Is lack of bilateral cricket against Pakistan the main reason behind our trophy drought?

[Lone Wolf]

6 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

 

Age problem started probably after 2020. Before that all these players used to be at their peak but still used to shite the bed completely in knockouts. Rohit and Kohli were in monstrous form in white ball cricket from 2015-2019, but failed when it mattered. You could clearly see their body language..Kohli in that 2019 SF against NZ looked like a deer caught in headlights and who can forget his mega feat of getting out twice in two balls against Mo Amir...

 

The problem for the most part was mental. Abject failure in handling the pressure thanks to playing 90% of the games in low pressure bilaterals. 

They were 25-27 year old in 2013-14 period we won ICC trophy & next year reached the finals of 2014 T20 WC...  Lost due to washed up Yuvi. 

Won all group games in 2015 WC...  Lost to a near invincible Aussie side in Semi at their home.  Performance started getting worse from there on. 

I think this is ideal age as a group to win tournaments for SC sides considering fitness,  reflexes and everything. 

 

Last 3 ICC events we have lost are all based on washed up oldies hogging spots for youngsters...  WC 2019 was proper choke I agree with carrying baggage Dhongi Bose DK & Jadhav...  Three maha oldies in there...  I see a clear patters here. 

 

[maniac]

One advantage I see playing Pakistan regularly is getting used to their bowling.

 

Pakistan do have very good white ball bowlers. All their fast bowlers in LOIs bowl 140+ consistently including the newer folk. They are also  usually unorthodox. Their  LoI spinners are more or less  the same quality as Indian loi spinners.

 

Playing them definitely  has that advantage. However not playing them regularly isn’t a crisis situation. I don’t see India magically winning trophies if we start playing them regularly. We have been owned by teams like Eng, Aus, even Wi, SL at times in crunch moments whom we play every other week.

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by maniac

[Norman]

3 hours ago, LordPrabhzy said:

 

No... learn to comprehend.

 

The reason BCCI has financial muscle and made IPL its priority which is affecting our international results is down to FANS and their eyeballs. Once people have had enough and take their eyeballs somewhere else while voicing their displeasure at BCCI, less add revenue, less broadcasting deals, less money for BCCI, less money for IPL. Its all a chain reaction which needs an action at the start to have some long term impact for BCCI to sit up and take notice, to do things differently

 

Okay. And what will they do "differently" once we stop watching?

 

Will they suddenly flick a switch somewhere that will magically make us win all trophies known to mankind? Do you think BCCI is that dumb that they can't understand a simple fact that more trophies for India will automatically bring in more fans and thereby more money to them? Matlab kuch bhi....

 

We love to dog BCCI for anything and everything but if you sit back and give it a thought, there's actually not so much they can do when the best players in the country are serial chokers. It's not like we are having a severe corruption or nepotism in team selection. 99% of the time , the squads that are selected for the tournaments are the best 15 in the country. Now how to get those 15 to perform somewhere to the best of their abilities when it matters the most is the big question? And the answer is definitely not "stop watching them". 

[Norman]

53 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

They were 25-27 year old in 2013-14 period we won ICC trophy & next year reached the finals of 2014 T20 WC...  Lost due to washed up Yuvi. 

Won all group games in 2015 WC...  Lost to a near invincible Aussie side in Semi at their home.  Performance started getting worse from there on. 

I think this is ideal age as a group to win tournaments for SC sides considering fitness,  reflexes and everything. 

 

Last 3 ICC events we have lost are all based on washed up oldies hogging spots for youngsters...  WC 2019 was proper choke I agree with carrying baggage Dhongi Bose DK & Jadhav...  Three maha oldies in there...  I see a clear patters here. 

 

 

Agree on the age factor but even if you consider that , they are still performing way way below their usual selves in crunch games. There are failures and then there are abject surrenders scoring single digits... i.e Rohit in CT 2013 , CT 17 , WC 19 ....Kohli in WC 15, CT 17, WC 19 .....you can't really put that aside as an age related decline. These players are definitely overawed by the situation...It's not a skill or techncal issue.

[Norman]

52 minutes ago, maniac said:

We have been owned by teams like Eng, Aus, even Wi, SL at times in crunch moments whom we play every other week.

 

Exactly my point. If we are beating them without breaking a sweat in normal games , what is going wrong in knockout games? Obviously , it's case of catching cold feet due to not being used to that kind of pressure for 99% of their playing time.

 

And it's not about getting habituated to certain kind of bowlers though. These are all international players and have faced thousands of deliveries across different heights and different angles and pace so it shouldn't be an issue facing a bowler for the first time especially in this day and age of video footage and data. 

[singhvivek141]

It's a simple problem of carrying too much baggage on your shoulders. Our senior players are simply unable to get rid of their past failures, and thus choke at the slightest moment of indecisiveness. Playing Pakistan or not isn't going to matter here.

 

If India really wants to get rid of this monkey, they have to make a fresh start, they have to reboot the team.

 

We need to stop picking players for all 3 formats, as simple as that. You can either be a T20 and/or ODI..or an ODI and/or a Test player..but not all three.

 

Stop chasing the useless milestones of 100 100's...cricket is not a individual sport, its a team game so team comes first above the individuals. Look at Auzzies, they don't have any record of most runs, centuries, wickets etc..but what do they have is number of batters and bowlers who all have good to great average with both bat and the ball.

 

BCCI also need to invest more in stadiums like Lahli, Dharamshala and Dehradun...create the pitches who offer something to the bowlers. Atleast during the winter season our players will get 10% knowledge of how to play in English and Kiwi conditions. Not everything has to be played on the dusty grounds of Chennai, Hyderabad, Nagpur and Delhi which offer zilch to the pacers.

 

Anyways, even with all these suggestions..I am damn sure BCCI will learn nothing and will again try to put things under the carpet. That's what they have been doing after the 2011 WC and the results post that shows our decline in the tough conditions.

Edited June 12, 2023 by singhvivek141

[maniac]

22 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

And it's not about getting habituated to certain kind of bowlers though. These are all international players and have faced thousands of deliveries across different heights and different angles and pace so it shouldn't be an issue facing a bowler for the first time especially in this day and age of video footage and data. 

of course; all I am saying is if you have to pick an advantage of playing Pak,

apart from playing a good quality bowling attack there is no real upside. 
 

the pressure- vessure will vanish by the 2nd-3rd game where it will look like

any-other boring bilateral.

 

Apart from maybe Chennai test, most Ind-Pak test matches and bilateral ODIs are excruciatingly boring to watch. There might be a one off thriller. Play Zimbabwe enough and you will get enough thrillers  there as well. Even in T20’s the novelty will wear off really quick once we play regularly.

 

 

 

 

[LordPrabhzy]

53 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Okay. And what will they do "differently" once we stop watching?

 

Will they suddenly flick a switch somewhere that will magically make us win all trophies known to mankind? Do you think BCCI is that dumb that they can't understand a simple fact that more trophies for India will automatically bring in more fans and thereby more money to them? Matlab kuch bhi....

 

We love to dog BCCI for anything and everything but if you sit back and give it a thought, there's actually not so much they can do when the best players in the country are serial chokers. It's not like we are having a severe corruption or nepotism in team selection. 99% of the time , the squads that are selected for the tournaments are the best 15 in the country. Now how to get those 15 to perform somewhere to the best of their abilities when it matters the most is the big question? And the answer is definitely not "stop watching them". 

 

Again for some reason you're thinking that the players and the BCCI are different entities with each of their aims being separate and BCCI cannot do anything if the players are choking or not preparing for the right format at the right time. What is the ROOT CAUSE.

 

Its funny if you think the best players are being selected for each format.. test selection is done on IPL performance, ODIs are selected on past experience etc. Can you actually sit here and claim that for the last 3/4 years the BEST team for each format has been selected? So laughable. You again fail to admit that for BCCI, the IPL and the revenue of TV rights is the ONLY priority. For them playing international cricket is a unnecessary headache. They said players can miss IPL but cant miss internationals.. how many players follow that. They are contracted players who are forced by franchises and BCCI to turn up for a competition which depends on tv rights which depend on Indian players presence. So rather than just dismissing the problem as mental choking, its a wider economic issue which is now affecting Team India due the direction created by BCCI and made worse by the players who see the T20 franchise option to aspire to as opposed to playing Test cricket for India. If all this is funded by people watching IPL/indian matches then what is the logical solution to rectify the problem?

[BacktoCricaddict]

OP may be on to something, but for a slightly different reason.  IMO, it's not about the players getting used to pressure, but imagine the backlash on selectors and BCCI admins if we managed to lose a few matches to Pakistan.  Heads will roll, captains will change, oldies will be phased out.  But, on balance, is it worth all the hassle of security issues that come with regular Indo-Pak cricket?  Perhaps not.

[bowl_out]

We may mock Gambhir all we want, but the reason he mentions is the cause of our downfall.

 

Individual players have become larger than the team and the game. Earlier there was one - Sachin who fans treated bigger than the team, but in the 90s, he was the team. There was literally not one other reliable batter. And Sachin didn't let that affect his game. He still made big scores in the 2011 WC.

 

The hero worship of captains started with Ganguly.. And then Dhoni.. But they backed it up with performances. India won 3 ICC trophies under Dhoni.

 

The hero worship continued into the Kohli and Rohit era. The PR and fan worship is getting more and more unbearable by the day.

The bigger than team attitude, experience over performance attitude is what is killing the motivation.. 

Plus IPL and sponsorship pays them crores more than BCCI contracts, so why would they push themselves to do more.

 

 

[bowl_out]

One other thing for Tests is that we are always satisfied playing on dustbowls at home and shooting down anybody who talks against having such pitches.

 

Wonder why we can't have at least 3-4 good true wickets where we can play at least 1-2 matches every series instead of playing all matches on dustbowls.

 

Dharamshala, Mumbai, Mohali, Eden Gardens could be some venues to prepare such wickets

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

One other thing for Tests is that we are always satisfied playing on dustbowls at home and shooting down anybody who talks against having such pitches.

 

Wonder why we can't have at least 3-4 good true wickets where we can play at least 1-2 matches every series instead of playing all matches on dustbowls.

 

Dharamshala, Mumbai, Mohali, Eden Gardens could be some venues to prepare such wickets

 

Same reason Eng plays in swing conditions and Aus/SA play bouncy tracks etc

[zen]

15 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Same reason Eng plays in swing conditions and Aus/SA play bouncy tracks etc

Swing is dependent on overhead conditions and condition of the ball. A relatively green pitch is good for batting too as the grass holds the pitch longer. 
 

Aus and SA do not tailor pitches. Aus plays at venues such as SCG too. 

This is how the respective teams have played since time immemorial. 
 

Ind goes out of the way to leave pitches underprepared (or even selective preparing). Rank turners were used widely from 90s onward. And these pitches are hurting the overall most conditions development of Indian cricketers too.

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by zen

[Lord]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Swing is dependent on overhead conditions and condition of the ball. A relatively green pitch is good for batting too as the grass holds the pitch longer. 

 

So is spin. In hot conditions tough to get swing pitches. Green pitches become roads after 1-2 sessions.

 

Green pitches encourage trundlers like Bhuvi/Philander who don't do much else. And there is nothing for spinners

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

 

Aus and SA do not tailor pitches. Aus plays at venues such as SCG too

 

and India plays at venues like Dharamsala,Wankhede that offer bounce and good batting conditions

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

 

Ind goes out of the way to leave pitches underprepared (or even selective preparing). And these pitches are hurting the overall most conditions development of Indian cricketers too.
 

every country prepares pitches to their strengths. Pak prepared roads for England. NZ gave us green lawns in 2020 

[zen]

Just now, Lord said:

 

So is spin. In hot conditions tough to get swing pitches. Green pitches become roads after 1-2 sessions.

 

Green pitches encourage trundlers like Bhuvi/Philander who don't do much else. And there is nothing for spinners

 

and India plays at venues like Dharamsala,Wankhede that offer bounce and good batting conditions

every country prepares pitches to their strengths. Pak prepared roads for England. NZ gave us green lawns in 2020 

Tailoring or doctoring pitches is relatively unfair cricket under the guise of “home advantage”. 
 

India has the option to prepare better relatively sporting pitches. A county has to keep getting better at sports esp. if it has resources and look to play in as sporting conditions as possible.
 

Otherwise there is not much difference b/w the mindset of Indian cricket, BD cricket, and SL cricket. 

[rollingstoned]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

 

Agree on the age factor but even if you consider that , they are still performing way way below their usual selves in crunch games. There are failures and then there are abject surrenders scoring single digits... i.e Rohit in CT 2013 , CT 17 , WC 19 ....Kohli in WC 15, CT 17, WC 19 .....you can't really put that aside as an age related decline. These players are definitely overawed by the situation...It's not a skill or techncal issue.

Consistently not performing well enough in crunch matches points to a mental issue and most mental issues in team sports are down to leadership. We have only had extremes after dhoni quit white ball captaincy ie someone who is too charged up in Kohli or someone way too relaxed like Hitman. 

[bowl_out]

47 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Same reason Eng plays in swing conditions and Aus/SA play bouncy tracks etc

 

I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean we play all our home games on dustbowls that last 2.5 days. 

Isn't is better to have a mix, showcase that we can win on all pitches and have our batsmen accustomed to those conditions before they go overseas?

 

Also, this thing that Aus has pacy bouncy tracks is overstated. Adelaide, Melbourne are flat pancakes. 

 

[Malcolm Merlyn]

Imran Khan 

Wasim Akram

Waqar Younis

Saqlain Mushtaq

 

They would have been good practice for facing the Aussies.

[Lord]

20 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

I don't deny that. But that doesn't mean we play all our home games on dustbowls that last 2.5 days. 

Isn't is better to have a mix, showcase that we can win on all pitches and have our batsmen accustomed to those conditions before they go overseas?

 

Also, this thing that Aus has pacy bouncy tracks is overstated. Adelaide, Melbourne are flat pancakes. 

 

Games lasting 2.5 days is due to SENA teams inability to play spin or even reverse swing. Our own batsmen do fine even now on such pitches.There are occasional rank turners but not every game.

 

We can't make greentops in India with its hot conditions. Though our pacers have done well in India too.

 

If WTC final was in UAE/SL, then it'll be completely different.

 

 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Lord said:

Games lasting 2.5 days is due to SENA teams inability to play spin or even reverse swing. Our own batsmen do fine even now on such pitches.There are occasional rank turners but not every game.

 

We can't make greentops in India with its hot conditions. Though our pacers have done well in India too.

 

If WTC final was in UAE/SL, then it'll be completely different.

 

 

Those tracks are prepared for the exact purpose of taking the batsmen of the visiting batsmen out of the game without much effort. 

No one is saying to prepare green tops only but a variety of pitches and not doctored one. Btw, Ind has prepared green top. An example is when Ganguly refused to play v Aus. 
 

UAE and SL will not offer doctored pitches.