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Is this the end of India's legacy of producing the best LOI batting lineups in the world.

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2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

VVS was atrocious runner between the wickets.I don't think Dinesh Mongia was a bad selection.

he was a bad selection because his bowling wasn't needed; he couldn't handle pace & bounce (his only notable ODI innings were in SC); and his biggest ODI score was against weak opponents. His record against reasonable teams is poor:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/31034.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

VVS was a much better batsman. Mongia was not a Kaif-level fielder, so the 10 runs or so he saved didn't matter that much. what we needed was someone to combat Oz, which was the GOAT team. go look up both VVS' ODI record against Oz and also see his innings.

 

either VVS should have been selected or an extra bowler/AR. no need for a mostly surplus batter who did virtually nothing of notice throughout tourney

Edited by Vijy
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14 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he was a bad selection because his bowling wasn't needed; he couldn't handle pace & bounce (his only notable ODI innings were in SC); and his biggest ODI score was against weak opponents. His record against reasonable teams is poor:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/31034.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

VVS was a much better batsman. Mongia was not a Kaif-level fielder, so the 10 runs or so he saved didn't matter that much. what we needed was someone to combat Oz, which was the GOAT team. go look up both VVS' ODI record against Oz and also see his innings.

 

either VVS should have been selected or an extra bowler/AR. no need for a mostly surplus batter who did virtually nothing of notice throughout tourney

problem with laxman was he cud only bat at no.3 , any below he struggled . Ganguly numbers already started dropping as he went from open to one down and then dropping one down more wud have made it worse. 

He did it for dhoni but by that time his own form was so bad that it seem a better and dhoni looked a great impact player then vvs.

VVS poor fielding, running between wkts n no extra skill didnt help either , neither he was consistent 

 

But the big problem was that the only position that suited him was 3 and it was tough to fit in. Mongia cud bat anywhere laxman cudnt 

One of the reason dravid survived ODI was he cud bat anywhere in order 

V V S Laxman (India) - ODI Cricket
 
Performance Analysis by Batting Position
Position Inns NO 100s 50s 0s HS   Runs Avg S/R Ca St
Opening 5 0 0 0 0 31 54 10.80 38.85 4 0
3 59 4 6 9 3 131 1966 35.75 74.53 24 0
4 12 2 0 1 0 99 248 24.80 70.66 4 0
5 4 0 0 0 0 23 43 10.75 38.74 4 0
6 3 1 0 0 0 23* 27 13.50 62.79 1
Edited by Ankit_sharma03
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On 6/15/2022 at 3:21 AM, Gollum said:

2011 team had some batting firepower

Viru (prime)

SRT (prime)

Gambo (peak)

Kohli (developing)

Yuvi (peak)

MSD (prime)

Raina (peak)/Yusuf (peak)

 

wow, will we ever see another batting lineup like that representing Indian colours?

 

In fact all WC winning teams since 1996 WC have had legendary batting units. This Indian batting lineup doesn't even warrant comparison with those elite ones....what are we going to do next year in the WC? 

No way we will have that kind of lineup.Gambhir had that over my dead body attitude which helped India a lot.He was the unsung hero .

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37 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he was a bad selection because his bowling wasn't needed; he couldn't handle pace & bounce (his only notable ODI innings were in SC); and his biggest ODI score was against weak opponents. His record against reasonable teams is poor:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/31034.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

VVS was a much better batsman. Mongia was not a Kaif-level fielder, so the 10 runs or so he saved didn't matter that much. what we needed was someone to combat Oz, which was the GOAT team. go look up both VVS' ODI record against Oz and also see his innings.

 

either VVS should have been selected or an extra bowler/AR. no need for a mostly surplus batter who did virtually nothing of notice throughout tourney

For a period of 1-2 years around that time VVS was actually more than a decent ODI  bat. Especially against Aussies, he didn't fear them most importantly. Doubt McGrath, Lee would have bothered checking out about Dinesh Mongia pre-match, but a player of VVS' class even in his weak format, would have come up in dressing room discussions of the opponents. Anyway on those kind of pitches it was a no-brainer. We should have used VVS and Kumble in that event, but for some strange reason Dada preferred the fixer and the chucker. 

Edited by Gollum
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33 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he was a bad selection because his bowling wasn't needed; he couldn't handle pace & bounce (his only notable ODI innings were in SC); and his biggest ODI score was against weak opponents. His record against reasonable teams is poor:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/31034.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=default;template=results;type=allround

 

VVS was a much better batsman. Mongia was not a Kaif-level fielder, so the 10 runs or so he saved didn't matter that much. what we needed was someone to combat Oz, which was the GOAT team. go look up both VVS' ODI record against Oz and also see his innings.

 

either VVS should have been selected or an extra bowler/AR. no need for a mostly surplus batter who did virtually nothing of notice throughout tourney

VVS was not going to help India chase 353.Dinesh Mongia was the bits and pieces player you needed to plug the holes.It did not work out but I would not say he was a bad selection.

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43 minutes ago, putrevus said:

VVS was not going to help India chase 353.Dinesh Mongia was the bits and pieces player you needed to plug the holes.It did not work out but I would not say he was a bad selection.

he  may have made a diff in the group stage match where everyone barring Tendu collapsed. And a group stage win against Oz, difficult but not impossible, could have made a diff - this is what happened in 83 WC (group win vs WI + finals win).

 

Bits and pieces players served no purpose since the 00s.

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1 hour ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

problem with laxman was he cud only bat at no.3 , any below he struggled . Ganguly numbers already started dropping as he went from open to one down and then dropping one down more wud have made it worse. 

He did it for dhoni but by that time his own form was so bad that it seem a better and dhoni looked a great impact player then vvs.

VVS poor fielding, running between wkts n no extra skill didnt help either , neither he was consistent 

 

But the big problem was that the only position that suited him was 3 and it was tough to fit in. Mongia cud bat anywhere laxman cudnt 

One of the reason dravid survived ODI was he cud bat anywhere in order 

V V S Laxman (India) - ODI Cricket
 
Performance Analysis by Batting Position
Position Inns NO 100s 50s 0s HS   Runs Avg S/R Ca St
Opening 5 0 0 0 0 31 54 10.80 38.85 4 0
3 59 4 6 9 3 131 1966 35.75 74.53 24 0
4 12 2 0 1 0 99 248 24.80 70.66 4 0
5 4 0 0 0 0 23 43 10.75 38.74 4 0
6 3 1 0 0 0 23* 27 13.50 62.79 1

what did Mongia do lower down the order? I don't remember him doing anything of note. his only major innings came as opener.

 

I will also ask: what did mongia's supposed "extra skills" do for Ind in WC? one must back specialists. we already had batters who could bowl in Sehwag, SRT, ganguly, yuvi. no need for 1 more player.

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Just now, Vijy said:

what did Mongia do lower down the order? I don't remember him doing anything of note. his only major innings came as opener.

 

Does that mean u send laxman down the order , that wud have never worked either and then all his minuses 

 

Just now, Vijy said:

I will also ask: what did mongia's supposed "extra skills" do for Ind in WC? one must back specialists. we already had batters who could bowl in Sehwag, SRT, ganguly, yuvi. no need for 1 more player.

He did do 5th bowler job in few games , yuvi didnt bowl much in those days. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

he  may have made a diff in the group stage match where everyone barring Tendu collapsed. And a group stage win against Oz, difficult but not impossible, could have made a diff - this is what happened in 83 WC (group win vs WI + finals win).

 

Bits and pieces players served no purpose since the 00s.

we went through final, what more difference u wanted ? 

We only lost 2games that against Aus............that Aus was unbetable . Yes laxman loved them but still wasnt a player who ll make that huge a diff in end 

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I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not gonna pursue it further with @Ankit_sharma03 and @putrevus

 

We can agree to disagree. If you think that Mongia actually made a diff in that WC, good for you. I am not saying VVS would have undoubtedly made a diff. However, as he showed in 2004 (less than 1 yr after 2003 WC), he could be a good ODI bat. he had his best year in 2004 iirc with an avg of >40.

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2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'm not gonna pursue it further with @Ankit_sharma03 and @putrevus

 

We can agree to disagree. If you think that Mongia actually made a diff in that WC, good for you. I am not saying VVS would have undoubtedly made a diff. However, as he showed in 2004 (less than 1 yr after 2003 WC), he could be a good ODI bat. he had his best year in 2004 iirc with an avg of >40.

yea but u also have to consider in 2004 laxman was in the best form of his life. That one month he scored 4 -100s

In 2003 he was in very poor form . Both wudnt have made any difference but then its a captain calls who he feels more comfertable with. Wont call it some injustice as even laxman wud have made no difference as he had so many limitation starting with fitting in the batting order 

Edited by Ankit_sharma03
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1 hour ago, Vijy said:

what did Mongia do lower down the order? I don't remember him doing anything of note. his only major innings came as opener.

 

I will also ask: what did mongia's supposed "extra skills" do for Ind in WC? one must back specialists. we already had batters who could bowl in Sehwag, SRT, ganguly, yuvi. no need for 1 more player.

We will discuss this seperately someother time. I don't want to hijack the thread.

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