Indian pace bowling all rounders

[vvvslaxman]

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

and that maybe at the end of his career. walsh was certainly medium fast but not Ambrose. 

 

West Indies had several of them Sylvester clarke from the 70s, Wayne Daniel, Winston Davis, Patrick Patterson were all quicker than some of the elite West Indian fast bowlers who had a great career.   Ambrose did not belong to that league. But he had exceptional skills and used his height to great advantage. He was quick enough at his peak. But never express.

[Suhaan]

Most of the threads are getting derailed

 

 

It's about Indian pace allrounders,upcoming

[vvvslaxman]

32 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Most of the threads are getting derailed

 

 

It's about Indian pace allrounders,upcoming

 

Cupboard is bare.  That is why it gets derailed. All we have are "fake all rounders". not genuine all rounders.  Bawa/Hangarkekar are unproven.

[Adamant]

19 hours ago, wazza said:

Ambrose not medium fast dude. Fast medium...... 

135-140 speed. He is on the faster side. 

Best bowler ever. 

Oh bhai. 

Check the post I quoted. 

That guy was talking about fast bowlers not medium pacers, both fast medium and medium fast are medium pacers. 

 

[Adamant]

13 hours ago, rkt.india said:

and that maybe at the end of his career. walsh was certainly medium fast but not Ambrose. 

What was Ambrose then? 

Express fast or fast? 

At his peak Ambrose was around 140kph, and for the majority of his career he bowled well below that. 

 

Watch some YouTube videos. That might help you. 

[Adamant]

19 hours ago, wazza said:

Kapil dev before knee reconstruction was 135-140. 

For the majority of his career Kapil was below 135 and no I don't agree with you at all, he was bowling early 130s and late 120s even at his best. 

[wazza]

2 hours ago, Adamant said:

For the majority of his career Kapil was below 135 and no I don't agree with you at all, he was bowling early 130s and late 120s even at his best. 

Not 100% sure but hw wasn't late 120s. Definitely over 130 for sure.

[Majestic]

If Kapil Dev would have got breaks in between series like Shami gets, he would have ended with 360 wickets at average of 26.

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

If Kapil Dev would have got breaks in between series like Shami gets, he would have ended with 360 wickets at average of 26.

 

Or if Bumrah had bowled alongside Karsan Ghavri, Dilip doshi, Ravi shastri, Mohinder Amarnath his numbers would have been worse. We under-estimate the importance of support role.   Last 10 years Indian spinners have been holding the forte very strong in India. Seamers just had to focus on overseas tours. Kapil Dev had to do that at home on his own. 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

If Kapil Dev would have got breaks in between series like Shami gets, he would have ended with 360 wickets at average of 26.

If “ifs” and “buts” were pots and pans, there would be no tinkers. 
 

Cricket played was relatively less where even tests had a rest day till the 80s.
 

Kapil did not ask for a break (cricket was manageable in those days) and when he knows that cricketers can ask for a break: 

 

"I think today's game is profession and a professional can always say, 'I don't want to play, 'I can play'," Kapil Dev, who was here last week for an event, told PTI.

 

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/amp/sports/cricket/211117/cricketers-can-take-a-break-if-they-dont-want-to-play-kapil-dev.html

 

 

[Majestic]

1 minute ago, zen said:

If “ifs” and “buts” were pots and pans, there would be no tinkers. 
 

Cricket played was relatively less where even tests had a rest day till the 80s.
 

Kapil did not ask for a break (cricket was manageable in those days) and when he knows that cricketers can ask for a break: 

 

"I think today's game is profession and a professional can always say, 'I don't want to play, 'I can play'," Kapil Dev, who was here last week for an event, told PTI.

 

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/amp/sports/cricket/211117/cricketers-can-take-a-break-if-they-dont-want-to-play-kapil-dev.html

 

 

One must admire the fact that Kapil didn't asked for breaks and played 134 tests as a bowling all rounder in 14 years of his career. Even in Kapil's era, no other pacer/ all rounder played that many tests in 15 years. Imran is the perfect example of the guy skipping matches in between.

 

Nowadays, modern era bowlers( or bowling A/R) can barely play 75 tests in 14 years. Some even get injured after playing 10 tests and decide to leave Tests and focus on LOIs.

[zen]

Just now, Majestic said:

One must admire the fact that Kapil didn't asked for breaks and played 134 tests as a bowling all rounder in 14 years of his career. Even in Kapil's era, no other pacer/ all rounder played that many tests in 15 years. Imran is the perfect example of the guy skipping matches in between.

 

Nowadays, modern era bowlers( or bowling A/R) can barely play 75 tests in 14 years. Some even get injured after playing 10 tests and decide to leave Tests and focus on LOIs.

Taking or not taking a break is not an issue. One needs to give more quality performances too. 
 

Appears as if you are going through Kapil’s stats and finding it difficult to accept that they are relatively poor versus the hype, and therefore, looking for ways to console yourself … Many in the past have done, providing various reasons to themselves, that to eventually realize the futility of it. You will arrive at that destination too (only thing is how much time you would waste before getting there). 
 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Garbage in -> Garbage out 

[Majestic]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

Taking or not taking a break is not an issue. One needs to give more quality performances too. 
 

Appears as if you are going through Kapil’s stats and finding it difficult to accept that they are relatively poor versus the hype, and therefore, looking for ways to console yourself … Many in the past have done, providing various reasons to themselves, that to eventually realize the futility of it. You will arrive at that destination too (only thing is how much time you would waste before getting there). 
 

 

Kapil was quality. 

 

But if you over-exploit quality, it's output will reduce. Considering that, if Kapil played in this era, he would have managed 300 test wickets @26.

 

[zen]

10 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Kapil was quality. 

 

But if you over-exploit quality, it's output will reduce. Considering that, if Kapil played in this era, he would have managed 300 test wickets @26.

 

No one said Kapil is bad (or not quality) only relatively poor!

 

Can’t comment on random #s, which will keep changing based on mood (and that can be done for most cricketers. If a cricketer with a bowling avg of 30 can avg 26 hypothetically, then for some other reason or reasons, a cricketer with a bowling average of 26 can average 22-23 or whatever the mood of one suggesting that says)!

Edited June 23, 2023 by zen

[wazza]

2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Or if Bumrah had bowled alongside Karsan Ghavri, Dilip doshi, Ravi shastri, Mohinder Amarnath his numbers would have been worse. We under-estimate the importance of support role.   Last 10 years Indian spinners have been holding the forte very strong in India. Seamers just had to focus on overseas tours. Kapil Dev had to do that at home on his own. 

Agreed somewhat. @zen

Would imran khan's numbers be as good as it was with the support cast of India had he played for us instead in his heydays? 

I believe it would still be up there amongst the best. People talk about how well imran was supported? Not really. Sarfraz nawaz wasn't a great bowler. He was a good bowler at best. Qadir I accept was quality but India had plenty of quality spinners themselves. 

 

To me imran stands out alone. Just like Hadlee does for nz. We just need to accept the reality that kapil is inferior to both. In saying that, kapil may have been overbowled given there was next to no support for him

 

I do believe he may have averaged around 25 26 with a better support cast but imran and hadlee are still superior bowlers. Batting wise, I would put him above hadlee but not above imran. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

Would imran khan's numbers be as good as it was with the support cast of India had he played for us instead in his heydays? 

 

Like without this support cast?

 

 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, wazza said:

Agreed somewhat. @zen

Would imran khan's numbers be as good as it was with the support cast of India had he played for us instead in his heydays? 

I believe it would still be up there amongst the best. People talk about how well imran was supported? Not really. Sarfraz nawaz wasn't a great bowler. He was a good bowler at best. Qadir I accept was quality but India had plenty of quality spinners themselves. 

 

To me imran stands out alone. Just like Hadlee does for nz. We just need to accept the reality that kapil is inferior to both. In saying that, kapil may have been overbowled given there was next to no support for him

 

I do believe he may have averaged around 25 26 with a better support cast but imran and hadlee are still superior bowlers. Batting wise, I would put him above hadlee but not above imran. 

 

For context, Imran and Hadlee made their debut in 1971 and 1973 respectively iirc w/ Hadlee being slightly more than a year older than Imran, who retired twice iirc once around 1987 and then after the 1992 ODI WC. 

 

Bowling in the 80s, they were already in their 30s. Many cricketers used to retire in their 30s (As I mentioned earlier, there is usually a reason or two for most cricketers to average more than what they should have). 

[Majestic]

16 minutes ago, wazza said:

Agreed somewhat. @zen

Would imran khan's numbers be as good as it was with the support cast of India had he played for us instead in his heydays? 

I believe it would still be up there amongst the best. People talk about how well imran was supported? Not really. Sarfraz nawaz wasn't a great bowler. He was a good bowler at best. Qadir I accept was quality but India had plenty of quality spinners themselves. 

 

To me imran stands out alone. Just like Hadlee does for nz. We just need to accept the reality that kapil is inferior to both. In saying that, kapil may have been overbowled given there was next to no support for him

 

I do believe he may have averaged around 25 26 with a better support cast but imran and hadlee are still superior bowlers. Batting wise, I would put him above hadlee but not above imran. 

Yeah that's the point basically. 

 

Kapil to me was a 26 averaging bowler. In first half, probably a 23 averaging bowler who after '85 became half as good as he was due to knee injury. 

 

Imran and Hadlee are still a level and half superior. Batting wise, Kapil underachieved while Imran overachieved. Kapil should really have averaged 33 atleast. Imran obviously has his batting average inflated by not ours but still a proper all rounder with 6 hundreds.

[vvvslaxman]

21 minutes ago, wazza said:

Agreed somewhat. @zen

Would imran khan's numbers be as good as it was with the support cast of India had he played for us instead in his heydays? 

I believe it would still be up there amongst the best. People talk about how well imran was supported? Not really. Sarfraz nawaz wasn't a great bowler. He was a good bowler at best. Qadir I accept was quality but India had plenty of quality spinners themselves. 

 

To me imran stands out alone. Just like Hadlee does for nz. We just need to accept the reality that kapil is inferior to both. In saying that, kapil may have been overbowled given there was next to no support for him

 

I do believe he may have averaged around 25 26 with a better support cast but imran and hadlee are still superior bowlers. Batting wise, I would put him above hadlee but not above imran. 

 

Imran had soda bottle/ home umpires/plus other soda bottle merchants.  Akram joined him in 1985. Akram started with 10 wicket haul.  Qadir sucked only against India. But did well against other sides. On the Indian side.. i cannot accept Ravi shastri is quality or Dilip Doshi or Yadav or Maninder singh. They were bang average. L siva was the only one who seemed promising. That lasted just 1 test. That's it.