Kohli led Indian team's camaraderie with Pakistanis affecting the team's focus and performance?

[Nikhil_cric]

5 minutes ago, the don said:

No thats the myth im trying to address

in the 2000-2010 decade pakistan won 22 odis against India losing 18. So it was 22-18.  Pakistan werent as dominant like in the 90s giving rise to this myth in India. In 2005 they won a 6 match series in india 4-2 with the likes of Rana naved leading the attack

Pakistan was dominant even under Woolmer.  Woolmer was a terrific coach for a team like Pakistan.  There used to be these old Cricinfo pieces on bowling lengths.  

 

Pakistan were traditionally an attack that focussed on attacking the stumps . But that worked better when you had bowlers of sheer speed and tampering was easier.   Woolmer most likely  realised that the stumps line was feeding the Indian batter's strengths and got Rao, Naved and Sami to  bowl more outside off and on a good length where Indian batsmen would get choked.  

 

Except Sehwag on a good day, nobody could hit those lengths.  

 

Only 2006 series onwards did India start to dominate Pakistan in ODIS.   

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Pakistan was dominant even under Woolmer.  Woolmer was a terrific coach for a team like Pakistan.  There used to be these old Cricinfo pieces on bowling lengths.  

 

Pakistan were traditionally an attack that focussed on attacking the stumps . But that worked better when you had bowlers of sheer speed and tampering was easier.   Woolmer most likely  realised that the stumps line was feeding the Indian batter's strengths and got Rao, Naved and Sami to  bowl more outside off and on a good length where Indian batsmen would get choked.  

 

Except Sehwag on a good day, nobody could hit those lengths.  

 

Only 2006 series onwards did India start to dominate Pakistan in ODIS.   

Even now, we have similar issues.  After the break, Shaheen tightened his line and Naseem anyway bowls like that.  The likes of Kohli, Rohit , Gill and KL cannot hit you off a good length or, even more pertinently, when you bowl in the channel consistently. 

 

They rely on width or overpitching, short-pitched deliveries to score runs.  It's ok to leave those in a Test match but a leave/defensive stroke is a win for the bowler in LOI's. 

 

 

[the don]

38 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Pakistan was dominant even under Woolmer.  Woolmer was a terrific coach for a team like Pakistan.  There used to be these old Cricinfo pieces on bowling lengths.  

 

Pakistan were traditionally an attack that focussed on attacking the stumps . But that worked better when you had bowlers of sheer speed and tampering was easier.   Woolmer most likely  realised that the stumps line was feeding the Indian batter's strengths and got Rao, Naved and Sami to  bowl more outside off and on a good length where Indian batsmen would get choked.  

 

Except Sehwag on a good day, nobody could hit those lengths.  

 

Only 2006 series onwards did India start to dominate Pakistan in ODIS.   

Yes Woolmer was way ahead of his time. Relied on data when noone else knew about it. Recognized the talent of Asif etc. 

[wazza]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Even now, we have similar issues.  After the break, Shaheen tightened his line and Naseem anyway bowls like that.  The likes of Kohli, Rohit , Gill and KL cannot hit you off a good length or, even more pertinently, when you bowl in the channel consistently. 

 

They rely on width or overpitching, short-pitched deliveries to score runs.  It's ok to leave those in a Test match but a leave/defensive stroke is a win for the bowler in LOI's. 

 

 

All we need is lefties to counter this guy. We just need to pick right selections. Not jaddu rohit kohlu washed up has beens. 

 

Add Gill who is trash. Better talents are available. 

[singhvivek141]

21 minutes ago, wazza said:

All we need is lefties to counter this guy. We just need to pick right selections. Not jaddu rohit kohlu washed up has beens. 

 

Add Gill who is trash. Better talents are available. 

Jaiswal is best equipped for opening, sure he also has shortcomings but he can handle it with time.

Tilak not so much solid but has immense self confidence, which is always an advantage.

 

Rinku for some reason doesn't seems to have a game against swing, but he has raw power to tonk sixes.

 

There is your no. 1, 4 and no 6 batters. Problem solved.

Edited September 4, 2023 by singhvivek141

[Mesky99]

1 hour ago, the don said:

No thats the myth im trying to address

in the 2000-2010 decade pakistan won 22 odis against India losing 18. So it was 22-18.  Pakistan werent as dominant like in the 90s giving rise to this myth in India. In 2005 they won a 6 match series in india 4-2 with the likes of Rana naved leading the attack

India won three odi series in that period, Pak only 1, two test series wins for India Pak only 1, thou those three matches in 04-05 one champions trophy, jubilee game and Asia cup game Pak won all three, your right India under achieved actually against Pak, it's those t20 victors that kind of give this myth away.

[the don]

11 minutes ago, Mesky99 said:

India won three odi series in that period, Pak only 1, two test series wins for India Pak only 1, thou those three matches in 04-05 one champions trophy, jubilee game and Asia cup game Pak won all three, your right India under achieved actually against Pak, it's those t20 victors that kind of give this myth away.

Two champions trophy games where pak knocked india out 2004 in eng and 2009 in Southafrica. India underachieved in that period because they the likes of shoaib malik and rana navid were winning matches for pak.

[putrevus]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:35 PM, Malcolm Merlyn said:

 

Pakistani and Indian players shared a lot of camaraderie during 80s and 90s, and India lost most of the matches.

 

After 2000 the new bunch of players like Sehwag Ganguly Gambhir etc were not involved in any public display of camaraderie and were openly giving statements against Pakistan. This was the time India kept beating Pakistan most of the time.

 

Now Virat Kohli has started this new public display of friendship and camaraderie with Pakistanis. Others seem to follow his lead.

 

When you are hugging laughing joking with your rivals how are you going to focus on beating them? The intensity will naturally disappear.

 

Now we seem to be chasing the Pakistanis.

 

Pakistanis seem to enjoy when Indians are trapped in this camaraderie and lose focus, while Pakistanis dont lose focus and perform better.

 

I am not even going to go into what message Kohli and co. are sending by having this bonhomie with Pakistanis while the country is at war with them.

 

Look at how Ukrainian and Russian athletes behave with each other.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Why do people want to fight proxy wars thru players.

 

There are playing sports, every Indian fast bowler went to Akram to learn about fast bowling.

 

They are not soldiers, let them play sport, it is not war.

[Sooda]

Nothing to do with that; simply Pak are currently a better LOI side- in part due to key Indian guys only just coming back from Injury but mainly because their pace attack is world class.

Indian and Pak players have always had a good relationship off field. Watched a clip recently of Bhajji saying the same about him, Yuvraj, Afridi and Akhtar. Then go out and play hard to win. 

[SRT_1OO]

12 hours ago, wazza said:

All we need is lefties to counter this guy. We just need to pick right selections. Not jaddu rohit kohlu washed up has beens. 

 

Add Gill who is trash. Better talents are available. 

Says the legend who said SKY will be great in TESTS. If you were a potato you’d be a stupid potato.

[wazza]

20 minutes ago, SRT_1OO said:

Says the legend who said SKY will be great in TESTS. If you were a potato you’d be a stupid potato.

But I never said that though zen boot? 

 

You claims that sky is this world class player who can play in any format. I find him to be a fraud outside t20. Just like you claiming to not be mentally ill.  

[Frustrated]

LMAO!!   This clone account handler is back... We hv a regular poster in @SRT100..   Now this @SRT_1OO The later has been created by someone else exclusively for the sake of trolling.   

[IndianRenegade]

Basically our team has a lot of players at important positions who are just on the twilight of their careers Rohit, Kohli, Shami with diminished ability. And many of the seniors have a mind set that seems indicate they have achieved everything there is to achieve, before every major tournament the excuses are already ready - One game doesn't show what kind of team they are, They have nothing to prove to anyone.... blah blah blah.

 

if being friendly affects the performance, it should impact Pakistan too. When your main players are turning into passengers who can't be removed & there is very little hunger in the team we will fail in pressure games, & KOs. Until a we have a new breed of players who want to make a mark for themselves, we will keep failing.

[Mesky99]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:06 AM, the don said:

Two champions trophy games where pak knocked india out 2004 in eng and 2009 in Southafrica. India underachieved in that period because they the likes of shoaib malik and rana navid were winning matches for pak.

If Rana Naveed was winning matches so was balaji, young raina, Irfan, chawla etc, Asia cup 2010 victory was without Sachin, yuvraj, sreesanth thou you played out of your skin's in 2005 series and the jubilee game, well done.

[putrevus]

7 hours ago, IndianRenegade said:

Basically our team has a lot of players at important positions who are just on the twilight of their careers Rohit, Kohli, Shami with diminished ability. And many of the seniors have a mind set that seems indicate they have achieved everything there is to achieve, before every major tournament the excuses are already ready - One game doesn't show what kind of team they are, They have nothing to prove to anyone.... blah blah blah.

 

if being friendly affects the performance, it should impact Pakistan too. When your main players are turning into passengers who can't be removed & there is very little hunger in the team we will fail in pressure games, & KOs. Until a we have a new breed of players who want to make a mark for themselves, we will keep failing.

 India had with many players in their twilight of their careers in 2011 too.That was India's best batting lineup

 

Sehwag, Sachin, Gambhir, Bhajji, Munaf, Zaheer all of them were on their last legs. They were playing Pakistani team who had nobody in their team

 

They got extremely lucky that bowlers were able to defend 260.

[IndianRenegade]

5 hours ago, putrevus said:

 India had with many players in their twilight of their careers in 2011 too.That was India's best batting lineup

 

Sehwag, Sachin, Gambhir, Bhajji, Munaf, Zaheer all of them were on their last legs. They were playing Pakistani team who had nobody in their team

 

They got extremely lucky that bowlers were able to defend 260.

Sehwag, Sachin, Gambhir were all within the highest top 10 run scorers of 2011 wc, Sachin was the second highest run scorer, one could argue they were at one of their highest points in their careers

 

Based on just ability & form they were more like 2019 Rohit & Dhawan,  we also had prime Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina. Contrast that to our current team, our top order is neither as good as 2019 or even 2011. Our middle order is joke compared to the middle order of Yuvi, Raina & Dhoni.

 

Our 2011 bowling unit wasn't the best but Zaheer was in peak form ending up as the 2nd highest wkt taker, also we had enough part-timers who could help out. We don't know how good Bumrah his contemporary will be after his return from injury.

Current Indian team has issues with KOs in general & its problems are bigger than just winning against Pak.

Edited September 5, 2023 by IndianRenegade

[singhvivek141]

15 hours ago, putrevus said:

 India had with many players in their twilight of their careers in 2011 too.That was India's best batting lineup

 

Sehwag, Sachin, Gambhir, Bhajji, Munaf, Zaheer all of them were on their last legs. They were playing Pakistani team who had nobody in their team

 

They got extremely lucky that bowlers were able to defend 260.

We had those bowlers, who knew how to choke the batters.

Pakistani batters, when under pressure resort to slogging with no power and timing whatsoever.

 

Plus, more than Zak..I think it was Nehra and Munaf who did all the damage. Nehra redeemed himself after that brainfade vs Robin Pietersen and bowled an extremely economical spell and took 2 wickets. 

 

In our batting, I think only Sachin and Sehwag were in 30's..Yuvi, MS, Gambhir all were 29-30 and were in prime fitness. Yuvi was exceptional considering he fought cancer during the tournament. 

[Adamant]

On 9/5/2023 at 2:44 AM, SRT_1OO said:

Says the legend who said SKY will be great in TESTS. If you were a potato you’d be a stupid potato.

I have said many times. 

 

His opinions change faster than a hooker unbuttons her top. 

 

@wazza  Naam change karne se dimaag change nahi hota.

 

[putrevus]

16 hours ago, IndianRenegade said:

Sehwag, Sachin, Gambhir were all within the highest top 10 run scorers of 2011 wc, Sachin was the second highest run scorer, one could argue they were at one of their highest points in their careers

 

Based on just ability & form they were more like 2019 Rohit & Dhawan,  we also had prime Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina. Contrast that to our current team, our top order is neither as good as 2019 or even 2011. Our middle order is joke compared to the middle order of Yuvi, Raina & Dhoni.

 

Our 2011 bowling unit wasn't the best but Zaheer was in peak form ending up as the 2nd highest wkt taker, also we had enough part-timers who could help out. We don't know how good Bumrah his contemporary will be after his return from injury.

Current Indian team has issues with KOs in general & its problems are bigger than just winning against Pak.

Rohit led the run scores in 2019 and Kohli was in top eleven or 12. Dhawan injury played a big role in India' exit.

 

If Dhoni was not a fraud in 2019 then India was winning world cup, it did not need anyone else like Yuvraj.

 

Problem is Dhoni was carried to finals by other team members in 2011.

 

Rohit , Gill and Kohli could still be leading run getters in 2023. 

 

 

Bumrah is the key he has been a no show in cruicial matches. You don't need middle order to be great to win world cup.

 

 

[putrevus]

7 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

We had those bowlers, who knew how to choke the batters.

Pakistani batters, when under pressure resort to slogging with no power and timing whatsoever.

 

Plus, more than Zak..I think it was Nehra and Munaf who did all the damage. Nehra redeemed himself after that brainfade vs Robin Pietersen and bowled an extremely economical spell and took 2 wickets. 

 

In our batting, I think only Sachin and Sehwag were in 30's..Yuvi, MS, Gambhir all were 29-30 and were in prime fitness. Yuvi was exceptional considering he fought cancer during the tournament. 

Zak was the architect along with Yuvi.Zak was getting wickets every time he came to bowl.

 

Bumrah has to lead bowlers and he has to show up

 

Rohit was leading run getter in 2019 and India again topped the group and lost fewest matches in 2019 but not won anything.