Major terror attack underway in Gaza Strip

[BacktoCricaddict]

I've spent more time reading about this conflict than on almost anything outside of my work activities over the past week. And it is truly depressing.

 

Not only is the immediate tragedy that has unfolded depressing, but the overall inability of people to get past an all-or-none perspective is also depressing for the future.

 

The inability to understand that condemning Hamas' evil act does not automatically mean endorsing forced Israeli occupation. Condemning Hamas' evil act does not automatically mean condemning Palestinian civilians. Condemning Israel's forced occupation does not mean endorsing Hamas.

 

Maybe I am just old but it is certainly depressing to see a lack of introspection into the actions of your own group/tribe/cause and call them out when it is necessary. And how often calling these actions out is perceived as treason/lack of patriotism etc.

 

Perhaps, these attitudes have always been there (and "leaders" take advantage of them), but they seem to precipitate during such tragic moments.

[bharathh]

19 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Way too many people invested in this cause in India. And going out of their way to show cringeworthy support to Zionists and Israel on Twitter etc. 

 

It is a brutal expansionist state that is based on theological and racial supremacism .  And Hamas are terrorists .

 

We should continue to support the Palestinian cause because it's absolutely a cause a post colonial nation should support from a moral standpoint .

 

However, having trade and other bilateral relations with Israel is absolutely crucial .

 

This is not our fight at all and we should just let things unfold as they would. 

 

Just call for peace and diplomacy instead of taking sides.

 

 

Untrue. 20% of the Israeli population is Muslim Arab. The Israeli state is open for all Jews from any part of the world - in fact they spent considerable manpower to find and airlift the black jews of Ethiopia from the middle of a war zone (Operation Solomon). Please spare us secular bull. 

 

I see you don't see any of your secular and Islamist bros going out of the way to "Save or Free Palestine"? 

 

Only thing I agree with you is that this is not our fight. However, I am proud that our PM has unequivocally supported Israel.

[ravishingravi]

Very important piece. Why did they do what they did ?

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

1 minute ago, bharathh said:

 

Untrue. 20% of the Israeli population is Muslim Arab. The Israeli state is open for all Jews from any part of the world - in fact they spent considerable manpower to find and airlift the black jews of Ethiopia from the middle of a war zone (Operation Solomon). Please spare us secular bull. 

 

I see you don't see any of your secular and Islamist bros going out of the way to "Save or Free Palestine"? 

 

Only thing I agree with you is that this is not our fight. However, I am proud that our PM has unequivocally supported Israel.

Sorry it's not secular bull . When vast numbers of European Jews who have no right to a particular piece of land can immigrate and displace local populations and dominate them , that's settler colonialism - AUS, NZ, Canada , US .  

 

[bharathh]

3 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Sorry it's not secular bull . When vast numbers of European Jews who have no right to a particular piece of land can immigrate and displace local populations and dominate them , that's settler colonialism - AUS, NZ, Canada , US .  

 

 

Who are you to decide who has right to the land or not? And what right do Arabs have to the land? They are also invaders. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

Who are you to decide who has right to the land or not? And what right do Arabs have to the land? They are also invaders. 

Everybody's history stops where it is convenient for them.

[bharathh]

4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Everybody's history stops where it is convenient for them.

 

Exactly.

[wanted_desi]

There seems to something fishy how Mossad missed the entire operation and how slow the response was. 

[bharathh]

1 minute ago, wanted_desi said:

There seems to something fishy how Mossad missed the entire operation and how slow the response was. 

 

There will def be multiple high profile resignations and arrests for sure once the dust settles. Netanyahu for one may as well retire after this. 

[coffee_rules]

14 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Sorry it's not secular bull . When vast numbers of European Jews who have no right to a particular piece of land can immigrate and displace local populations and dominate them , that's settler colonialism - AUS, NZ, Canada , US .  

 

Indians have a say in this because India is a victim of terrorism and separatist ideologies that feel they are superior and want to live separately. Indians empathize with terrorism survivors when they see people mercilessly slaughtered like it happened on 26/11. We saw Islamists raiding Hindu homes to rape women, kill all men in Kashmir. India speaks out of horrid experiences they have gone through . Now there is relative peace doesn’t mean , it won’t happen here again.

 

Jewish tribes lived in Arabia since 1500 BCE and till as late as 700 AD when Mohammed genocided them. They keep living in Syria, Jordon, Lebanon, Israel since biblical times. Even Jesus was a Jew living Bethlehem/Jerusalem hills Early settlers during Ottoman  control and later during Brit control , all bought lands from Palestine people. There were more Jews in Israel by 1945 than Arabs . They happily sold their farms legally. Only the formation of a Jewish state was resiste and not liked by Arabs while they were living amongst Jews. . It is not colonialism if the original tribes settle back peacefully. Your negation of history and calling them Zionist expansionist is reading of a Left and Arab narrative 

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I've spent more time reading about this conflict than on almost anything outside of my work activities over the past week. And it is truly depressing.

 

Not only is the immediate tragedy that has unfolded depressing, but the overall inability of people to get past an all-or-none perspective is also depressing for the future.

 

The inability to understand that condemning Hamas' evil act does not automatically mean endorsing forced Israeli occupation. Condemning Hamas' evil act does not automatically mean condemning Palestinian civilians. Condemning Israel's forced occupation does not mean endorsing Hamas.

 

Maybe I am just old but it is certainly depressing to see a lack of introspection into the actions of your own group/tribe/cause and call them out when it is necessary. And how often calling these actions out is perceived as treason/lack of patriotism etc.

 

Perhaps, these attitudes have always been there (and "leaders" take advantage of them), but they seem to precipitate during such tragic moments.

West , especially Dems and Liberal Left Intellectuals in Academia, public discourse has changed in the last 15 years. AOC, Ilhan Omar are as mainstream for Dems as it can get. Even Bernie spoke against A370 and called India occupying Kashmir. They have no knowledge of history or ground reality, just echo what they hear in their chambers. Look at this jlunatic, says she's not an expert in geoPoliics, but uses Hamas Jargon blatantly. It seems like there is no difference between Hamas speak and these people now.

 

 

Remember when AOC repeated Hamas talking points that Israel was “occupying” Palestine? pic.twitter.com/tbU2WFnEyu

— Benny Johnson (@bennyjohnson) October 10, 2023

[diga]

1 hour ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Sorry it's not secular bull . When vast numbers of European Jews who have no right to a particular piece of land can immigrate and displace local populations and dominate them , that's settler colonialism - AUS, NZ, Canada , US .  

 

Isnt the same happening due to north - south India migration?

[Nikhil_cric]

29 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Indians have a say in this because India is a victim of terrorism and separatist ideologies that feel they are superior and want to live separately. Indians empathize with terrorism survivors when they see people mercilessly slaughtered like it happened on 26/11. We saw Islamists raiding Hindu homes to rape women, kill all men in Kashmir. India speaks out of horrid experiences they have gone through . Now there is relative peace doesn’t mean , it won’t happen here again.

 

Jewish tribes lived in Arabia since 1500 BCE and till as late as 700 AD when Mohammed genocided them. They keep living in Syria, Jordon, Lebanon, Israel since biblical times. Even Jesus was a Jew living Bethlehem/Jerusalem hills Early settlers during Ottoman  control and later during Brit control , all bought lands from Palestine people. There were more Jews in Israel by 1945 than Arabs . They happily sold their farms legally. Only the formation of a Jewish state was resiste and not liked by Arabs while they were living amongst Jews. . It is not colonialism if the original tribes settle back peacefully. Your negation of history and calling them Zionist expansionist is reading of a Left and Arab narrative 

Actually there is no evidence of any of that except in the Bible itself. Unless you want to use the Bible itself as a source of history which is nothing but fables mostly. 

 

Judaism only crystallised in the 5yh century BCE.  The entire region was polytheistic.   Even the many names for Yahweh were initially worshipped as separate deities not as synonyms for one deity.

 

And we know for instance that pork was consumed heavily in that region from animal remains and that is definitely not Kosher.

 

Those dietary norms only came into being around 5th century BC. 

 

There is no negationism here because you have taken the position of a Biblical maximalist in the first place and simply assumed it to be history with no archaeological evidence supporting any of the assertions in the Old Testament .

 

And no, after the Balfour Declaration in 1917,  the British helped bring around 500,000 Jews over a period of 30 years .

 

Even after this massive immigration from Europe , only around 630,000 Jews were present in Palestine compared to 1.2 million Arabs .

 

In other words, they were never a majority even after the various Aaliyahs and certainly not before that. 

 

They were not even a tenth of the population before the British started bringing European Jews to the region 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 minutes ago, diga said:

Isnt the same happening due to north - south India migration?

How is it even close to being the same?  The movement of people in the Republic of India is not only constitutional and willingly given  but there is a quid pro quo in that there is South -North migration as well. 

 

Palestinians never agreed to this ridiculous levels of immigration to their homeland . The British forced it on them as a colonial power  and then wanted the creation of a Jewish state based on a 2000 year old supposed history. 

 

Was there any reciprocity in terms of population exchange where Palestinians were allowed to claim citizens' rights and land rights in Europe ?

 

 

[bharathh]

11 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Actually there is no evidence of any of that except in the Bible itself. Unless you want to use the Bible itself as a source of history which is nothing but fables mostly. 

 

Judaism only crystallised in the 5yh century BCE.  The entire region was polytheistic.   Even the many names for Yahweh were initially worshipped as separate deities not as synonyms for one deity.

 

And we know for instance that pork was consumed heavily in that region from animal remains and that is definitely not Kosher.

 

Those dietary norms only came into being around 5th century BC. 

 

There is no negationism here because you have taken the position of a Biblical maximalist in the first place and simply assumed it to be history with no archaeological evidence supporting any of the assertions in the Old Testament .

 

And no, after the Balfour Declaration in 1917,  the British helped bring around 500,000 Jews over a period of 30 years .

 

Even after this massive immigration from Europe , only around 630,000 Jews were present in Palestine compared to 1.2 million Arabs .

 

In other words, they were never a majority even after the various Aaliyahs and certainly not before that. 

 

They were not even a tenth of the population before the British started bringing European Jews to the region 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source for information please. 

 

I see you ignored the fact that the Arabs were also invaders as well. 

[bharathh]

13 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Actually there is no evidence of any of that except in the Bible itself. Unless you want to use the Bible itself as a source of history which is nothing but fables mostly. 

 

Judaism only crystallised in the 5yh century BCE.  The entire region was polytheistic.   Even the many names for Yahweh were initially worshipped as separate deities not as synonyms for one deity.

 

And we know for instance that pork was consumed heavily in that region from animal remains and that is definitely not Kosher.

 

Those dietary norms only came into being around 5th century BC. 

 

There is no negationism here because you have taken the position of a Biblical maximalist in the first place and simply assumed it to be history with no archaeological evidence supporting any of the assertions in the Old Testament .

 

And no, after the Balfour Declaration in 1917,  the British helped bring around 500,000 Jews over a period of 30 years .

 

Even after this massive immigration from Europe , only around 630,000 Jews were present in Palestine compared to 1.2 million Arabs .

 

In other words, they were never a majority even after the various Aaliyahs and certainly not before that. 

 

They were not even a tenth of the population before the British started bringing European Jews to the region 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, talking about 2000 year old stories. You also ignored the fact that the Jews from Arabia were kicked out by Mohammed during his march to Mecca and Medina. 

 

Do you know why Jerusalem is sacred to the Muslims? Because Muhammed apparently rode on a winged horse to Jerusalem and deemed it to be sacred. That is the basis of Islam's claim to Palestine. 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

2 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

Source for information please. 

 

I see you ignored the fact that the Arabs were also invaders as well. 

The Arabs were invaders in 700 AD. 1200 years of history passed before Jewish migration to Israel started . You can't right supposed wrongs from that long ago and justify it morally .

 

Also , Israelites were pretty much Arabs - Jesus spoke Aramaic which is pretty much as close to Arabic as one gets.

 

The entire Arabian peninsula had polytheists , Jews, Manichaens, Nestorian Christians etc.  during the 7th century before the Arab empire emerged .  

 

There is no such sharp distinction as you're implying .  

 

There were back and forth invasions between Persians and the Byzantines and Israel was always under one of them or a tributary to them .

 

Then it came under the control of the Arab empire which was actually closer to the Israelites in culture and traditions than the Byzantines or the Persians. 

 

 

 

[bharathh]

Just now, Nikhil_cric said:

The Arabs were invaders in 700 AD. 1200 years of history passed before Jewish migration to Israel started . You can't right supposed wrongs from that long ago and justify it morally .

 

Also , Israelites were pretty much Arabs - Jesus spoke Aramaic which is pretty much as close to Arabic as one gets.

 

The entire Arabian peninsula had polytheists , Jews, Manichaens, Nestorian Christians etc.  during the 7th century before the Arab empire emerged .  

 

There is no such sharp distinction as you're implying .  

 

There were back and forth invasions between Persians and the Byzantines and Israel was always under one of them or a tributary to them .

 

Then it came under the control of the Arab empire which was actually closer to the Israelites in culture and traditions than the Byzantines or the Persians. 

 

 

 

 

 

So the land doesn't belong to them either. What rule are you using for how long before it becomes yours? Also source for whatever you are saying as well. Aramaic has nothing to do with Arabic. That's like saying Hindi is like Pali 

 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

5 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

 

So the land doesn't belong to them either. What rule are you using for how long before it becomes yours? Also source for whatever you are saying as well. Aramaic has nothing to do with Arabic. That's like saying Hindi is like Pali 

 

 

Ok. 

[randomGuy]

18 minutes ago, bharathh said:

 

Also, talking about 2000 year old stories. You also ignored the fact that the Jews from Arabia were kicked out by Mohammed during his march to Mecca and Medina. 

 

Do you know why Jerusalem is sacred to the Muslims? Because Muhammed apparently rode on a winged horse to Jerusalem and deemed it to be sacred. That is the basis of Islam's claim to Palestine. 

 

 

Also following 2 factors

1. Might is right. Jews are stronger militarily, economically, more resourceful, intelligent. Palestinian have to compromise against their mightier opponent, take whatever is offered. They lost in wars.

2. Jews have the moral authority in this situation. A Muslim can and does live safely in Israel whereas a Jew can not live in places like Gaza, Pakistan, Iran etc. Some people supporting Palestinian cause, imagine being a jew and living in any middle eastern country.