Paris Olympics 2024 Discussion Thread

[vvvslaxman]

Olympics Trials are big events in USA. Millions watch. I think about 8 millions watched Gymnastics trial .May be India has to start making Indian trials a big events like IPL. 

[deathmonger]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

Even in cricket, if we have standard sporting pitches everywhere (like in hockey or football), India will lose its relative competitiveness despite BCCI’s $$$s. 
 

 

india's dominance in cricket is simply due to the fact that only two major economies (uk/aus) play it and even there it is a somewhat niche sport.

 

not because of standard pitches. ind has defeated aus/eng at their home gorunds.

 

[deathmonger]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

Olympics Trials are big events in USA. Millions watch. I think about 8 millions watched Gymnastics trial .May be India has to start making Indian trials a big events like IPL. 

these things have to take a natural course. cannot be forced.

[deathmonger]

my pet theory is india will become a sports powerhouse when india is rich enough that the dalits, tribals, obcs have access to proper nutrition/facilities as they are not impeded by dietary restrictions or general aversion to physical activity due to caste reasons.

 

the hockey team is extremely blue collar and composed of people from backward classes/castes.

 

even india's good fast bowlers that have come up are from backward classes/castes.

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, deathmonger said:

 

global performance levels are relative to wealth. first world countries are saturated and are at their potential.

 

india being poorer will rise faster. ofc i expect asean countries and african countries to do better as well as they rise. india's performance in lower level stuff liek asian games, cwg is evident. even in olympics it has improved a lot but only top 3 get medals.

 

think of a seed buried beneath the soil. might take tiem to poke through but it is growing.

 

people of indian origin in rich countries don't do well due to pattern of migration/caste. they do well in educational/financial fields which is the domain of vast majority of indian immigrants abroad.

I think motivation level has to be a touch higher. Asian Athletic champions ship has seen 24 seasons. From 1983 till 2015 China was the winner They won 18 times in a row. India for the first time won the athletic championship in 2017 in history. In 2023 they finished third behind Japan and China.  India had more total medals than China at Bangkok event.  27 medals as against China's 22.  Japan finished with 37. Japan is still dominating heats 100 meter,200 meter, 400 meters. India did not even win a bronze in these categories. Saudi  one bronze/one silver. Japan won gold and silver in 400 meter.  Japan's 100 meter record was 10.02. India's best ever is 10.25. I am not sure if India even got qualified for 100 meter there. We are talking about Asian athletics

[deepdynamo]

China was really dominant at Diving (8 Gold), Weightlifting(5 Gold), Table Tennis (5 Gold), Shooting (5 Gold), Gymnastic (3 Gold), Boxing (3 Gold), Badminton(2 Gold).

That's 31 Gold in 7 sports.
 

In Contrast, USA was powerhouse in Athletic(14 Gold), Swimming (8 Gold), Gymnastic (3 Gold) & Basketball(2 Gold).

That's 27 Gold in 4 sports.

[vvvslaxman]

India has to first dominate Asian events and give China/Japan run for their money. That should be their first goal.

[zen]

25 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

 

global performance levels are relative to wealth. first world countries are saturated and are at their potential.

 

india being poorer will rise faster. ofc i expect asean countries and african countries to do better as well as they rise. india's performance in lower level stuff liek asian games, cwg is evident. even in olympics it has improved a lot but only top 3 get medals.

 

think of a seed buried beneath the soil. might take tiem to poke through but it is growing.

 

people of indian origin in rich countries don't do well due to pattern of migration/caste. they do well in educational/financial fields which is the domain of vast majority of indian immigrants abroad.

Kenya’s example shows wealth is not everything. So does India’s when it used to win a gold regularly in hockey in the past. 
 

Wealth helps but great talent can help bridge the gap. I probably mentioned it that countries like Argentina are able to compete with top wealthy nations, with much higher GDP per capita, in soccer. Brazil won multiple world titles in 50s and 70s based on talented players. 
 

In a country with 1.4B one should be able to find a handful of talented athletes. The continent of Africa is an example of it. Even if India is allowed to field as many athletes as Africa, it would still not win as many gold. 

 

Otherwise we can keep saying if x happens, then. And when x happens and nothing much happens, y needs to happen. Then Z.
 

 

23 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

india's dominance in cricket is simply due to the fact that only two major economies (uk/aus) play it and even there it is a somewhat niche sport.

 

not because of standard pitches. ind has defeated aus/eng at their home gorunds.

 

As I already said that cricket is losing interest from sports fans in general.
 

And if pitches are standardized, India would further lose any relative advantage it has of BCCI’s $$$s. 
 

Edited August 12, 2024 by zen

[deathmonger]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

Kenya’s example shows wealth is not everything. So does India’s when it used to win a gold regularly in hockey in the past. 
 

Wealth helps but great talent can help bridge the gap. I probably mentioned it that countries like Argentina are able to compete with top wealthy nations, with much higher GDP per capita, in soccer. Brazil won multiple world titles in 50s and 70s based on talented players. 
 

In a country with 1.4B one should be able to find a handful of talented athletes. The continent of Africa is an example of it. Even if India is allowed to field as many athletes as Africa, it would still not win as many gold as it is about quality not quantity. 

Otherwise we can keep saying if x happens, then. And when x happens and nothing much happens, y needs to happen. 

 

As I already said that cricket is losing interest from sports fans in general.
 

And if pitches are standardized, India would further lose any relative advantage it has of BCCI’s $$$s. 
 

Kenya is an exception because of genetics and infra (mind you Kenya was richer than India for most of their independent history). Most poor countries don't medal. Nigeria, the most populated African country got 0 medals.

 

Again comparing continents with a country is a dumb move. The EU has more golds than the USA. That is simply because a continent will simply have multiple candidates compared to a country. If India could put in 7-8 participants per shooting discipline, India would win a lot more shooting medals (Ind has lots of good shooters who didn't make the cut cause of country limits) or 3-4 per weight class in wrestling.

 

"Africa" is not limited to 1/2/3 candidates per sport.

 

Also there are richer countries in Africa who are not burdened by being part of a larger poorer whole unlike say Indian states. So, a South Africa or Botswana is not the same as Haryana.

 

It is not a 1 is to 1 thing but the thing is the vast majority of medal winners etc are all from richer countries.

 

Kenya at 17 is the highest country with and HDI below 0.7. Next is Ethiopia at 47.

 

 

[zen]

The gold winning mentality is about bringing the best out of you from what you have. It is about pushing yourself to show to yourself and the world what you have got. 
 

If you need X and then Y has to happen, you have already lost the plot. 
 

Olympics are not a social gathering photo-op events. It is not an event where participating itself means that you won. 
 

GOI should consider skipping these events if minimum standards are not met by the athletes. It 
 

Neeraj Chopra won a gold and a silver, despite the system or whatever excuses are on the table. Countries like India need to “have” more such Neeraj Chopras! That too when you boast of a population of 1.4B. It won a gold in hockey regularly in the past.

 

 

[deathmonger]

17 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

India has to first dominate Asian events and give China/Japan run for their money. That should be their first goal.

That is true for athletics.

 

But wrestling, badminton, shooting, hockey India aren't far off from the top level. Should consolidate that and cricket to have 4-5 golds first.

[deathmonger]

1 minute ago, zen said:

The gold winning mentality is about bringing the best out of you from what you have. It is about pushing yourself to show to yourself and the world what you have got. 
 

If you need X and then Y has to happen, you have already lost the plot. 
 

Olympics are not a social gathering photo-op events. It is not an event where participating itself means that you won. 
 

GOI should consider skipping these events if minimum standards are not met by the athletes. It 
 

Neeraj Chopra won a gold and a silver, despite the system or whatever excuses are on the table. Countries like India need to “have” more such Neeraj Chopras! That too when you boast of a population of 1.4B. It won a gold in hockey regularly in the past.

 

 

Neeraj Chopra came through the system. India will "have" more as India becomes richer.

 

India did well in hockey cause of the legacy system, similar to Kenya in running.

 

All of this "mentality" etc is rubbish. No amount of "mentality" can compensate for lack of infra/facilities.

 

Korea, Brazil also were poor when they were poor countries. China is a communist country with a dedicated sports program like East Germany/North Korea etc.

[zen]

Just now, deathmonger said:

Kenya is an exception because of genetics and infra (mind you Kenya was richer than India for most of their independent history). Most poor countries don't medal. Nigeria, the most populated African country got 0 medals.

 

Again comparing continents with a country is a dumb move. The EU has more golds than the USA. That is simply because a continent will simply have multiple candidates compared to a country. If India could put in 7-8 participants per shooting discipline, India would win a lot more shooting medals (Ind has lots of good shooters who didn't make the cut cause of country limits) or 3-4 per weight class in wrestling.

 

"Africa" is not limited to 1/2/3 candidates per sport.

 

Also there are richer countries in Africa who are not burdened by being part of a larger poorer whole unlike say Indian states. So, a South Africa or Botswana is not the same as Haryana.

 

It is not a 1 is to 1 thing but the thing is the vast majority of medal winners etc are all from richer countries.

 

Kenya at 17 is the highest country with and HDI below 0.7. Next is Ethiopia at 47.

 

 

Those countries in EU are on par with the USA. As a continent, EU is more populated than the US. 

Even if US is allowed to field as many athletes as EU, it is unlikely to find as many champs. 
 

Wealth helps but it is not a barrier to winning a few gold medals when you have access to 1.4B population. 
 

Why would anyone waste his time on writing things like if X happens in 2060, India will have more medals  

 

And then in 2060, if Y happens, and so on. 
 

One has to first utilize what it already has. 

 

[deepdynamo]

Japan was really unstoppable in Wrestling- 8 Gold Medals (6 in Freestyle and 2 in Greko Roman).
Uzbekistan Male Boxers were on fire- 5 out of 7 Men Boxer clinched Gold.
South Korea swept Archery- 5/5 Gold.

Kenya genetics in middle distance & long distance running is unmatched- 4 Gold and total 11 medals.
Newzealand mastered canoeing (4 Gold) and Netherland were top in Rowing (4 Gold) and Cycling (3 gold).

[zen]

9 minutes ago, deathmonger said:

Neeraj Chopra came through the system. India will "have" more as India becomes richer.

 

India did well in hockey cause of the legacy system, similar to Kenya in running.

 

All of this "mentality" etc is rubbish. No amount of "mentality" can compensate for lack of infra/facilities.

 

Korea, Brazil also were poor when they were poor countries. China is a communist country with a dedicated sports program like East Germany/North Korea etc.

Nope. If the system was there, India would get more medals in javelin. It hasn’t. And there is no guarantee it will win any more medals in javelin if Chopra isn’t available.
 

It is Neeraj Chopra who won it based on his talent! That is what top sporting countries produce. 

Wealth helps but it is not everything. Otherwise there is no point for low (or relatively low) GDP per capita nations participating in Olympics. 

 

Edited August 12, 2024 by zen

[deathmonger]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Those countries in EU are on par with the USA. As a continent, EU is more populated than the US. 

Even if US is allowed to field as many athletes as EU, it is unlikely to find as many champs. 
 

Wealth helps but it is not a barrier to winning a few gold medals when you have access to 1.4B population. 
 

Why would anyone waste his time on writing things like if X happens in 2060, India will have more medals  

 

And then in 2060, if Y happens, and so on. 
 

One has to first utilize what it already has. 

 

Same with your Africa-India analogy.

 

If US is allowed to field to as many athletes as EU, it will find champs. In fact lots of Americans play for other countries cause there are no spots and win medals.

 

India is already utilizing what it has.

 

It is not a waste of time, it is a fact. Increase in income leads to better sporting prowess.

[deathmonger]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Nope. If the system was there, India would get more medals in javelin. It hasn’t. And there is no guarantee it will win any more medals in javelin if Chopra isn’t available.
 

It is Neeraj Chopra who won it based on his talent! That is what top sporting countries produce. 

Wealth helps but it is not everything. Otherwise there is no point for low (or relatively low) GDP per capita nations participating in Olympics. 

 

There is a point. The point is participation. That is the ethos of the Olympics. That is why there are continental spots.

 

The point is to move the needle further. India didn't win anything much until 2008.

 

You are getting into circular logic.

 

Neeraj Chopra exists because of the system. Doesn't mean the system will create more Neeraj Chopras.

 

w/o the system, Neeraj wouldn't exist. System sent him to World Junior Athletics in 2016. System paid for coach and biomechanics expert. W/o system, Neeraj would not exist.

 

Because of system, there were 3 Indians in top 6 in World Athletics championships in javelin. Because of system, Jena won silver.

[zen]

Just now, deathmonger said:

Same with your Africa-India analogy.

 

If US is allowed to field to as many athletes as EU, it will find champs. In fact lots of Americans play for other countries cause there are no spots and win medals.

 

India is already utilizing what it has.

 

It is not a waste of time, it is a fact. Increase in income leads to better sporting prowess.

Nope. You cannot find champs that easily.
 

In that way, every wealthy country can claim to be able to win more medals!
 

 

 

[zen]

Just now, deathmonger said:

There is a point. The point is participation. That is the ethos of the Olympics. That is why there are continental spots.

 

The point is to move the needle further. India didn't win anything much until 2008.

 

You are getting into circular logic.

 

Neeraj Chopra exists because of the system. Doesn't mean the system will create more Neeraj Chopras.

 

w/o the system, Neeraj wouldn't exist. System sent him to World Junior Athletics in 2016. System paid for coach and biomechanics expert. W/o system, Neeraj would not exist.

 

Because of system, there were 3 Indians in top 6 in World Athletics championships in javelin. Because of system, Jena won silver.

Nope. Almost every county has a “system”. If there is system in javallian, there is system in other fields too!

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

Watching us do well in Hockey is incredibly satisfying.  US going pound for pound in a tough field sport against Nordic and Anglos is like throwback to the times when Indians faced the might of Greeks back in the Ancient era. 

Somewhere along the road Indians lost that genetic edge & it reflected in every walk of life. 

Chinese should have been no match us to otherwise.. entire South Asia was cursed by something.

Vivekananda realised it as well & linked it to our colonial and foreign rule part.  Japan was his inspiration in that matter.