Can we safely crown England an ATG LOI team if they win the T20 WC?

[sage]

No other team has ever held both the ODI and T20 world cups at the same time. It will crown the Morgan project begun after 2015 after their disgraceful exit to Bangladesh.

[cricketfan28]

We can crown them already, since they changed the game. 

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, sage said:

No other team has ever held both the ODI and T20 world cups at the same time. It will crown the Morgan project begun after 2015 after their disgraceful exit to Bangladesh.

we could, except that they will fall by the wayside of Pakistan's triumph. the mughals vs the british raj, as someone wrote elsewhere on ICF

[sage]

2 minutes ago, cricketfan28 said:

We can crown them already, since they changed the game. 

People are still calling England overrated on ICF

[cricketfan28]

Just now, sage said:

People are still calling England overrated on ICF

I did as well, lesson learned.

[Vijy]

5 minutes ago, cricketfan28 said:

We can crown them already, since they changed the game. 

that's a good way of putting it.

[sage]

Hmm Telegraph going against the thesis

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cricket/2022/11/11/t20-world-cup-even-england-win-still-wont-greatest-white-ball/

 

For England’s white-ball side, Sunday at the Melbourne Cricket Ground holds out the promise of marking them out as a side who don’t just reach a brilliant peak, but can climb the summit again. In five global tournaments since 2016, England are the only country to reach the semi-finals every time. The only snag is that the 2019 World Cup remains the lone trophy that England have won. A second World Cup triumph during this era would elevate their achievements to a higher plane.

In limited-overs international cricket, there have been three previous dynasties. From 1975-83, West Indies won the first two men’s World Cups, and then reached the final in the third; with their aggressive batting, led by Viv Richards, focus upon fitness and Joel Garner’s mastery of yorkers, West Indies were pioneers too.

Australia’s team around the turn of the century were the second international dynasty. They remain the lone side to win three consecutive World Cups. The triumphs of 1999, 2003 and 2007 were founded upon an attack who – through Shane Warne’s leg spin, the express pace of Brett Lee and Shaun Tait and the unstinting excellence of Glenn McGrath – could hunt wickets throughout. 

Australia’s batting line-up possessed staggering range and depth: top-order aggression from Adam Gilchrist and Matthew Hayden; Ricky Ponting's relentless scoring; Michael Bevan's finishing mastery; Andrew Symonds' explosiveness. 

Under head coach John Buchanan, Australia were also masters of marginal gains. Areas like fielding, fitness and running between the wickets were once areas in which weaker sides could close the gap; for Australia, they were a tool to increase their superiority further still.

 

 

The current generation of England cricketers have emphatically changed the game too. In one-day international cricket, England were pioneers in recognising the full possibilities presented by the limit of four fielders outside the 30-yard circle until the last 10 overs. Rather than consolidate in the middle overs, England double down – leading them to reach gargantuan totals with unprecedented reliability.

In T20, England’s achievement has been to fuse the best of the last two international white-ball dynasties. They can clear the ropes as frequently as the great West Indies T20 side. They combine this power with the dynamism of the three-time Australian World Cup winners; both traits come together in the ramp, a shot that has become a staple of English white-ball batsmanship.

England back themselves to win a game decided by sixes. But, with their adaptability and hard running between the wickets, England also back themselves to win a game decided by singles and twos. 

The combination of 360-degree aggression and calculated thinking – so brilliantly evident in how Jos Buttler and Alex Hales targeted the short square boundaries in the semi-final against India – is so ingrained that it now runs through England's entire culture of white-ball batting. As evident in the signals sent by analyst Nathan Leamon to the captain during games, England are also at the cutting edge of integrating data into their thinking.

 

Winning a second global crown on Sunday would instantly elevate the historical standing of this England era. When added to the long periods that they have enjoyed at the summit of the world rankings – they are currently ranked first in ODIs and second in T20Is – World Cup glory would mean England could be proclaimed as the fourth dynasty in international limited-overs cricket.

This England side would still need at least one more triumph to challenge Australia’s 1999-2007 side as the greatest in international limited-overs cricket. 

That team’s three World Cups were won on three different continents, all away from home; during this spell Australia even won a global tournament on a fourth continent, when they waltzed to the 2006 Champions Trophy in India. And between tournaments, Australia were far more dominant than the current England side: overall, Australia won 3.5 ODIs for each one they lost from 1999-2007, compared to England’s ratio of 2.3 since the 2015 World Cup.

But if Buttler's side win on Sunday, they would be the first team ever to hold aloft the ODI and T20 World Cups simultaneously: indelible proof of the greatness of this age of England white-ball cricket. And it would cement this side’s standing as a different kind of English sporting team – a side who couldn’t just briefly get to the top, but stay there.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Rishi Sunak will deliver...  Hopefully a great performance in FIFA too

[Lone Wolf]

India held WC2011 & CT13 at same time... ATG status was within grasp in WT20 2014...  The rarest of rare trifecta.  But then Mudi's panauti began with a bang

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Lone Wolf said:

India held WC2011 & CT13 at same time... ATG status was within grasp in WT20 2014...  The rarest of rare trifecta.  But then Mudi's panauti began with a bang

and then came along the maestros - tuk-tuk sharma, off-color yuvi, midget rahane, and so on

[IndianRenegade]

Yes

[vvvslaxman]

They have changed the approach. But not based on this world t20. They have been poor in this except this match. They did have their struggles

[sage]

ATG?

[R!TTER]

No, need to do this over 10 years to close to get WI & of course Oz 

 

If we're handing ATG trophies based on just 2 wins then India's CT 2013 was even more comprehensive! Won every game including practice matches.

Edited November 13, 2022 by R!TTER

[deepdynamo]

Definetly ATG in 2016-22 Era.

 

Won 2 world cups ( 2019, 2022) and  been in 1 final( 2016) and 2 seminfinal ( 2017, 2021).

 

 

[sage]

Just now, R!TTER said:

No, need to do this over 10 years to close to get WI & of course Oz 

 

If we're handing ATG trophies based on just 2 wins then India's CT 2013 was even more comprehensive! Won every game including practice matches.

But this is the only team to ever hold both WCs at the same time

[R!TTER]

Ok so? Is that supposed to a benchmark all of a sudden?

[the don]

Yes. ATG white ball depth. 
No team comes close.

[straighttalk]

Results wise they are getting there but far from the Australian team of 1999 to 2007..that team won over a long time and has 16 17 test streak..won in India too. I know you talk about t20 and odis only but that shows their pedigree when other teams were not weak.

 

What england has shown is an aggressive batting style but their bowlers don't hold a candle to warne McGrath Brett Lee.

 

If they can win over some years and across conditions..then maybe yes.

[jalebi_bhai]

Yes.

 

They have re-written the meta of white ball cricket and done the WC double, all within a decade. The performance ceiling that this side possesses is immense and on the days that they hit that ceiling, nothing can stop them. You can have a good day with the bat, they will still win.

 

They have evolved as a team and now have plenty of depth in batting and bowling. 

 

Sri Lanka 96 also re-wrote the meta of ODI batting in the 90s but didn't have any prolonged success after that world cup.