Is lack of bilateral cricket against Pakistan the main reason behind our trophy drought?

[Norman]

Ok hear me out guys...

 

I know most people here are vehemently against having any kind of bilateral relations with Paxtan especially when it comes to a high profit venture like a cricketing tour and I completely understand the sentiment but...

 

Do you think it's a mere coincidence that we stopped winning high pressure games in big tournaments once we stopped playing bilateral series' with Pakistan? We won the champions trophy in 2013 just months after losing an ODI series at home to them. We won the WT20 in 2007 a month after beating them in both Test and ODI series at home. 

 

Point is...we all know that any game against Pakistan even if it's a rag tag bilateral rubber, carries a lot of external pressure for the players involved. Losing is never an option for the fans and the players know it too. Just look at the way our players celebrated a dead rubber win at Delhi in 2013 even when the series was already lost. They were under severe pressure to avoid a humiliating clean sweep against the arch rivals on home soil and fought tooth and nail to defend 150 odd. If that was South Africa or Sri Lanka, no way they'd have won that game. That series really battle hardened our guys and removed any fear of failure allowing them to express themselves in the Champions Trophy. Not a single player looked under any sort of pressure even when Morgan and Bopara were taking it away from us. Imagine the current lot defending a paltry 130 in an ICC final...

 

And then , we also wonder how Australians are so dominant and mentally strong when it comes to big games but it's pretty simple - they regularly play a month and half long Ashes against England , which comes with enormous pressure from the Australian public and media. After AFL , it's the Ashes that has the biggest pull among all sporting events down under. Win or loss - they're battle hardened at the end of day. 

 

I may get a lot of shtick for this, but we got to find a way for our next generation to play as much Indo-Pak cricket as possible without actually benefiting the PCB too much. 

 

 

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Could be a factor but main reason is age factor....  The last time India won a ICC event was when 70% of the team was <27 years of age. 

Kohli Rohit Jadeja Dhawan,  Ashwin Ishant Boobie were all in their prime even Dhongi baba.

 

The fielding unit alone was the best ever we ever had. 

 

Since then we have oldies galore... 

 

Pakistan followed similar template in 2017 CT & it gave them a title win. 

They learned from 2015 ODI WC,  2016 T20 WC defeat where they had oldies & reaped rewards instantly. 

 

In my view BCCI should try to field a side which is 70-80% under 27 years of age to win a title. 

Age shame  these oldies...  Media hypes up their records & eggsperince & fans need to change their mindset as well. 

[Austin 3:!6]

No that is not the reason and has got nothing to do with it. Pakistan beaten us T20 WC in 2021 and broken the streak. What changed in next T20 WC? Nothing. We went with the same team and failed again.

 

India don't win ICC events bcoz our players are not good enough. Money cant buy quality and most of our cricketers are overpaid & overhyped. Someone posted yesterday that Saurav Ganguly avgs just 1 run less than Kohli in SENA countries. Ganguly is considered a mediocre test player where as Kohli is supposed to be once in a generation player. So the quality of our cricketers have gone down drastically.

[Gollum]

You may have a point OP. 

[LordPrabhzy]

I see your thinking and it may have held true if the calibre of the Pak team was as good as 90s early 2000s. If we didnt have the experience to play a high pessure match ( el Classico) against a good team then it doesnt build mental strength against even better sides.

 

But the truth is our team is not past caring. The old lot dont care about anything as they are untouchable so for them playing Pak is like any other game ( now worse as the streak is broken and we cant take winning against Pak for granted). and the new gen is made on IPL, they dont have the toughness to slog it out in Internationals. They are happy to play 20 overs take home a good paycheck and endorsements, post on insta, reels, tik tok, go to maldives.

 

This combination of players will do nothing in ICC events even if we were playing bilateral against Pak

[sage]

26 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

No that is not the reason and has got nothing to do with it. Pakistan beaten us T20 WC in 2021 and broken the streak. What changed in next T20 WC? Nothing. We went with the same team and failed again.

 

India don't win ICC events bcoz our players are not good enough. Money cant buy quality and most of our cricketers are overpaid & overhyped. Someone posted yesterday that Saurav Ganguly avgs just 1 run less than Kohli in SENA countries. Ganguly is considered a mediocre test player where as Kohli is supposed to be once in a generation player. So the quality of our cricketers have gone down drastically.

He's saying a full series against Pakistan will help players adapt to high stakes pressure. Not a one-off match. We've been playing Pakistan in ICC tournaments every year.

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Lone Wolf said:

Could be a factor but main reason is age factor....  The last time India won a ICC event was when 70% of the team was <27 years of age. 

Kohli Rohit Jadeja Dhawan,  Ashwin Ishant Boobie were all in their prime even Dhongi baba.

 

The fielding unit alone was the best ever we ever had. 

 

Since then we have oldies galore... 

 

Pakistan followed similar template in 2017 CT & it gave them a title win. 

They learned from 2015 ODI WC,  2016 T20 WC defeat where they had oldies & reaped rewards instantly. 

 

In my view BCCI should try to field a side which is 70-80% under 27 years of age to win a title. 

Age shame  these oldies...  Media hypes up their records & eggsperince & fans need to change their mindset as well. 

 

 

Age problem started probably after 2020. Before that all these players used to be at their peak but still used to shite the bed completely in knockouts. Rohit and Kohli were in monstrous form in white ball cricket from 2015-2019, but failed when it mattered. You could clearly see their body language..Kohli in that 2019 SF against NZ looked like a deer caught in headlights and who can forget his mega feat of getting out twice in two balls against Mo Amir...

 

The problem for the most part was mental. Abject failure in handling the pressure thanks to playing 90% of the games in low pressure bilaterals. 

[Norman]

1 hour ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

No that is not the reason and has got nothing to do with it. Pakistan beaten us T20 WC in 2021 and broken the streak. What changed in next T20 WC? Nothing. We went with the same team and failed again.

 

India don't win ICC events bcoz our players are not good enough. Money cant buy quality and most of our cricketers are overpaid & overhyped. Someone posted yesterday that Saurav Ganguly avgs just 1 run less than Kohli in SENA countries. Ganguly is considered a mediocre test player where as Kohli is supposed to be once in a generation player. So the quality of our cricketers have gone down drastically.

 

 

You didn't get my point looks like.

 

It's not about losing to Pakistan in a single game. It's about getting used to the pressure of games where losing actually means something. And thereby eliminating the fear of defeat.

 

Recently we lost a bilateral series at home to Australia but no-one batted an eye..same to South Africa last year where we were whitewashed 3-0. They knew that noone would care if we lose these useless bilaterals and there are just so many of them that we play. The core of this team has gotten use to a mentality where it's deemed okay to lose a cricket match as long as the "process" is followed and that has crept into the ICC tournaments as well. 

[Norman]

40 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

This combination of players will do nothing in ICC events even if we were playing bilateral against Pak

 

Disagree. Public outrage will be much more if they show this don't care attitude after losing to am arch rival. Kohli is battered to this day even by his fans for laughing like a maniac after getting humiliated in the 2017 final. 

[LordPrabhzy]

5 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

Disagree. Public outrage will be much more if they show this don't care attitude after losing to am arch rival. Kohli is battered to this day even by his fans for laughing like a maniac after getting humiliated in the 2017 final. 

 

okay and has that backlash made an iota of impact in his life? He still gets millions of $ worth of brand deals to this day. 70% of his time is reserved for social media and advertisements. So much for public outrage. The problem is Indian cricket fans are pussios- on one hand they want to have outrage and then straight after going crazy and attending matches, following IPL, creating match threads. Put your money where your mouth is, If you are outraged then truly boycott Indian cricket financially.

 

That will have a bigger impact than the team losing to Pak in matches.

[Norman]

12 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

 

okay and has that backlash made an iota of impact in his life? He still gets millions of $ worth of brand deals to this day. 70% of his time is reserved for social media and advertisements. So much for public outrage. The problem is Indian cricket fans are pussios- on one hand they want to have outrage and then straight after going crazy and attending matches, following IPL, creating match threads. Put your money where your mouth is, If you are outraged then truly boycott Indian cricket financially.

 

That will have a bigger impact than the team losing to Pak in matches.

 

You are going off on a tangent here..

 

This financial boycott is worthless. There is no way a whole demography of about 300-400 million will suddenly just flick a switch and stop following a sport that they've been following their entire lives. It just doesn't work that way.

 

Now the next best thing.. To make the players habituated to an extremely high pressure environment. Now people will say that IPL does carry a lot of pressure but at the end of the day it's a domestic tournament with 3/4th of players barely being international level. So the difficulty is not high. 

 

Only way we can replicate a high pressure and high difficulty situation is by having an India-Pakistan bilateral series. And currently, our players are clearly missing out on that.

[LordPrabhzy]

8 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

You are going off on a tangent here..

 

This financial boycott is worthless. There is no way a whole demography of about 300-400 million will suddenly just flick a switch and stop following a sport that they've been following their entire lives. It just doesn't work that way.

 

Now the next best thing.. To make the players habituated to an extremely high pressure environment. Now people will say that IPL does carry a lot of pressure but at the end of the day it's a domestic tournament with 3/4th of players barely being international level. So the difficulty is not high. 

 

Only way we can replicate a high pressure and high difficulty situation is by having an India-Pakistan bilateral series. And currently, our players are clearly missing out on that.

 

well then dont cry and slit wrists. Indian fans want their cake and want to eat it too. THIS attitude is what is giving the safety net for BCCI to not give a fk about team India's results as they know imbecilic fans will continue to fund them and watch them

[sage]

50 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

 

You didn't get my point looks like.

 

It's not about losing to Pakistan in a single game. It's about getting used to the pressure of games where losing actually means something. And thereby eliminating the fear of defeat.

 

Recently we lost a bilateral series at home to Australia but no-one batted an eye..same to South Africa last year where we were whitewashed 3-0. They knew that noone would care if we lose these useless bilaterals and there are just so many of them that we play. The core of this team has gotten use to a mentality where it's deemed okay to lose a cricket match as long as the "process" is followed and that has crept into the ICC tournaments as well. 

Also you get the churn of players after The Ashes. That's when most Eng/Aus players get kicked out. Same would happen after an Ind-Pak series. 

[Norman]

11 minutes ago, LordPrabhzy said:

 

well then dont cry and slit wrists. Indian fans want their cake and want to eat it too. THIS attitude is what is giving the safety net for BCCI to not give a fk about team India's results as they know imbecilic fans will continue to fund them and watch them

 

So what you're saying is the reason we haven't won anything of note is because....too many people support this team. Hmmm...don't even know what to say to that.

 

And what makes you think BCCI will suddenly do all the right things once everyone shuts down their TV or start watching pogo?

[Norman]

1 minute ago, sage said:

Also you get the churn of players after The Ashes. That's when most Eng/Aus players get kicked out. Same would happen after an Ind-Pak series. 

 

Exactly. We kicked out Gambhir and Sehwag and moved Rohit to the top after the 2013 series. Guys like Dinda too were removed immediately..

[Sandz]

No

[LordPrabhzy]

4 minutes ago, Norman said:

 

So what you're saying is the reason we haven't won anything of note is because....too many people support this team. Hmmm...don't even know what to say to that.

 

And what makes you think BCCI will suddenly do all the right things once everyone shuts down their TV or start watching pogo?

 

No... learn to comprehend.

 

The reason BCCI has financial muscle and made IPL its priority which is affecting our international results is down to FANS and their eyeballs. Once people have had enough and take their eyeballs somewhere else while voicing their displeasure at BCCI, less add revenue, less broadcasting deals, less money for BCCI, less money for IPL. Its all a chain reaction which needs an action at the start to have some long term impact for BCCI to sit up and take notice, to do things differently

[Khota]

No.

[vvvslaxman]

Not really.  A captain should be good enough to get the very best out of every player in his side by having them rallyed behind him. He has to come up with a winning combination , winning formula immediately after entering the tournament.  You should develop a side where someone always put their hand up. Greatest Australian sides have had their share of collapses. But they always put their hand up. They always stepped up in all the areas collectively.  Under Kohli Indian fast bowling unit evolved nicely. You should also thank Bharat Arun. But under same Kohli batting reached nadir.  That trend still continues. Except now our bowling is also not stepping up. India needs a strong leader with strong motivation. Vada pav/KL Rahul/Bumrah they are all poor captains. 

[zen]

Today’s players play under more pressure relatively speaking. India has got into a viscous cycle where every loss in an important game compounds the pressure on the next one. 
 

If India played Pak and it lost, it could further aggravate the situation as we noticed post 1986 where India was not the same team after the last ball 6 by Pakistan at Sharjah. In fact, many cricketers began to shy away from going to Sharjah.

 

With Pakistan, a similar thing happened, when it started losing to India in world cups. Every loss compounded the pressure in the next World Cup game for it. Pakistan finally beat India when India was under the pressure to maintain the streak and Pak was in nothing to lose situation. Additionally, having a new set of players who played with relatively less baggage helped, along with the confidence of beating India in the CT17 final. 
 

So it is a double edged sword. But now since Pak is a relatively weaker side, playing India could help Pak more.