Hatsoff to Jadeja and Ashwin - Golden combination for Indian test cricket

[Lone Wolf]

22 minutes ago, speedracer said:

Doesn't jaddu have good stats in SA too.

Played only 1 test I guess... 

[vvvslaxman]

6 hours ago, Majestic said:

What are their SENA bowling averages overseas? 

 

38 or 40??

 

Overseas our roles are different.  They rarely play together overseas. We use different cricket balls overseas for one thing. Second thing teams like England go out of their way to nullify spin threat leaving enough grass not to deteriroate before day  6 or 7.  Apart from chuklidaran and Warne nobody has frequently run through sides over seas. Even they struggled in India. Murali struggled in Australia.

[Majestic]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Overseas our roles are different.  They rarely play together overseas. We use different cricket balls overseas for one thing. Second thing teams like England go out of their way to nullify spin threat leaving enough grass not to deteriroate before day  6 or 7.  Apart from chuklidaran and Warne nobody has frequently run through sides over seas. Even they struggled in India. Murali struggled in Australia.

Neither has Ashwin/Jadeja. So, what makes Ashwin/Jadeja as good as Warne or better than the rest like Kumble, Swann, Lyon? Talking purely about bowling. Also, there have been bowlers in past like Richie Benaud and a few more who have done well in most conditions.

[R!TTER]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

If Indore turns but bounce stays consistent...  Aussies should employ all kinds of sweep they want. 

Tada, Vibhishan - has revealed our biggest weakness 

 

Think of Pune 2017 - big turn but consistent bounce, Bangalore 2017 - good turn but inconsistent bounce, similarly Nagpur 2023 - not too much turn (wrt Pune) but more up & down & finally Delhi - similar to Bangalore 2017 

 

Here's another secret, when the ball stays low/doesn't bounce as much guess what happens - it doesn't turn that big either! Here's the opposite of that, not exactly the same scenario but still high bounce & huge turn -

 

With low or inconsistent bounce you can control sweep much more effectively, also it kinda helps your lbw's as well!

[speedracer]

10 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Neither has Ashwin/Jadeja. So, what makes Ashwin/Jadeja as good as Warne or better than the rest like Kumble, Swann, Lyon? Talking purely about bowling. Also, there have been bowlers in past like Richie Benaud and a few more who have done well in most conditions.

Also don't forget drs and pace attack support. 

 

Give kumble goat Asian pace attack I.e Indian attack and he will rip through teams in sena too. 

 

Lyon benefitted alot in sena because or Cummins and starc. 

 

[Lord]

14 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Neither has Ashwin/Jadeja. So, what makes Ashwin/Jadeja as good as Warne or better than the rest like Kumble, Swann, Lyon? Talking purely about bowling. Also, there have been bowlers in past like Richie Benaud and a few more who have done well in most conditions.

 

I don't think anyone claims they are as good bowlers as Warne/Murali.

 

Though Warne struggled in India and WI,Murali in India and Oz

 

Everyone founds some conditions tough.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Neither has Ashwin/Jadeja. So, what makes Ashwin/Jadeja as good as Warne or better than the rest like Kumble, Swann, Lyon? Talking purely about bowling. Also, there have been bowlers in past like Richie Benaud and a few more who have done well in most conditions.

 

India's bowling make up is vastly different. India almost and always exclusively relied on pace overseas. These two were never utilized as strike weapons. Mostly holding roles were played by these two except on road wickets. For Australia it was either Mcgrath or Warne. For SL it was Murali or Vaas to lesser extent. If you look at the avge/SR/longevity combo these two are next best after Warne/Murali.  

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, speedracer said:

Also don't forget drs and pace attack support. 

 

Give kumble goat Asian pace attack I.e Indian attack and he will rip through teams in sena too. 

 

Lyon benefitted alot in sena because or Cummins and starc. 

 

 

Give Ash/Jaddu 400-500 to defend and they'll be even better. Tell them to focus only on their bowling, they'll even better.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

I don't think anyone claims they are as good bowlers as Warne/Murali.

 

Though Warne struggled in India and WI,Murali in India and Oz

 

Everyone founds some conditions tough.

 

Exactly. Besides they are their main bowlers. Obviously their roles and utliziation is vastly different. Ashwin/Jaddu were mostly 4th or 5th bowling option for us overseas. Our bowling approach is vastly different overseas.  Warne being a leggie has a huge advantage. Murali has this freak action. 

[speedracer]

48 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Give Ash/Jaddu 400-500 to defend and they'll be even better. Tell them to focus only on their bowling, they'll even better.

True. I am not disputing their greatness. I am just saying kumble would have been lethal too. 

 

Ash and jaddu are atgs easily. 

[speedracer]

Ash cmon Ash cmon Ash cmon Ash and jaddu bhai jaddu bhai are >>>> Warne and murali in Asia. 

 

In sena Warne and murali is superior but the gap is closer in England, nz for Ash. 

Closer for jaddu in SA and aus. 

 

 

[Sooda]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Post 1990, as bowlers Warne and Murali are exceptions. 

 

Ashwin, Jaddu, Kumble, Lyon, Swann come in the next tier, one can always make cases for any of them but broadly similar calibre of spinners with their own strengths and weaknesses. What Ashwin and especially Jaddu have over the others is batting, not just runs but the clutch/tough runs to help their teams out on a regular basis. 

 

Bhajji, Herath, Vettori probably the next tier. But Vettori has 6 test 100s, Bhajji 2, that makes them more valuable cricketers than Herath.

 

Saqlain, Mushtaq Ahmed, Yasir, Macgill, Shakib, Kaneria, Moeen in 4th tier. Lack consistency/longevity but still quite good. 

 

 

Saqlain and Ahmed are both at least in that so called second tier. Ahmed has actually won matches away from home for Pak which is more than Indian greats can say. Saqlain took 20+ wickets in three tests against the best players of spin ever in 1999/2000.

 

The idea that they're in the same bracket as Moeen and Shakib is idiotic. Just because they didn't drag their careers on for 100 tests and we'll past their sell by dates dosent mean they are lesser bowlers 

[speedracer]

18 minutes ago, Sooda said:

Saqlain and Ahmed are both at least in that so called second tier. Ahmed has actually won matches away from home for Pak which is more than Indian greats can say. Saqlain took 20+ wickets in three tests against the best players of spin ever in 1999/2000.

 

The idea that they're in the same bracket as Moeen and Shakib is idiotic. Just because they didn't drag their careers on for 100 tests and we'll past their sell by dates dosent mean they are lesser bowlers 

Not Ahmed

 Saqlain yes

[AuxiliA]

If we had Kumble, Harbhajan and whatever third spinner that we used to play around 2000, instead of our current spin trio, we certainly would have lost this test, or even the first test. 

 

No way they were bailing India out from 130/7 with the bat and wouldn't have done any better than Ash-Jaddu with the ball. 

 

The batting prowess of our spinners is the  difference between the two sides. 

[DeepSpace]

Jaddu is the only player from this team that deserves knighthood! Will King Charles step up?

[R!TTER]

55 minutes ago, AuxiliA said:

If we had Kumble, Harbhajan and whatever third spinner that we used to play around 2000, instead of our current spin trio, we certainly would have lost this test, or even the first test. 

 

No way they were bailing India out from 130/7 with the bat and wouldn't have done any better than Ash-Jaddu with the ball. 

 

The batting prowess of our spinners is the  difference between the two sides. 

Debatable, if we had our best batting lineup from 2008-2010 there's a good chance we wouldn't be 130/7 in the first place. IIRC all of the top 7 had avg above 40 & 4 avg above 50, including GG. Yes the form matters & that's why I'm counting that phase. We beat the best Oz side visiting India in 2004, with a massive first innings deficit, on a square turner at Mumbai albeit batting first.

[Lord]

Jaddu bats on pattas and bowls on 'tailored' pitches

 

 

 

[AuxiliA]

22 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Debatable, if we had our best batting lineup from 2008-2010 there's a good chance we wouldn't be 130/7 in the first place.

 

That was my whole point. I wasn't saying that India 2023 > India 2008. What I meant was Jadeja+Ashwin > Kumble+Harbhajan. 

 

Their (clutch) batting adds a whole new dimension to them as compared to other pure bowlers.

 

They are too OP is favourable conditions and at worst handy as a package in unfavorable ones. Never a liability. 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by AuxiliA

[R!TTER]

Yes & tbf to the current side had they been in form we'd absolutely smash everyone at home, nearly by innings each game but that's not happening in part because of out of form/order stalwarts in the top six.

[Lord]

11 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Yes & tbf to the current side had they been in form we'd absolutely smash everyone at home, nearly by innings each game but that's not happening in part because of out of form/order stalwarts in the top six.

 

We'd have won everywhere even overseas if we kicked out Rahane,Pujara etc in time.