Performances of Indian spinners

[Nikhil_cric]

Have got separate threads for fast bowlers and even medium pacers .

 

So, let's keep this just to evaluate the performances of Indian spinners. 

 

 

[R!TTER]

Ashwin's been below par, Axar's been pathetic, Kuldeep had an okayish game - but we really need the batters to step up here! Eng are playing easily the worst bowling lineup I've seen for a top 5 test team here in the last 50 odd years, only Packer weakened sides had it worse 

Edited February 5, 2024 by R!TTER

[Nikhil_cric]

Will start with this 2nd Test.

 

 

Ashwin 

 

1st innings

 

63.9 % deliveries on a good length

 

2nd innings

 

85.2 % on a good length.

 

 

He was bowling too full earlier and was getting smacked.

 

Much better bowling in the 2nd innings. 

 

If we are NOT going to make turners,  our spinners have to be very accurate for long periods of time 

[Nikhil_cric]

Indian spinners data from Day 2

 

Ashwin

3.0 degrees of turn, 2.1 degrees of drift, 86.6 kph

 

Kuldeep

3.2 degrees turn, 1.7 degrees of drift, 82.4 kph

 

Axar

2.6 degrees of turn , 2.0 degrees of drift, 93.3 kph

 

 

Indian spinners data from Day 4

 

Ashwin

3.2 degrees of turn, 2.6 degrees of drift, 87.2 kph

 

Kuldeep

3.0 degrees of turn, 1.8 degrees of drift, 82.4 kph

 

Axar

2.2 degrees of turn , 2.2 degrees of drift, 94 kph. 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Jadeja/Ashwin combo is still the best we have. Kuldeep as a third spinner. Possibly the best combo. Ashwin is getting older. But he is still the go to man for us . Real weak area is batting and second seamer option. Shami/Umesh bankable seamers in indian conditions. Even Siraj can strike with new ball. But panauti Rahul Dravid for some reason play Mukesh in every format.

[Nikhil_cric]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Jadeja/Ashwin combo is still the best we have. Kuldeep as a third spinner. Possibly the best combo. Ashwin is getting older. But he is still the go to man for us . Real weak area is batting and second seamer option. Shami/Umesh bankable seamers in indian conditions. Even Siraj can strike with new ball. But panauti Rahul Dravid for some reason play Mukesh in every format.

 

Throughout 2022 and 2023, Ashwin was exceptional on Indian wickets.   

 

But he was bowling, on average, only 13 % of his deliveries fuller than a good length. 

 

He was bowling terribly in the first innings of this Test match, with more than 30 % being full. Pulled his lengths back in the 2nd innings though .

 

The spin bowling has been impressive only in patches. 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

Ashwin is looking older and unfit...his fitness is on steep decline and I don't see him lasting more than a year. 

 

Jadeja is also 35/36 and by next 2 years he will also be past his prime age. 

 

Kuldeep is still 29 so now he should be elevated as the primary spinner as he can easily play for next 5-6 years.

 

Axar & Sundar offers more or less same capability. But both of them aren't capable enough to play as bowler alone.

 

Manav Suthar & Sai Kishore are 2 of the best spinners in domestic circuits, they are tall and can bat as well. Likes of Saurabh, Shams have good numbers but they're very short in height. Sindhu is a curious case as he seems to me a good spinner with very strong batting skill.

 

Off spinners is where we're struggling, except Pulkit Narang & Saransh Jain..we don't have too many options atleast for now (and the names above aren't very great).

[Naveed12]

India’s first-ever Test series win in New Zealand and memorable series wins in England came between 1967 and 1971 with some remarkable performances from the famous spin quartet.

Over the years, India have produced some of the legendary names in spin bowling. Leg-spinner Anil Kumble is regarded as one of the best bowlers to have played the sport. Harbhajan Singh turned out to be a match-winner for India for more than a decade. R Ashwin is among the modern-day masters of the game. Ravindra Jadeja’s ascendancy to one of India’s best spinners has been crucial to their success in the longest format of the game.

When it comes to assessing the match-winning impact of spinners, their away performances is a key attribute. On subcontinent pitches, Indian spinners have made light work of opposition batsmen, more often than not.

While it is nearly impossible to compare the impact that these top-quality Indian spinners have had over the years, considering the evolution in quality of pitches, size of bats and technique of batsmen among other factors, numbers can give us a picture of their impact to the side in their respective eras.

Indiatoday.in looks at how big names in India’s famous spin department have performed in overseas conditions over the years.

[Lone Wolf]

One technical change I like to see from Kuldeep is...  Bowl more outside off stump with his Chinaman. 

Markaram Dismissal in WC & Sadeera in Asia Cup were classic to watch. 

He is attacking stumps too much like Rashid Khan which is making batters easier to defend against @Nikhil_cric

 

Ashwin has a similar problem for long too...  Too much leg sidish unlike Lyon or Swann

Edited February 6, 2024 by Lone Wolf

[Nikhil_cric]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Ashwin is looking older and unfit...his fitness is on steep decline and I don't see him lasting more than a year. 

 

Jadeja is also 35/36 and by next 2 years he will also be past his prime age. 

 

Kuldeep is still 29 so now he should be elevated as the primary spinner as he can easily play for next 5-6 years.

 

Axar & Sundar offers more or less same capability. But both of them aren't capable enough to play as bowler alone.

 

Manav Suthar & Sai Kishore are 2 of the best spinners in domestic circuits, they are tall and can bat as well. Likes of Saurabh, Shams have good numbers but they're very short in height. Sindhu is a curious case as he seems to me a good spinner with very strong batting skill.

 

Off spinners is where we're struggling, except Pulkit Narang & Saransh Jain..we don't have too many options atleast for now (and the names above aren't very great).

 

7 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

One technical change I like to see from Kuldeep is...  Bowl more outside off stump with his Chinaman. 

Markaram Dismissal in WC & Sadeera in Asia Cup were classic to watch. 

He is attacking stumps too much like Rashid Khan which is making batters easier to defend against @Nikhil_cric

 

Ashwin has a similar problem for long too...  Too much leg sidish unlike Lyon or Swann

 

He may be in decline but replacing Ashwin will be a nightmare.

 

Also, we are overrating Kuldeep Yadav a lot.  In fact, wrist spinners are overrated in Test cricket and especially in India. 

 

Look at the numbers I've posted for turn, drift and pace

 

Ashwin gets as much spin , more drift and is about 4-5 kph quicker than Kuldeep while doing so. 

 

Also his control over length in the 2nd innings is something wristspinners simply cannot replicate.

 

And all this despite the fact that Ashwin is 37 and is in decline! 

 

Let's not even factor in batting where Kuldeep can never match Ashwin. 

 

We need to invest in finger spin allrounders. 

 

They are more valuable than wrist spinners. 

[Lone Wolf]

4 minutes ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

 

He may be in decline but replacing Ashwin will be a nightmare.

 

Also, we are overrating Kuldeep Yadav a lot.  In fact, wrist spinners are overrated in Test cricket and especially in India. 

 

Look at the numbers I've posted for turn, drift and pace

 

Ashwin gets as much spin , more drift and is about 4-5 kph quicker than Kuldeep while doing so. 

 

Also his control over length in the 2nd innings is something wristspinners simply cannot replicate.

 

And all this despite the fact that Ashwin is 37 and is in decline! 

 

Let's not even factor in batting where Kuldeep can never match Ashwin. 

 

We need to invest in finger spin allrounders. 

 

They are more valuable than wrist spinners. 

Thing with Kuldeep is picking his line & when on song he gets that zip too.  Chinaman are rare & can't club them with other wristies. 

Rehan bowled decently too.  So on flattish pitch Kuldeep  has kinda more upisde still. 

There is lot of scope of improvement.  He is not bringing slips into play vs RHB. 

 

India lacks a spin bowling coach imo. 

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Just now, Lone Wolf said:

Thing with Kuldeep is picking his line & when on song he gets that zip too.  Chinaman are rare & can't club them with other wristies. 

Rehan bowled decently too.  So on flattish pitch Kuldeep  has kinda more upisde still. 

There is lot of scope of improvement.  He is not bringing slips into play vs RHB. 

 

India lacks a spin bowling coach imo. 

 

 

That zip is not seen in the numbers at any rate.   Neither in the drift or the pace indicates that he puts significantly more revs than a finger spinner.

 

Rehan has also found less turn , despite being slower , than English finger spinners .

 

 

[sensible-indian]

11 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

Indian spinners data from Day 2

 

Ashwin

3.0 degrees of turn, 2.1 degrees of drift, 86.6 kph

 

Kuldeep

3.2 degrees turn, 1.7 degrees of drift, 82.4 kph

 

Axar

2.6 degrees of turn , 2.0 degrees of drift, 93.3 kph

 

 

Indian spinners data from Day 4

 

Ashwin

3.2 degrees of turn, 2.6 degrees of drift, 87.2 kph

 

Kuldeep

3.0 degrees of turn, 1.8 degrees of drift, 82.4 kph

 

Axar

2.2 degrees of turn , 2.2 degrees of drift, 94 kph. 

 

 

 

Where do you get this data?

 

I wish we also had data on revs per minute...

[Nikhil_cric]

44 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

Where do you get this data?

 

I wish we also had data on revs per minute...

Kartikeya Date's substack .

 

CricketingView on Twitter. 

[Number]

Nice data.

Kuldeep needs to bowl faster in high 80s or early 90s to be successful in India. Wrist spinners who have been successful in India have bowled at higher speeds like Kumble.

Even Rehan looked more threatening than him because of the speeds he bowled. 

 

[singhvivek141]

3 hours ago, Nikhil_cric said:

 

 

He may be in decline but replacing Ashwin will be a nightmare.

 

Also, we are overrating Kuldeep Yadav a lot.  In fact, wrist spinners are overrated in Test cricket and especially in India. 

 

Look at the numbers I've posted for turn, drift and pace

 

Ashwin gets as much spin , more drift and is about 4-5 kph quicker than Kuldeep while doing so. 

 

Also his control over length in the 2nd innings is something wristspinners simply cannot replicate.

 

And all this despite the fact that Ashwin is 37 and is in decline! 

 

Let's not even factor in batting where Kuldeep can never match Ashwin. 

 

We need to invest in finger spin allrounders. 

 

They are more valuable than wrist spinners. 

Ashwin is also more experienced.

We are lacking in the right arm offspin department in the domestics...all we have is left arm orthodox or leg spin. Our best offspinner in domestic we have at the moment is Jalaj Saxena who is already 37...

 

Finger spinners generally has more control, but they also depend a lot on the pitch. If the pitch is hard and offers no grip, fingers spinners can be easily negated.

Wrist spinners are always wild card, they can put up more revs on the ball and hence can get purchase even on a non helpful pitches. It's harder to control and land on the same spot and hence wristies can go for runs, but their probability to get a wicket against the run of play is higher than the offies.

Edited February 6, 2024 by singhvivek141

[The Realist]

Yadav though talented comes across as more of a supporting bowler than leading attack so when Ashwin retires there is going to be a huge hole to fill.

[Frustrated]

Nice to see someone creating this thread for spinners.    Our spinners hv been toothless in both tests.   Had bumrah not stepped up with his game changing spells, we would hv been trailing 0-2.  

[putrevus]

Ashwin has looked below his par, but he is allowed to have few off matches , he has carried this team on this back for more than a decade along with Jadeja.Maybe he is looking to get over 500 mark and that is adding more pressure.He has been a superman for this team.

 

Bumrah is allowed to win some matches for India in India.

 

Rohit's captaincy is also a big issue, he is not getting the matchups rights. Ashwin always is confidence and rhythm bowler.He looked like he was getting his rhythm back for brief period .

Edited February 6, 2024 by putrevus

[singhvivek141]

2 hours ago, putrevus said:

Ashwin has looked below his par, but he is allowed to have few off matches , he has carried this team on this back for more than a decade along with Jadeja.Maybe he is looking to get over 500 mark and that is adding more pressure.He has been a superman for this team.

 

Bumrah is allowed to win some matches for India in India.

 

Rohit's captaincy is also a big issue, he is not getting the matchups rights. Ashwin always is confidence and rhythm bowler.He looked like he was getting his rhythm back for brief period .

One legend single handedly destroyed, 2 dreams

1. Ashwin getting 500 wickets

2. Bumrah getting a 10fer in Tests

Guess who ?