Kulcha vs Kulbi

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

I think there must be others...  I heard about one in Kerala that Steve Smith took few years ago to practice against Kuldeep. 

They don't get opportunity in domestic cricket as they are highly inconsistent & hence never find the spotlight. 

Just like a 150k pacer they require special guidance...  As they are just as rare. 

Kuldeep was spotted early & made it to U19 WC hence he found his way.  Was mediocre in IPL too. 

 

Afghanistan is the new Srilanka when it comes to mystery spinners. I heard 100s of them practicing. It is surprising we are becoming more like Bangladesh manufacturing so many left arm orthodox.

[Lone Wolf]

6 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Afghanistan is the new Srilanka when it comes to mystery spinners. I heard 100s of them practicing. It is surprising we are becoming more like Bangladesh manufacturing so many left arm orthodox.

Becoming hub of Trundlers as well just like Bangladesh lol

[putrevus]

India needs to develop spinners in general who can turn the ball rather than use the pitches in India.

 

There has been no spinner starting from Bishen Bedi to Ashwin who could turn the ball.Most of them depend on pitches doing the job for them.They have been toothless when pitches don't help them.There is no way to sugarcoat it.

 

Now with IPL and teams visiting India frequently, India has already lost the home advantage  in whiteball cricket.Opposing whiteball spinners for most teams are far better than Indian spinners.

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, putrevus said:

India needs to develop spinners in general who can turn the ball rather than use the pitches in India.

 

There has been no spinner starting from Bishen Bedi to Ashwin who could turn the ball.Most of them depend on pitches doing the job for them.They have been toothless when pitches don't help them.There is no way to sugarcoat it.

 

Now with IPL and teams visiting India frequently, India has already lost the home advantage  in whiteball cricket.Opposing whiteball spinners for most teams are far better than Indian spinners.

 

Finger spinners usually need assistance from pitches.

 

Wristies spin it on most surfaces. Which Kuldeep can do..

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, Lord said:

 

Finger spinners usually need assistance from pitches.

 

Wristies spin it on most surfaces. Which Kuldeep can do..

 

That is a well known fact. Vaas and later Nuwan Zoysa had that job. Creating rough outside the right handers off stump.  On hard wickets in Australia Murali failed to make an impact like most of the finger spinners. Even in India Murali struggled on flat wickets. 

[vvvslaxman]

3 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Finger spinners usually need assistance from pitches.

 

Wristies spin it on most surfaces. Which Kuldeep can do..

 

Another reason is Leg spinners simply have far too many varieties. Leg spin, googly, Flipper, slider what not. Off spinner just had Doosra to work with. Later carrom ball. Those balls won't be effective on slowish wickets.

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Finger spinners usually need assistance from pitches.

 

Wristies spin it on most surfaces. Which Kuldeep can do..

Yes and no . A guy like Lyon who can turn the ball more can bowl outside the offstump line bring both edges into equation where as Ashwin has to bowl closer to offstump limiting his options in SENA.

 

Once Lyon understood how to be successful in India, he has turned into match winner even in India where as Ashwin still has not done in Australia.

 

Kuldeep also is not a big turner of the ball.

[Lord]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Yes and no . A guy like Lyon who can turn the ball more can bowl outside the offstump line bring both edges into equation where as Ashwin has to bowl closer to offstump limiting his options in SENA.

 

Once Lyon understood how to be successful in India, he has turned into match winner even in India where as Ashwin still has not done in Australia.

 

Kuldeep also is not a big turner of the ball.

 

Check Ashwin's last 2 series in Aus. Outbowled Lyon comfortably. Lyon still hasn't won any series in India. Even O'Keefe has won them a game here.

 

Its just different bowling styles. Ashwin has far more variations so pays to keep line closer to keep both edges in play.Lyon can easily be played off on non turning tracks.

 

Kuldeep turns it big but is not consistent.

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Check Ashwin's last 2 series in Aus. Outbowled Lyon comfortably. Lyon still hasn't won any series in India. Even O'Keefe has won them a game here.

 

Its just different bowling styles. Ashwin has far more variations so pays to keep line closer to keep both edges in play.Lyon can easily be played off on non turning tracks.

 

Kuldeep turns it big but is not consistent.

Ashwin still avgs 42 in Australia even after as per your assertion two great series without one single 5fers.

 

Lyon has won them matches in England too and has better avg is all SENA countries than Ashwin.It is not by accident he has those stats He also avgs 27 in India which is excellent for any overseas spinner..

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin still avgs 42 in Australia even after as per your assertion two great series without one single 5fers.

 

Lyon has won them matches in England too and has better avg is all SENA countries than Ashwin.It is not by accident he has those stats He also avgs 27 in India which is excellent for any overseas spinner..

 

Ashwin was bad earlier but now has 2 excellent last series in Aus. Clearly difference is pace attack which Lyon always enjoys as support.

 

Lyon couldn't win them series at home v India in 2 tries. Winning some games in England is secondary. Ashwin hasn't even played in England in last few years due to TM's fascination with 4th pacer.

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Ashwin was bad earlier but now has 2 excellent last series in Aus. Clearly difference is pace attack which Lyon always enjoys as support.

 

Lyon couldn't win them series at home v India in 2 tries. Winning some games in England is secondary. Ashwin hasn't even played in England in last few years due to TM's fascination with 4th pacer.

Lyon job is not to win a series in India, one bowler cannot win series.If it was just Ashwin and no other spinner, Ashwin will not be winning any series in India either,

 

 

Not playing Ashwin was right decision  those teams. Ashwin was a never going to be a difference maker.

Edited August 13, 2023 by putrevus

[Lord]

33 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Lyon job is not to win a series in India, one bowler cannot win series.If it was just Ashwin and no other spinner, Ashwin will not be winning any series in India either,

 

 

Not playing Ashwin was right decision  those teams. Ashwin was a never going to be a difference maker.

 

Lyon is the main spinner in India. There is mostly a 2nd spinner like O'Keefe, Murphy,Agar but still he has failed to do the job.

 

Ashwin would have easily done better than 4th seamer we played.

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Lyon job is not to win a series in India, one bowler cannot win series.If it was just Ashwin and no other spinner, Ashwin will not be winning any series in India either,

 

 

Not playing Ashwin was right decision  those teams. Ashwin was a never going to be a difference maker.

 

Lyon didn't exactly do well in Srilanka as well.  Lyon had the luxury of getting persisted even if he fails because he is the only spinner in entire Australia. He never needed to be a good batsman either.  He didn't have to play different formats or IPl as well.  Ashwin on the other hand missed 50% of the SENA matches. Played just one Test in NZ in his entire career. He took 3 wicket sin the one innings he bowled. His only failure is in SA where bowling predominantly helps seamers. You keep saying he would not have been a difference maker with no proof. When did Ashwin bowl to Australia at the oval? He just had a terrific series against Australia. Australia had 5 left handers. Oval is more helpful for spinners. ALso the best wicket taker in WTC final 2021. 

[Gollum]

On 8/13/2023 at 8:11 PM, putrevus said:

Ashwin still avgs 42 in Australia even after as per your assertion two great series without one single 5fers.

 

Lyon has won them matches in England too and has better avg is all SENA countries than Ashwin.It is not by accident he has those stats He also avgs 27 in India which is excellent for any overseas spinner..

Doesn't matter. Fact is Ashwin has outbowled Lyon every single time since the second half of BGT 2014-15. Also Jadeja has outbowled Lyon in last 2 series. Is 5fer a metric, Ashwin has 4 4fers in this period, does 1 extra wicket make all the difference in the world? That's like saying you won't count 80s and 90s, just because a player failed to reach 100. These milestones are overrated, only for noobs. 

 

When has Lyon won them matches in Eng alone? Ashwin gave us the 2018 Edgbaston test on a platter, but batsmen let him down. Lyon also lost them 2 tests in the 2019 Ashes, every bowler has failed at some point of time. More noticeably Lyon failed to close the game twice in the 2020-21 BGT series on day 5 against depleted Indian batting units, this when he had a world class pace battery as support. 

 

I can agree that Lyon is a great bowler, maybe even better than Ashwin. But you are making it sound as if he is Warne or Murali. Why just look at India? Lyon has failed  in UAE, Pak, Lanka, Bangladesh with even Aussie part timers outbowling him a couple of times. The difference (if at all) isn't nearly as big as you are making it out to be. 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Gollum

[vvvslaxman]

Hopefully this is the end of Chahal. Bishnoi will have his downs. But India should back him to evolve. Yes he is predominantly a googly bowler. He can travel from time to time. But he can pick up wickets. He can bat a bit. Other option is Sundar.

[Norman]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Hopefully this is the end of Chahal. Bishnoi will have his downs. But India should back him to evolve. Yes he is predominantly a googly bowler. He can travel from time to time. But he can pick up wickets. He can bat a bit. Other option is Sundar.

 

A good left arm orthodox can really complement someone like Kuldeep so we can go that route too. Sindhu, Manav and that u19 kid Vicky Ostwal can be tried out instead of closing our options only to wrist spinners.

 

Personally don't think Sundar will be a good bowler in any format. He could be used more as a batting all rounder in Tests and ODIs.

[Mariyam]

I got into this thread thinking its about Indian bread types and a comparison of their calorific/ nutritional value etc.

 

Little did I know....

Edited August 15, 2023 by Mariyam

[Frustrated]

Be it KulCha or KulBi....   We are not going to win any tournament unless those two spinners learn to bat.   In LOIs, Every team has quality spinners who can bat.  Pak has Shadab, SL has Hasaranga.   Ban has Mehedi Hasan.  While Ind are the only team whose spinners can't bat.   (Not considering Axar or Jaddu as spinners as they look more like medium pacers/darters.  LOL)

[Vijy]

11 hours ago, Frustrated said:

Be it KulCha or KulBi....   We are not going to win any tournament unless those two spinners learn to bat.   In LOIs, Every team has quality spinners who can bat.  Pak has Shadab, SL has Hasaranga.   Ban has Mehedi Hasan.  While Ind are the only team whose spinners can't bat.   (Not considering Axar or Jaddu as spinners as they look more like medium pacers/darters.  LOL)

chahal couldn't hold a bat to save himself. we have some spin ARs, but they are not ready enough for ODIs: sindhu, abhishek, parag, etc

[tweaker]

Kuldeep should have been in Ireland series with Bishnoi.

 

"BiKul " era could have started after "Kulcha"