Rank them as all rounders in Tests

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

True. But Shakib started as an all rounder if i am right. Jaddu started as a batsman Then became a bowler in international later became a full fledged all rounder like scoring 100s even big 100s.  Shakib batted mostly at 5 or 6 batting position. Jadeja played a lot of matches at no.8 and no.9. 22 and 11 respectively  Later moved to 7th.  

He was always good bat in FC. Batting position is wrt teams. Jadeja even then could bat at 6-7 for team like BD

[Majestic]

A great player must stood up against the very best team of their generation. Why is Shane Bond rated so high? He has produced spells that has destroyed the Australian batting lineup of early 200s. 

 

If we look at performance of 80s golden quarter vs the GOAT Windies team, Kapil Dev really stood out as the best. In one of the games in 1983 vs Windies, he picked 9 freaking wickets vs the legendary team. Imagine picking 9 out of 10 wickets vs a GOAT team like Windies, that's greatness right there - 

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0966

 

Not only this, he has also picked 8-fers for a couple of times as well where again he was the one who single handedly was carrying Indian bowling and that too vs top teams like Pakistan or against the AB led Aussies at Adelaide.

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0947

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=1032

Edited June 19, 2023 by Majestic

[zen]

I only rate 3 players as ATG world all-rounders:

 

Sobers = best batting AR 

Hadlee = best bowling AR

Imran = best balanced AR 

* Gilchrist = best WK AR (special mention; sometimes I wonder what he would have averaged if he had played as a specialist batsman only)

 

If the above 3 are not available:

 

Kallis  for batting at #3-4 and as 4th seamer

Stokes for batting at #5-6 and as 4th seamer

Procter for bowling and to bat at #7-9

 

Pre-1960 ARs: 

 

Mankad for a balanced spin bowling AR (apart from Mankad not interested in any spin bowling AR at the moment) 

Miller for a relatively balanced pace bowling AR 

 

Other ARs that may interest me esp for national 11s: 

 

Pollock for bowling and to bat at #7-9 

Flintoff for a relatively balanced AR as 3rd-4th seamer & #7-8 batsman

Botham for batting at #6-7 and as 3rd-4th seamer 

Kapil for bowling as 3rd-4th seamer & #8 batsman (Mankad would be there at #7) 

 

Players that can be fitted as ARs: 

 

Marshall who is like a mini-AR (would be in the team as the main strike bowler anyways)

S Waugh for his bowling if required (likely to be in the team at #5 where he has played over 100 tests) 

Akram for his lower-order batting (likely to be in the team if a left-arm pace option is needed) 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

26 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Pollock was ATG bowler but as a bat didnt too much. As an AR he can be called country great only not ATG.

You just deducted his status from bowler to all rounder.

 

Not as good a bat as Botham, Imran, Kapil, Cairns, Flintoff, Jadeja but still better than Hadlee, Ashwin, Vettori. Its a tough call but I would count him as all rounder nevertheless. He batted at 7 very often.

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Majestic said:

You just deducted his status from bowler to all rounder.

 

Not as good a bat as Botham, Imran, Kapil, Cairns, Flintoff, Jadeja but still better than Hadlee, Ashwin, Vettori. Its a tough call but I would count him as all rounder nevertheless. He batted at 7 very often.

he could have batted higher 8 or 9, but SA had too many ARs who were (slightly or much) better bats: Zulu, kallis, mcMillan, cronje (for LOIs)

[zen]

Home and Away stats for the 4 ARs of the 70s-80s: 

 

Imran

 

Home

Batting avg 45

Bowling avg 19

Avg diff 26

 

Away

Batting avg 34

Bowling avg 26 

Avg diff 8

 

Hadlee 

 

Home

Batting avg 29

Bowling avg 23

Avg diff 6

 

Away

Batting avg 25

Bowling avg 22

Avg diff 3

 

Botham 

 

Home

Batting avg 35

Bowling avg 28

Avg diff 7

 

Away

Batting avg 32

Bowling avg 30

Avg diff 2

 

Kapil 

 

Home

Batting avg 37

Bowling avg 26

Avg diff 11

 

Away

Batting avg 26

Bowling avg 33

Avg diff -7   (Kapil is lucky to be tagged in this group in Tests based on mainly "home" performances, and bundling ODIs) 

 

 

PS Proctor did not get to play enough or he could have been closer to Imran & Hadlee. 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by zen

[Lord]

20 hours ago, Majestic said:

You just deducted his status from bowler to all rounder.

 

Not as good a bat as Botham, Imran, Kapil, Cairns, Flintoff, Jadeja but still better than Hadlee, Ashwin, Vettori. Its a tough call but I would count him as all rounder nevertheless. He batted at 7 very often.

Hadlee,Ashwin,Vettori aren't ATG allrounders too. Only ATG bowlers. Not even that for Vettori

 

They won't make the team on batting alone while Kapil,Jaddu,Botham would.

[zen]

56 minutes ago, Lord said:

Hadlee,Ashwin,Vettori aren't ATG allrounders too.

 

FYI, Hadlee improved his batting in the 80s: 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
JF Reid (NZ)	1981-1986	18	29	3	1277	180	49.11	6	2	3
M Amarnath (IND)	1982-1988	43	68	7	2912	138	47.73	9	15	6
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1980-1989	71	112	16	4501	166	46.88	12	22	7
M Azharuddin (IND)	1984-1989	34	51	3	2224	199	46.33	7	9	2
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1980-1987	65	106	9	4475	236*	46.13	12	20	6
MD Crowe (NZ)	1982-1989	45	76	7	3127	188	45.31	10	11	7
JV Coney (NZ)	1980-1987	45	73	14	2303	174*	39.03	3	14	3
SM Patil (IND)	1980-1984	29	47	4	1588	174	36.93	4	7	4
JG Wright (NZ)	1980-1989	56	100	4	3271	141	34.07	7	13	4
RJ Shastri (IND)	1981-1989	69	104	14	3036	142	33.73	8	11	9
K Srikkanth (IND)	1981-1989	39	64	3	1927	123	31.59	2	12	6
BA Edgar (NZ)	1980-1986	33	57	4	1662	161	31.35	2	11	5
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1980-1989	53	80	14	2040	151*	30.90	2	10	7
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1980-1989	80	118	9	3353	163	30.76	5	17	11
Yashpal Sharma (IND)	1980-1983	24	40	7	1015	140	30.75	1	5	2
GP Howarth (NZ)	1980-1985	30	51	2	1491	147	30.42	2	8	3
GR Viswanath (IND)	1980-1983	25	39	1	1135	222	29.86	3	5	4
JJ Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	38	64	4	1592	128	26.53	3	6	6
SMH Kirmani (IND)	1980-1986	49	67	13	1399	102	25.90	1	6	4
IDS Smith (NZ)	1980-1989	49	70	15	1376	113*	25.01	1	5	7

 

If Hadlee had played for India, he would be Ind's best AR by a mile. Note that he was also much older than Kapil. In 1989, Hadlee would have been 37-38, while Kapil, who mostly leveraged at home, would have been 30 (and kept going downhill).  

 

 

Outside of home in the 80s:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
M Amarnath (IND)	1982-1986	20	34	5	1967	138	67.82	8	10	0
SV Manjrekar (IND)	1989-1989	8	13	1	769	218	64.08	3	3	1
SM Patil (IND)	1981-1984	14	23	2	995	174	47.38	3	6	2
JF Reid (NZ)	1984-1985	9	15	0	644	180	42.93	3	1	1
MD Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	25	44	4	1680	188	42.00	4	6	4
AH Jones (NZ)	1987-1988	7	13	0	517	150	39.76	1	2	0
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1981-1986	31	52	4	1825	172	38.02	4	8	3
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1981-1989	35	59	8	1880	157	36.86	3	12	5
JV Coney (NZ)	1980-1986	22	37	6	1043	92	33.64	0	8	1
M Azharuddin (IND)	1985-1989	16	26	2	807	109	33.62	1	5	2
JG Wright (NZ)	1980-1989	29	54	1	1768	119	33.35	2	9	4
RJ Shastri (IND)	1981-1989	32	52	7	1395	139	31.00	4	4	6
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1980-1988	27	45	8	1138	151*	30.75	1	6	3
BA Edgar (NZ)	1980-1986	16	29	1	810	84	28.92	0	9	3
GP Howarth (NZ)	1980-1985	13	24	0	664	84	27.66	0	6	1
K Srikkanth (IND)	1983-1989	15	26	0	708	116	27.23	1	3	2
Yashpal Sharma (IND)	1981-1983	14	24	5	514	63*	27.05	0	3	1
JJ Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	23	39	2	966	120*	26.10	2	4	4
GR Viswanath (IND)	1981-1983	15	24	1	600	114	26.08	1	4	3
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1981-1989	39	60	4	1452	100*	25.92	1	8	7
IDS Smith (NZ)	1980-1989	26	41	6	715	79	20.42	0	3	4
SMH Kirmani (IND)	1981-1986	25	34	3	607	78	19.58	0	3	1
JG Bracewell (NZ)	1980-1988	24	37	7	570	110	19.00	1	2	9

Edited June 20, 2023 by zen

[Lord]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

FYI, Hadlee improved his batting in the 80s: 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
JF Reid (NZ)	1981-1986	18	29	3	1277	180	49.11	6	2	3
M Amarnath (IND)	1982-1988	43	68	7	2912	138	47.73	9	15	6
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1980-1989	71	112	16	4501	166	46.88	12	22	7
M Azharuddin (IND)	1984-1989	34	51	3	2224	199	46.33	7	9	2
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1980-1987	65	106	9	4475	236*	46.13	12	20	6
MD Crowe (NZ)	1982-1989	45	76	7	3127	188	45.31	10	11	7
JV Coney (NZ)	1980-1987	45	73	14	2303	174*	39.03	3	14	3
SM Patil (IND)	1980-1984	29	47	4	1588	174	36.93	4	7	4
JG Wright (NZ)	1980-1989	56	100	4	3271	141	34.07	7	13	4
RJ Shastri (IND)	1981-1989	69	104	14	3036	142	33.73	8	11	9
K Srikkanth (IND)	1981-1989	39	64	3	1927	123	31.59	2	12	6
BA Edgar (NZ)	1980-1986	33	57	4	1662	161	31.35	2	11	5
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1980-1989	53	80	14	2040	151*	30.90	2	10	7
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1980-1989	80	118	9	3353	163	30.76	5	17	11
Yashpal Sharma (IND)	1980-1983	24	40	7	1015	140	30.75	1	5	2
GP Howarth (NZ)	1980-1985	30	51	2	1491	147	30.42	2	8	3
GR Viswanath (IND)	1980-1983	25	39	1	1135	222	29.86	3	5	4
JJ Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	38	64	4	1592	128	26.53	3	6	6
SMH Kirmani (IND)	1980-1986	49	67	13	1399	102	25.90	1	6	4
IDS Smith (NZ)	1980-1989	49	70	15	1376	113*	25.01	1	5	7

 

If Hadlee had played for India, he would be Ind's best AR by a mile. Note that he was also much older than Kapil. In 1989, Hadlee would have been 37-38, while Kapil, who mostly leveraged at home, would have been 30 (and kept going downhill).  

 

 

Outside of home in the 80s:

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
M Amarnath (IND)	1982-1986	20	34	5	1967	138	67.82	8	10	0
SV Manjrekar (IND)	1989-1989	8	13	1	769	218	64.08	3	3	1
SM Patil (IND)	1981-1984	14	23	2	995	174	47.38	3	6	2
JF Reid (NZ)	1984-1985	9	15	0	644	180	42.93	3	1	1
MD Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	25	44	4	1680	188	42.00	4	6	4
AH Jones (NZ)	1987-1988	7	13	0	517	150	39.76	1	2	0
SM Gavaskar (IND)	1981-1986	31	52	4	1825	172	38.02	4	8	3
DB Vengsarkar (IND)	1981-1989	35	59	8	1880	157	36.86	3	12	5
JV Coney (NZ)	1980-1986	22	37	6	1043	92	33.64	0	8	1
M Azharuddin (IND)	1985-1989	16	26	2	807	109	33.62	1	5	2
JG Wright (NZ)	1980-1989	29	54	1	1768	119	33.35	2	9	4
RJ Shastri (IND)	1981-1989	32	52	7	1395	139	31.00	4	4	6
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)	1980-1988	27	45	8	1138	151*	30.75	1	6	3
BA Edgar (NZ)	1980-1986	16	29	1	810	84	28.92	0	9	3
GP Howarth (NZ)	1980-1985	13	24	0	664	84	27.66	0	6	1
K Srikkanth (IND)	1983-1989	15	26	0	708	116	27.23	1	3	2
Yashpal Sharma (IND)	1981-1983	14	24	5	514	63*	27.05	0	3	1
JJ Crowe (NZ)	1983-1989	23	39	2	966	120*	26.10	2	4	4
GR Viswanath (IND)	1981-1983	15	24	1	600	114	26.08	1	4	3
N Kapil Dev (IND)	1981-1989	39	60	4	1452	100*	25.92	1	8	7
IDS Smith (NZ)	1980-1989	26	41	6	715	79	20.42	0	3	4
SMH Kirmani (IND)	1981-1986	25	34	3	607	78	19.58	0	3	1
JG Bracewell (NZ)	1980-1988	24	37	7	570	110	19.00	1	2	9

 

Can't look at fraction of career. Otherwise Kapil was very good for first half of his career.

 

Hadlee scored 2 tons in 86 Tests. Thats too low to be rated as ATG AR. Bowling he definitely was an ATG and much better than Dev

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Can't look at fraction of career. Otherwise Kapil was very good for first half of his career.

 

Hadlee scored 2 tons in 86 Tests. Thats too low to be rated as ATG AR. Bowling he definitely was an ATG and much better than Dev

 

Below are the career stats (as posted in one of the posts above):

 

Hadlee 

 

Home

Batting avg 29

Bowling avg 23

Avg diff 6

 

Away

Batting avg 25

Bowling avg 22

Avg diff 3

 

 

Kapil 

 

Home

Batting avg 37

Bowling avg 26

Avg diff 11

 

Away

Batting avg 26

Bowling avg 33

Avg diff -7   (Kapil is lucky to be tagged in this group in Tests based on mainly "home" performances, and bundling ODIs) 

 

 

If Hadlee batted more in subcon, his batting average could have been similar (if not higher than Kapil's. He has a 151* in SL iirc). 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

Can Pandya take a 9-fer vs this Australia team like Kapil did vs the great Windies in 1983?

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0966

[zen]

These Kapil fanboys have lost their mind ... the more they try, the more they fail 

 

The resort to ad hominem, drag irrelevant players, etc. 

 

In short, act as if social media is their mohalla in India and everyone lives like them

 

 

 

[Majestic]

This thread is about all rounders so while talking about one bowling A/R, the other all rounders from same nation can be used as a reference. For example when talking about Lyon, people will mention the likes of Warne or Todd Murphy. Ofcourse those just posting for the sake of trolling will find it hard to repel back due to lack of effective content. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Majestic

[wazza]

On 6/19/2023 at 12:01 AM, zen said:

It would depend on who can get into an 11. If the bowling attack has Marshall, Ambrose, Hadlee/Imran, & Warne, as the AR option (or one more AR) who can be the 5th bowler: 

Ben Stokes as he is rated among the best players under pressure 

Pollock for his pace bowling or Ian Botham for his batting

 

Shakib or Jadeja if another spinner is needed who can bat a bit 

 

Cairns or Kapil (At this point, would prefer to play someone like Akram as an AR) 

 

 

PS 

 

Undoubtedly its imran khan or kalis. 

[rkt.india]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:31 PM, vvvslaxman said:

Kapil/Botham could walk in purely as a batsman and also purely as a bowler. Shakib can do as well given the team he plays for. He has done it if i reemember. Not sure Jaddu will walk in without one of the bot skills. Pollock was more a bowling all rounder. Ben Stokes is never going to walk in as a bowler alone.

Dont think kapil was good enough purely as a batsman.

[rkt.india]

9 hours ago, Majestic said:

Can Pandya take a 9-fer vs this Australia team like Kapil did vs the great Windies in 1983?

 

http://www.howstat.com/cricket/statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard.asp?MatchCode=0966

Kapil was a bowler first. Pandya is a batsman first whether he is good or not in current cricket is a different discussion.

[rkt.india]

On 6/20/2023 at 1:22 AM, Majestic said:

You just deducted his status from bowler to all rounder.

 

Not as good a bat as Botham, Imran, Kapil, Cairns, Flintoff, Jadeja but still better than Hadlee, Ashwin, Vettori. Its a tough call but I would count him as all rounder nevertheless. He batted at 7 very often.

Ashwin and Pollock are similar batsmen. 

[vvvslaxman]

21 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Dont think kapil was good enough purely as a batsman.

 

He was. He was as good as specialist. In some matches better than them. He was the original bazballer. Probably lost 10 points of average due to that. Very decisive player against both spin and exterme pace.

[Rightarmfast]

Kapil

Botham

Pollock

 

Jadeja

Shakib

 

Purely as an allrounder and a clutch player, for me Kapil aces Botham. Remember, Kapil had the burden of carrying his whole team, Botham had great support. Even otherwise, the longetivity factor comes into play.

Pollock was a great player, however cannot be placed as a pure allrounder for the entirety of his career. He was a great bowler in the first half of his career, and then it just went downhill to a point where he was treated like Joginder Sharma by opposition batsmen.

 

Stats dont tell the whole story. You have to watch a player live and the impact they have. I am afraid, Kapil had huge impact. Imran's stats cannot be taken seriously because- majority of the matches were played in Pakistan where the umpiring was horrible. B- Ball tampering. 

As much respect I have for Imran, his stats in Pakistan and outside have huge difference and one can see it if he/ she does a match by match analysis.

[vvvslaxman]

12 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Kapil

Botham

Pollock

 

Jadeja

Shakib

 

Purely as an allrounder and a clutch player, for me Kapil aces Botham. Remember, Kapil had the burden of carrying his whole team, Botham had great support. Even otherwise, the longetivity factor comes into play.

Pollock was a great player, however cannot be placed as a pure allrounder for the entirety of his career. He was a great bowler in the first half of his career, and then it just went downhill to a point where he was treated like Joginder Sharma by opposition batsmen.

 

Stats dont tell the whole story. You have to watch a player live and the impact they have. I am afraid, Kapil had huge impact. Imran's stats cannot be taken seriously because- majority of the matches were played in Pakistan where the umpiring was horrible. B- Ball tampering. 

As much respect I have for Imran, his stats in Pakistan and outside have huge difference and one can see it if he/ she does a match by match analysis.

 

Sarfraz started this tampering. Imran caught on to it. First 30 tests or so Imran  was averaging 30. Then his average gradually reduced. Rampant ball tampering, extremely biased umpiring.