zen Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 An excerpt from the book “Sapiens”: The humans collectively knows far more today than did the ancient bands. But at the individual level, ancient foragers were the most knowledgeable and skilful people in history. There is some evidence that the size of the average Sapiens brain has actually decreased since the game of foraging. Survival in that era required superb mental abilities from everyone. When agriculture and industry came along people could increasingly rely on the sills of the others for survival, and new ‘niches of the imbeciles’ were opened up. You could survive and pass your unremarkable genes to the next generation by working as a water carrier or an assembly-line worker. Foragers mastered not only the surrounding world of animals, plants and objects, but also the interns, world of their own bodies and senses. … … Discuss - Were ancient foragers the most knowledgeable and skilful people in history?
mishra Posted October 25, 2024 Posted October 25, 2024 Define forager? If its about living under hardship, without Tech and all, Offcourse they would be better at it. But if evolution happens and learning from experience happens, Then we are better.
zen Posted October 25, 2024 Author Posted October 25, 2024 39 minutes ago, mishra said: Define forager? The ones before the agricultural revolution. 40 minutes ago, mishra said: If its about living under hardship In certain ways, per the book, their lives were relatively better as they had no schedule to keep (a Chinese factory worker could be out of home for 12 hours, and eat mainly rice for all 3 meals), eat different types of food based on what they find, think on the fly, less exposure go contagious diseases (as animals were not domesticated and moving around meant no accumulation of germs), etc. Obviously, the challenges included child mortality, etc.
Mariyam Posted October 27, 2024 Posted October 27, 2024 More attuned to nature, the foragers had to be to survive. Intellectual exploits are only possible when your basic needs are met. And in that, the sedentary post agriculture human is far more knowledgeable than the hunter gatherer forager. BacktoCricaddict 1
Chaos Posted October 27, 2024 Posted October 27, 2024 Foragers have to be smarter because they need to survive the nature and its wrath. Simply put in the uni they r smarter.
zen Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 For quick reference, Timeline of History (from the book): Years before present - Event 13.B - Matter and Energy appear. Beginning of physics. atoms and molecules appear. Beginning of chemistry. 4.5B - Formation of planet Earth. 3.8B - Emergence of organisms. Beginning of biology. 6M - Last common grandmother of humans and chimpanzees. 2.5M - Evolution of the genus Homo in Africa. 2M - Humans spread from Africa to Eurasia. Evolution of different human species. 500K - Neanderthals evolve in Europe and the Middle East. 300K - Daily use of fire. 200K - Homo sapiens evolves in East Africa. 70K - The Cognitive Revolution. Emergence of fictive language. Beginning of history. Sapiens spread out of Africa. 45K - Sapiens settle Australia. Extinction of Australian megafauna. 30K - Extinction of Neanderthals. 16K - Sapiens settle America. Extinction of American megafauna. 13K - Extinction of Homo floresiensis. Homo sapiens the only surviving human species. 12K - The Agricultural Revolution. Domestication of plants and animals. Permanent settlements. 5K - First kingdoms, script and money. Polytheistic religions. 4.25K - First empire - the Akkadian Empire of Sargon. 2.5K - Invention of coinage - a universal money. The Persian Empire - a universal political order ‘for the benefit of all humans’. Buddhism in India - a universal truth ‘to liberate all beings from sufferings’. 2K - Han Empire in China. Roman Empire in the Mediterranean. Christianity. 1.4K - Islam. 500 - The Scientific Revolution. Humankind admits its ignorance and begins to acquire unprecedented power. Europeans begin to conquer America and the oceans. The entire planet becomes a single historical arena. The rise of capitalism. 200 - The Industrial Revolution. Family and community are replaced by state and market. Massive extinction of plants and animals. The Present - Humans transcend the boundaries of planet Earth. Nuclear weapons threaten the survival of humankind. Organisms are increasingly shaped by intelligent design rather than natural selection. The Future - Intelligent design becomes the basic principle of life? Homo sapiens is replaced by superhumans? Chaos and Lord 2
Chaos Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 49 minutes ago, zen said: For quick reference, Timeline of History (from the book): Years before present - Event 13.B - Matter and Energy appear. Beginning of physics. atoms and molecules appear. Beginning of chemistry. 4.5B - Formation of planet Earth. 3.8B - Emergence of organisms. Beginning of biology. 6M - Last common grandmother of humans and chimpanzees. 2.5M - Evolution of the genus Homo in Africa. 2M - Humans spread from Africa to Eurasia. Evolution of different human species. 500K - Neanderthals evolve in Europe and the Middle East. 300K - Daily use of fire. 200K - Homo sapiens evolves in East Africa. 70K - The Cognitive Revolution. Emergence of fictive language. Beginning of history. Sapiens spread out of Africa. 45K - Sapiens settle Australia. Extinction of Australian megafauna. 30K - Extinction of Neanderthals. 16K - Sapiens settle America. Extinction of American megafauna. 13K - Extinction of Homo floresiensis. Homo sapiens the only surviving human species. 12K - The Agricultural Revolution. Domestication of plants and animals. Permanent settlements. 5K - First kingdoms, script and money. Polytheistic religions. 4.25K - First empire - the Akkadian Empire of Sargon. 2.5K - Invention of coinage - a universal money. The Persian Empire - a universal political order ‘for the benefit of all humans’. Buddhism in India - a universal truth ‘to liberate all beings from sufferings’. 2K - Han Empire in China. Roman Empire in the Mediterranean. Christianity. 1.4K - Islam. 500 - The Scientific Revolution. Humankind admits its ignorance and begins to acquire unprecedented power. Europeans begin to conquer America and the oceans. The entire planet becomes a single historical arena. The rise of capitalism. 200 - The Industrial Revolution. Family and community are replaced by state and market. Massive extinction of plants and animals. The Present - Humans transcend the boundaries of planet Earth. Nuclear weapons threaten the survival of humankind. Organisms are increasingly shaped by intelligent design rather than natural selection. The Future - Intelligent design becomes the basic principle of life? Homo sapiens is replaced by superhumans? Principle mishra 1
Muloghonto Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 On 10/25/2024 at 5:41 AM, zen said: An excerpt from the book “Sapiens”: The humans collectively knows far more today than did the ancient bands. But at the individual level, ancient foragers were the most knowledgeable and skilful people in history. There is some evidence that the size of the average Sapiens brain has actually decreased since the game of foraging. Survival in that era required superb mental abilities from everyone. When agriculture and industry came along people could increasingly rely on the sills of the others for survival, and new ‘niches of the imbeciles’ were opened up. You could survive and pass your unremarkable genes to the next generation by working as a water carrier or an assembly-line worker. Foragers mastered not only the surrounding world of animals, plants and objects, but also the interns, world of their own bodies and senses. … … Discuss - Were ancient foragers the most knowledgeable and skilful people in history? Unremarkable genes are all passed around in foraging societies- there are plenty of people who sit around and do nothing in those societies too. The decisive difference, aka, limiting factor, is food availability/food density - which is massively increased via agriculture, which allows far more 'unremarkable skills' to pass on, which, as far as evolution is concerned, also includes mathematics, civilization, etc. - these are also product of 'sitting around doing nothing towards continuously seeking food and sustainance, being reliant on the skills of others for survival. This is why foragers/nomadic people have ultimately lost out to farming civilizations(lack of food density leading to lack of population density leading to lack of innovation that requires one to sit around and do nothing survivalist like Brahmagupta or a Bhaskara) - despite having an unnatural prolongation in competitiveness due to domestication of the horse serving as an exceptional war tool for conquering and living off the resources OF farming civilizations till the 1600s rolled around and farming civilization more or less won out by nullifying the horse with the hand-held firearm. Vijy 1
zen Posted October 28, 2024 Author Posted October 28, 2024 31 minutes ago, Chaos said: Principle principle or principal mishra and Chaos 2
Muloghonto Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 1 hour ago, zen said: For quick reference, Timeline of History (from the book): Years before present - Event 13.B - Matter and Energy appear. Beginning of physics. atoms and molecules appear. Beginning of chemistry. 4.5B - Formation of planet Earth. 3.8B - Emergence of organisms. Beginning of biology. 6M - Last common grandmother of humans and chimpanzees. 2.5M - Evolution of the genus Homo in Africa. 2M - Humans spread from Africa to Eurasia. Evolution of different human species. 500K - Neanderthals evolve in Europe and the Middle East. 300K - Daily use of fire. 200K - Homo sapiens evolves in East Africa. 70K - The Cognitive Revolution. Emergence of fictive language. Beginning of history. Sapiens spread out of Africa. 45K - Sapiens settle Australia. Extinction of Australian megafauna. 30K - Extinction of Neanderthals. 16K - Sapiens settle America. Extinction of American megafauna. 13K - Extinction of Homo floresiensis. Homo sapiens the only surviving human species. 12K - The Agricultural Revolution. Domestication of plants and animals. Permanent settlements. 5K - First kingdoms, script and money. Polytheistic religions. 4.25K - First empire - the Akkadian Empire of Sargon. 2.5K - Invention of coinage - a universal money. The Persian Empire - a universal political order ‘for the benefit of all humans’. Buddhism in India - a universal truth ‘to liberate all beings from sufferings’. 2K - Han Empire in China. Roman Empire in the Mediterranean. Christianity. 1.4K - Islam. 500 - The Scientific Revolution. Humankind admits its ignorance and begins to acquire unprecedented power. Europeans begin to conquer America and the oceans. The entire planet becomes a single historical arena. The rise of capitalism. 200 - The Industrial Revolution. Family and community are replaced by state and market. Massive extinction of plants and animals. The Present - Humans transcend the boundaries of planet Earth. Nuclear weapons threaten the survival of humankind. Organisms are increasingly shaped by intelligent design rather than natural selection. The Future - Intelligent design becomes the basic principle of life? Homo sapiens is replaced by superhumans? The timeline of your book is more or less accurate, especially after the 5K period - the higher bounds are subject to more revision over time ( as expected) but one notable error and example of western bias is putting capitalism's rise in the 1500s. No,that is 2nd birth of capitalism, with the first birth being in the 700s BCE-1100s CE Indo-pacific region, with the Srenis being corporate entities following a capitalism model that is similar to capitalism of pre-stock market era, where bonds exist but stock tradiing does not.
Ranvir Posted October 28, 2024 Posted October 28, 2024 People like them still exist in parts of Africa and South America. No one thinks of them as being advanced. It's a great book but I think Harari gets carried away and exaggerates things at times.
zen Posted November 1, 2024 Author Posted November 1, 2024 (edited) “If we combine the mass extinctions in Australia and America, and add the smaller-scale extinctions that took place as Home sapiens spread over Afro-Asia - such as the extinction of all other human species - and the extinctions that occurred when ancient foragers settled remote islands such as Cuba, the inevitable conclusion is that the first wave of Sapiens colonization was one of the biggest and swiftest ecological disasters to befall the animal kingdom.” ”Hardest hit were the large furry creatures. At the time of the Cognitive Revolution, the planet was home to about 200 genera of large terrestrial mammals weighing over 50 kilograms. At the time of the Agricultural Revolution, only about a 100 remained. Homo sapiens drove to extinction about half of the planet’s big beasts long before humans invented the wheel, writing, or iron tools.” Edited November 1, 2024 by zen
Muloghonto Posted November 1, 2024 Posted November 1, 2024 5 hours ago, zen said: “If we combine the mass extinctions in Australia and America, and add the smaller-scale extinctions that took place as Home sapiens spread over Afro-Asia - such as the extinction of all other human species - and the extinctions that occurred when ancient foragers settled remote islands such as Cuba, the inevitable conclusion is that the first wave of Sapiens colonization was one of the biggest and swiftest ecological disasters to befall the animal kingdom.” ”Hardest hit were the large furry creatures. At the time of the Cognitive Revolution, the planet was home to about 200 genera of large terrestrial mammals weighing over 50 kilograms. At the time of the Agricultural Revolution, only about a 100 remained. Homo sapiens drove to extinction about half of the planet’s big beasts long before humans invented the wheel, writing, or iron tools.” There is very little support for this theory in greater scientific community, mostly because the timframe of this so-called 'cognitive revolution' and 'agricultural revolution' is a period of nearly half a million years and there are plenty of climate related events to investigate for said extinctions of flora and fauna. Using cuba is a stupid example, this is not a feature of just 'fallen human' homo sapiens, this is a feature of EVERY predatory animal when introducted to a micro eco-system as invasive species at some point in history - plenty of hamster to golf ball sized rodents in the world have gone extinct within 2 centuries of cats showing up to that location, sometimes even wild dogs have driven species into extinction in micro ecosystems. Micro biomes are areas of nitche evolutions but also areas of extreme vulnerability : approx 90% of the animal species in India went exting within a million years of India joining Eurasia, because of invasive hunter species arriving from Eurasia itself, so Cuba or Zeeland or such are just small potatoes in this discussion. Evolutionarily and in biological terms, even Australia is not considered a macroscopc ecosystem fyi, being just big enough to not really be a micro biome but nowhere large enough to show the same biological trajectory of the two world islands ( Afro-Eurasia & Americas).
zen Posted November 1, 2024 Author Posted November 1, 2024 On 10/29/2024 at 5:02 AM, Ranvir said: It's a great book but I think Harari gets carried away and exaggerates things at times. It is beautifully written. I can visualize the events. I read it in like 30 or so mins slots and may post more excerpts from it (if I find them interesting).
zen Posted November 1, 2024 Author Posted November 1, 2024 (edited) If anyone has read Home Deus (follow up to Sapiens), is it worth reading? That is are his vision or ideas presented nicely and interestingly? While Sapiens is about the past, Homo Deus is about the future with Sapiens probably turning into Deus. PS Sapiens I have it on Kindle. Probably got it when it came out (2014?) but only started reading it now. Homo Deus, if it is interesting, I can probably get it on Audible (then it may have to wait its turn). Edited November 1, 2024 by zen
Ranvir Posted November 2, 2024 Posted November 2, 2024 3 hours ago, zen said: If anyone has read Home Deus (follow up to Sapiens), is it worth reading? That is are his vision or ideas presented nicely and interestingly? While Sapiens is about the past, Homo Deus is about the future with Sapiens probably turning into Deus. PS Sapiens I have it on Kindle. Probably got it when it came out (2014?) but only started reading it now. Homo Deus, if it is interesting, I can probably get it on Audible (then it may have to wait its turn). Just go on youtube and look up his talks. He talks a lot about the dangers of AI on humans these days. zen 1
zen Posted November 4, 2024 Author Posted November 4, 2024 (edited) On 11/2/2024 at 5:32 AM, Ranvir said: Just go on youtube and look up his talks. He talks a lot about the dangers of AI on humans these days. AI related topics are said to be covered in his latest book “Nexus”. Edited November 4, 2024 by zen
Ranvir Posted November 4, 2024 Posted November 4, 2024 5 hours ago, zen said: AI related topics are said to be covered in his latest book “Nexus”. At this point, these are all just opinions from him. He is a historian, he can't predict the future.
MechEng Posted November 12, 2024 Posted November 12, 2024 @zen The actual timeline is this: 1. Lord Brahma creates the universe (big bang happens) Billions and billions and billions of years later.....during 28th maha yug A. Satya Yuga: people were 30 feet tall and had etheric bodies. They had X men like super powers and could fly at will like Iron Man. B. Treat Yuga: people were 20 feet tall and started to have denser bodies, instead of having super powers at will, they use mantras or incantations for the same. Ravana got owned this time. C. Dwapar Yuga: Don't know tech wise but people were 12 feet tall and cool weapons were used during Mahabharat war. Great flood follows later which probably explains sudden extinction of Indus Valley civilization. D. Kali Yuga: Current times, everything is machine made, India is a meme country and bashed around for being dirty on YouTube. Goras rule. 400,000 years later Kalki comes and says "Enough is enough, I cannot tolerate more nonsense". Cleans up the mess created by us to bring a new era.
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