamers & batsmen make the biggest difference in SENA. Not spinning all rounder at no.7.

This is inaccurate - even in seam-dominated games, Jadeja offers a good probability of boosting the Indian total by 50 odd runs or more - that is huge in context.  Even a 20-30 run 1st innings lead can become match-turning in such games, and you are dismissing Jaddu's consistent run production with bias.  Think about it. 

 

I mean, not to knock Ashwin, I love him and its not the worst thing to play him in Jadeja's place, given that he offers the chance that given a bit of help, he can really be more incisive with the ball than Jaddu.  But on the batting front, Jaddu's consistent big runs can't be brushed away.  

[Chakdephatte]

37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

This is inaccurate - even in seam-dominated games, Jadeja offers a good probability of boosting the Indian total by 50 odd runs or more - that is huge in context.  Even a 20-30 run 1st innings lead can become match-turning in such games, and you are dismissing Jaddu's consistent run production with bias.  Think about it. 

 

I mean, not to knock Ashwin, I love him and its not the worst thing to play him in Jadeja's place, given that he offers the chance that given a bit of help, he can really be more incisive with the ball than Jaddu.  But on the batting front, Jaddu's consistent big runs can't be brushed away.  

 

Consistent big runs??

His last ten scores in SENA read-

17,10,30,4,3,40,56,16,15,28*

Before that he scored a fifty at Melbourne. Still two fifties in 11 innings. 

 

[anish2tweet]

 
 
While i agree his form is good, i am not sure how he would match up against Rabada/Jansen who extracted bounce of a good length a known issue for Jadeja.  Anyway Sundar > both Jadeja and Ashwin in  terms of batting. So if we miss someone it is him. He plays genuine quicks better.

Jaddu has never looked uncomfortable against the pacers in SENA. His batting technique is better than most in our lineup, especially Rahane.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk

[vvvslaxman]

7 minutes ago, anish2tweet said:

Jaddu has never looked uncomfortable against the pacers in SENA. His batting technique is better than most in our lineup, especially Rahane.

Sent from my CPH1819 using Tapatalk
 

 

He has not batted in SA yet since his initial years. In Australia once the ball gets older pitch is set you can make runs. Most of our batsmen had no issue making runs there. SA has these cracks where ball just takes off. You don't see that in Australia.

[sandeep]

26 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

His last ten scores in SENA read-

17,10,30,4,3,40,56,16,15,28*

Thats a very good list right there - especially if you think in terms of partnerships that these runs added to the Indian team total. 

 

A 30 run individual score is worth closer to 50 to the team total.  Think back to just the previous test match - if India had 50 more runs on the board, it would be a very different ball game.  Add even 40 runs to our total here, and we would be in the driver's seat.  

 

These margins are non-trivial. 

[Chakdephatte]

1 hour ago, sandeep said:

Thats a very good list right there - especially if you think in terms of partnerships that these runs added to the Indian team total. 

 

A 30 run individual score is worth closer to 50 to the team total.  Think back to just the previous test match - if India had 50 more runs on the board, it would be a very different ball game.  Add even 40 runs to our total here, and we would be in the driver's seat.  

 

These margins are non-trivial. 

I have nothing to say if you think it's a good list. Surely, you wouldn't call it good if it was some other batting all-rounder, say Stokes. If he is playing only 5th bowler overseas, he should average 35, or atleast 30 there. 

[R!TTER]

1 minute ago, Chakdephatte said:

atleast 30 there.

He's avg close to 30, if you included runs post 2018 easily over 30.

[Lord]

Ashwin had the chance to cement his overseas spot. Batting was expected but hes been useless with ball too.Fielding is always useless.

 

Sundar is a top order bat so shouldnt be in the discussion ideally. Axar might be tried next.

[Chakdephatte]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:17 PM, R!TTER said:

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Chakdephatte

[R!TTER]

17 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

Including his runs in India?

Of course not, just S.E.N.A. away and all except two innings were on challenging surfaces!

[vvvslaxman]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Thats a very good list right there - especially if you think in terms of partnerships that these runs added to the Indian team total. 

 

A 30 run individual score is worth closer to 50 to the team total.  Think back to just the previous test match - if India had 50 more runs on the board, it would be a very different ball game.  Add even 40 runs to our total here, and we would be in the driver's seat.  

 

These margins are non-trivial. 

 

His batting wasn't really spectacular in the TC final. He didn't know how to farm the strike. He wasn't even trying to attack.  Made 15 and 16 playing 53 balls and 49 balls respectively. His knocks are useful when there is already a platform. He is not going to take your side to 300 from a position of 100/6.  In the 2nd innings last match Ashwin played well in both the innings. 46 & 19.  Looked in control.  Difference between Ashwin and Jadeja is Ashwin is aggressive from the get go. Jaddu is aggressive only when there is no pressure and the platform is set. Otherwise he often times gets out when he is aggressive. He sure can protect his wicket in his current form.  But is that enough?  Even in TC final Ashwin made 22 in 29 balls. Jaddu made 15 runs in 53 balls in the same innings. Didn't even score quickly with tail.

[zen]

In SENA, need to move away from Ashwin and Jadeja, rank turner specialists, and even Thakur, whose honeymoon appears to be over now

[sandeep]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

His batting wasn't really spectacular in the TC final. He didn't know how to farm the strike. He wasn't even trying to attack.  Made 15 and 16 playing 53 balls and 49 balls respectively. His knocks are useful when there is already a platform. He is not going to take your side to 300 from a position of 100/6.  In the 2nd innings last match Ashwin played well in both the innings. 46 & 19.  Looked in control.  Difference between Ashwin and Jadeja is Ashwin is aggressive from the get go. Jaddu is aggressive only when there is no pressure and the platform is set. Otherwise he often times gets out when he is aggressive. He sure can protect his wicket in his current form.  But is that enough?  Even in TC final Ashwin made 22 in 29 balls. Jaddu made 15 runs in 53 balls in the same innings. Didn't even score quickly with tail.

You're coming at this with some serious confirmation bias.  Tactical choices made by either batsman in specific games and contexts may, or may not work out as intended.  But you cannot argue with Jadeja's reliability with the bat over the last few years.  

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

I have nothing to say if you think it's a good list. Surely, you wouldn't call it good if it was some other batting all-rounder, say Stokes. If he is playing only 5th bowler overseas, he should average 35, or atleast 30 there. 

 

So your critique of Jadeja boils down to - he's not as good as Stokes?  By that token, Virat Kohli is not as good as Steve Smith, should he be thrown out as well? 

 

In low scoring bowler dominated games, Jadeja has repeatedly made vital contributions with the bat.  And we are seeing perfect evidence of the Indian team missing those contributions in the last couple of tests.  Yet you are still carrying on about arbitrary comparison with Stokes' batting, and pulled out of the air imaginary statistical benchmarks.  

 

[sandeep]

46 minutes ago, zen said:

In SENA, need to move away from Ashwin and Jadeja, rank turner specialists, and even Thakur, whose honeymoon appears to be over now

Please check Thakur's bowling stats in "SENA" before you start dismissing him.  The bias isn't exactly dripping, its flooding.