Indian pace bowling all rounders

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

No one needs to give an explanation to a noob like you (it is for those who understand). Keep harping. 

 

Tuck your tail and run away as usual, troll. 

You can put him on ignore list too. 

 

But then don't click on show post option. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, zen said:

 

You don't want to go there as Kapil was a part of a bowling attack featuring Prabhakar, who was known for 

 

 

(they are all involved) 

 

You're right. It's a blurry line. Some did more than others. Many picked the seam. A few mutilated the ball with bottle-caps.

[zen]

17 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

You're right. It's a blurry line. Some did more than others. Many picked the seam. A few mutilated the ball with bottle-caps.

 

Yeah ... I tend to point such out because in India there is a tendency to act as if the country is holier than thou (a facade) and everything unethical is done beyond its borders. So someone like an Imran became an evil cheater while a Kapil (who is involved in ball tempering and accused of match-fixing which is cheating his own country) is a saint who like Atlas is carrying the burden of Indian cricket, which owes to him (when Kapil has milked Indian cricket) ... Imran's better stats become inferior, while Kapil's inferior stats become better ... If we are cricket fans first, we should be able to call a spade a spade (and at least not fool our own selves and that too for what? Kapil? What difference does it make if Kapil is not the best). 

 

Btw, Imran has detailed what he has done iirc ... even people in Pakistan were upset at him for being so open 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by zen

[wazza]

3 hours ago, zen said:

 

Yeah ... I tend to point such out because in India there is a tendency to act as if the country is holier than thou (a facade) and everything unethical is done beyond its borders. So someone like an Imran became an evil cheater while a Kapil (who is involved in ball tempering and accused of match-fixing which is cheating his own country) is a saint who like Atlas is carrying the burden of Indian cricket, which owes to him (when Kapil has milked Indian cricket) ... Imran's better stats become inferior, while Kapil's inferior stats become better ... If we are cricket fans first, we should be able to call a spade a spade (and at least not fool our own selves and that too for what? Kapil? What difference does it make if Kapil is not the best). 

 

Btw, Imran has detailed what he has done iirc ... even people in Pakistan were upset at him for being so open 

 

 

It's a skill difference. Both are great all rounders. Imran is just better in all facets of the game. Hard pill to swallow but irs the truth. 

Sure, kapils numbers could have been 25 26 in a better unit but that's lower than what imran would be. 

 

One underrated bowler who certainly would have excelled in a better unit and possibly averaged close to sub 25 easily would be srinath. I remember him ripping through south africa on a placid track in India. What a bowler. 

[zen]

3 minutes ago, wazza said:

One underrated bowler who certainly would have excelled in a better unit and possibly averaged close to sub 25 easily would be srinath. I remember him ripping through south africa on a placid track in India. What a bowler. 

That spell by Srinath against SA at A’bad in 1996 was memorable. It felt for the 1st time that an Indian fast bowler finally arrived on scene! 
 

But because of how previous generation  of pace bowlers bowled, without much pace, people took time to classify him as fast. 

 

[wazza]

25 minutes ago, zen said:

That spell by Srinath against SA at A’bad in 1996 was memorable. It felt for the 1st time that an Indian fast bowler finally arrived on scene! 
 

But because of how previous generation  of pace bowlers bowled, without much pace, people took time to classify him as fast. 

 

Shaun Pollock said it best. India always had good front line bowlers. Srianth was quality. But the support cast were terrible and that's where india lost to SENA nations away from home..post 2015 up to early 2022 the bowling attack was phenomenal. India's that is but batting has been horrific conversely. Possibly one of our worst units assembled in a long time. Top 6 barring a couple have been awful.

Edited June 23, 2023 by wazza

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, wazza said:

It's a skill difference. Both are great all rounders. Imran is just better in all facets of the game. Hard pill to swallow but irs the truth. 

Sure, kapils numbers could have been 25 26 in a better unit but that's lower than what imran would be. 

 

One underrated bowler who certainly would have excelled in a better unit and possibly averaged close to sub 25 easily would be srinath. I remember him ripping through south africa on a placid track in India. What a bowler. 

 

Imran's average was 30 until that soda bottle merchant Sarfraz taught the trick of lifting the seam around 1980.  Lifting the seam allowed him to move the ball so much coming wide off the crease. Also Pakistan umpires were brutally biased. He had everything going for him for about 7 years or so. Then during 1987 tour of India his slide started.  His reverse swing didn't work in India. Srikkanth plundered him and Qadir. Towards the end of the career he didn't even bowl in several tests. A reason why he managed to protect his 'average". Kapil had no such option.  He was bowling right till the end of his career. Imran khan was more of a bowling all rounder.  Imran's strike rate was roughly 47 in Tests. Kapil dev's 95 in tests.  He was the real counter attacking batsman of the highest class. His 175 is enough proof for his batting calibre. Anyone who thinks Imran is a better batsman is out of their mind. 

[wazza]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Imran's average was 30 until that soda bottle merchant Sarfraz taught the trick of lifting the seam around 1980.  Lifting the seam allowed him to move the ball so much coming wide off the crease. Also Pakistan umpires were brutally biased. He had everything going for him for about 7 years or so. Then during 1987 tour of India his slide started.  His reverse swing didn't work in India. Srikkanth plundered him and Qadir. Towards the end of the career he didn't even bowl in several tests. A reason why he managed to protect his 'average". Kapil had no such option.  He was bowling right till the end of his career. Imran khan was more of a bowling all rounder.  Imran's strike rate was roughly 47 in Tests. Kapil dev's 95 in tests.  He was the real counter attacking batsman of the highest class. His 175 is enough proof for his batting calibre. Anyone who thinks Imran is a better batsman is out of their mind. 

I agree about biased umpires. There is no doubt but we did lose 0 3 to Pakistan at home too? Did we not in that era? 

[vvvslaxman]

19 minutes ago, wazza said:

I agree about biased umpires. There is no doubt but we did lose 0 3 to Pakistan at home too? Did we not in that era? 

No we didn't.  We lost 0-1 in one series thanks to Bangalore pitch.  Won all the other series. Indian bowling was club standard back then bar Kapil dev.

[zen]

53 minutes ago, wazza said:

Shaun Pollock said it best. India always had good front line bowlers. Srianth was quality. But the support cast were terrible and that's where india lost to SENA nations away from home..post 2015 up to early 2022 the bowling attack was phenomenal. India's that is but batting has been horrific conversely. Possibly one of our worst units assembled in a long time. Top 6 barring a couple have been awful.

 

IIRC, Mark Taylor in 1992 had said that Srinath was the fastest (don’t think he said one of the fastest) bowler he had faced. 

[zen]

49 minutes ago, wazza said:

I agree about biased umpires. There is no doubt but we did lose 0 3 to Pakistan at home too? Did we not in that era? 

 

0-1 ... Btw, Imran's overseas record is as good as Kapil's home, which can be questioned too 

 

Home and Away stats for the 4 ARs of the 70s-80s: 

 

Imran

 

Home

Batting avg 45

Bowling avg 19

Avg diff 26

 

Away

Batting avg 34

Bowling avg 26 

Avg diff 8

 

Hadlee 

 

Home

Batting avg 29

Bowling avg 23

Avg diff 6

 

Away

Batting avg 25

Bowling avg 22

Avg diff 3

 

Botham 

 

Home

Batting avg 35

Bowling avg 28

Avg diff 7

 

Away

Batting avg 32

Bowling avg 30

Avg diff 2

 

Kapil 

 

Home

Batting avg 37

Bowling avg 26

Avg diff 11

 

Away

Batting avg 26

Bowling avg 33

Avg diff -7   (Kapil is lucky to be tagged in this group in Tests based on mainly "home" performances, and bundling ODIs) 

[wazza]

33 minutes ago, zen said:

 

IIRC, Mark Taylor in 1992 had said that Srinath was the fastest (don’t think he said one of the fastest) bowler he had faced. 

Could be. He was lightning at one point. I personally put him on par with Donald level speeds as confirmed by Pollock but I can't say he wad the fastest. That would be Hayward, Devon Malcolm in the 90s then srinath and Donald. 

Obviously shoaib came into the picture in early 2000 and took it to another level albeit with a questionable action and steroids. 

 

Siranth had a nasty bouncer which surprised batsmen quite often. 

Wasim even said, if srinath was a tad more aggressive and dint feel sorry for hurting batsmen, he would have been as deadly as Ambrose and himself. 

[wazza]

30 minutes ago, zen said:

 

0-1 ... Btw, Imran's overseas record is as good as Kapil's home, which can be questioned too 

 

Home and Away stats for the 4 ARs of the 70s-80s: 

 

Imran

 

Home

Batting avg 45

Bowling avg 19

Avg diff 26

 

Away

Batting avg 34

Bowling avg 26 

Avg diff 8

 

Hadlee 

 

Home

Batting avg 29

Bowling avg 23

Avg diff 6

 

Away

Batting avg 25

Bowling avg 22

Avg diff 3

 

Botham 

 

Home

Batting avg 35

Bowling avg 28

Avg diff 7

 

Away

Batting avg 32

Bowling avg 30

Avg diff 2

 

Kapil 

 

Home

Batting avg 37

Bowling avg 26

Avg diff 11

 

Away

Batting avg 26

Bowling avg 33

Avg diff -7   (Kapil is lucky to be tagged in this group in Tests based on mainly "home" performances, and bundling ODIs) 

Odi I agree with. Kapil is better but definitely not in tests. I do put hadlee above kapil as well. Botham and kapil are around similar level but I think Botham was the better bowler. 

 

1 0 ah I keep thinking 0 3. Was the series before? We lost 3 0 to Pakistan. But they were thrashings I am pretty sure. Imran destroyed us. 

[zen]

1 minute ago, wazza said:

Could be. He was lightning at one point. I personally put him on par with Donald level speeds as confirmed by Pollock but I can't say he wad the fastest. That would be Hayward, Devon Malcolm in the 90s then srinath and Donald. 

Obviously shoaib came into the picture in early 2000 and took it to another level albeit with a questionable action and steroids. 

 

Siranth had a nasty bouncer which surprised batsmen quite often. 

Wasim even said, if srinath was a tad more aggressive and dint feel sorry for hurting batsmen, he would have been as deadly as Ambrose and himself. 

 

I am not sure if Srinath was the actually fastest (definitely one of the fastest) but I am speaking of what I recall hearing during a game when Mark Taylor was being interviewed. 

[wazza]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

No we didn't.  We lost 0-1 in one series thanks to Bangalore pitch.  Won all the other series. Indian bowling was club standard back then bar Kapil dev.

True. Would you say imran had a better support cast compared to india? I really don't see much of a difference honestly. Being objective here. 

Qadir was not that great

Nawaz? Was never threatening. 

 

When wasim came over yes, that changed things. 

 

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, wazza said:

1 0 ah I keep thinking 0 3. Was the series before? We lost 3 0 to Pakistan. But they were thrashings I am pretty sure. Imran destroyed us. 

 

Yeah, in 82-83, Ind played 6 tests in Pak and lost 0-3. 

[wazza]

3 minutes ago, zen said:

 

I am not sure if Srinath was the actually fastest (definitely one of the fastest) but I am speaking of what I recall hearing during a game when Mark Taylor was being interviewed. 

Mark usually speaks honestly. I don't think he has any need to please indian fans. I believe him when he says that. Oh definitely. 

He was one of the fastest without doubt. 

Just not the fastest though. 

Top 3 top 4 easily. 

Jayasuriya used to fear him. He would club everyone else except him. 

 

Put him in the Indian pace attack post 2015 -2022 and he would wreak havoc alongside bumrah shami ishant etc. 

[vishalvirsingh]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:01 PM, bowl_out said:

Medium pace bowlers who can bat -

 

Tests - Thakur

ODI - Hardik, Vijay Shankar

T20 - Hardik, Dube

T10  - Chahar

 

It would be stupid to bring back Hardik to Tests. Given his injury history, he should just play ODIs and captain the T20 side.

 

 

vijay shankar, rishi and DUBEY bowled at 110K -120K...they can't be termed as PACE ALL ROUNDERS.

 

hardik and SHardul are Test Pace AR.

CHahar can be considered a T20 All rounder. he is not effective with the old ball so probably he cannot be considered as an ODI Pace bowling All-rounder. his fitness is also suspect.

[tweaker]

16 hours ago, vishalvirsingh said:

 

Vjay Shankar can be someone who can bat at position from 3 to 6 and can bowl.some overs after the main bowlers

[crictime]

On 6/20/2023 at 9:01 PM, bowl_out said:

Medium pace bowlers who can bat -

 

Tests - Thakur

ODI - Hardik, Vijay Shankar

T20 - Hardik, Dube

T10  - Chahar

 

It would be stupid to bring back Hardik to Tests. Given his injury history, he should just play ODIs and captain the T20 side.

 

 

Bringing Hardik in test is very futile and the Indian think tank has also probably realized this. Not surprising at all. He lacks the game for the toughest format of cricket. The handful number of tests he has played shows his incapability to take workload of all rounder in test format. He is capable to take the workload of allrounder in T20 format, though he isn't bowling full quota of 4 overs in many T20i matches.