Pant has all the skills leveling with Tendulkar but match awareness of Arshdeep

[Chakdephatte]

Were we going for a win or draw? At times, it looked like even Jaiswal was try to hit wide ones. Looked patient otherwise. They looked like going for the target. With other batters, it wasn't the case. 

 

Or maybe they were instructed to do whatever they like to do. 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Chakdephatte

[Vijy]

3 minutes ago, Chakdephatte said:

Were we going for a win or draw? At times, it looked like even Jaiswal was try to hit wide ones. Looked patient otherwise. They looked like going for the target. With other batters, it wasn't the case. 

 

Or maybe they were instructed to do whatever they like to do. 

I have a feeling that TM instructed Pant-Jaiswal to go for it after tea, and seeing how quickly it backfired, they are trying to do damage control by offloading the blame onto these players.

[lemsip]

28 minutes ago, Vijy said:

22 avg IMO is not terrible for keeper. I am sure there are some series where MSD had such avg in SENA.

Dhoni just didn't have the technique to play in SENA countries and was a walking wicket. Plus he used to bat lower in the order in tests there. Pant is a proper test match batsman with the technique to build an innings against both pace and spin. He is being played too high. Look at Alex Carey the Aussie keeper and attacking batsman who comes in at 7 like Gilchrist used to. Pant on the other hand is being used in effectively a top order rescue slot at 5. Like with a lot of team selection under Rohit and gambhir, there is a complete lack of role clarity ( like for KL too)

[lemsip]

1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said:

But you can offset all your match winning efforts with match losing efforts like this.

That is not a match losing mistake. He was the 4th batsman out with more than half the side left with less than 1 session to survive. It's convenient to dump the blame on the guys who actually showed some fight and airbrush the top order fiascos from roko

[Bigg Brother]

37 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Nah need to fix others and he'll be fine. This is like blaming Sachin for Chennai 136 Test v Pak

That shot was not on . Don't know about Sachin shot as have not seen live but with the fragile batting line up we have now , he should have resisted playing that. Gate opened and result is infront of us.. Ro-Ko scored 100 or 0 , with fielder there that shot was never on considering the situation we were in. Myself have defended him for shot in Perth 2nd innings but that was different situation as we were already so much ahead.  Also Sachin shot was like Kohli played that lofted shot at Adelaide -2014 going for win. Going for shots while you are short of batting partners is different thing. Here 6 runs would have meant zilch . We were never winning this. No matter what TM or Rohit say about going for win just to justify it , we were never going to win with top 3 contribution of 20 collectively..

[Lord]

4 minutes ago, lemsip said:

That is not a match losing mistake. He was the 4th batsman out with more than half the side left with less than 1 session to survive. It's convenient to dump the blame on the guys who actually showed some fight and airbrush the top order fiascos from roko

Yes after his wicket we lost 6 wickets in 20 overs.

[Frustrated]

1 minute ago, lemsip said:

That is not a match losing mistake. He was the 4th batsman out with more than half the side left with less than 1 session to survive. It's convenient to dump the blame on the guys who actually showed some fight and airbrush the top order fiascos from roko

Nobody is brushing aside RoKo's match losing performances.   There are plenty of threads criticizing Roko and their liabilities.  (Rightly so).   However, this thread is all about Pant & his batting. Let's not mix Roko and other players in this thread.  

[lemsip]

1 minute ago, Bigg Brother said:

That shot was not on . Don't know about Sachin shot as have not seen live but with the fragile batting line up we have now , he should have resisted playing that. Gate opened and result is infront of us.. Ro-Ko scored 100 or 0 , with fielder there that shot was never on considering the situation we were in. Myself have defended him for shot in Perth 2nd innings but that was different situation as we were already so much ahead.  Also Sachin shot was like Kohli played that lofted shot at Adelaide -2014 going for win. Going for shots while you are short of batting partners is different thing. Here 6 runs would have meant zilch . We were never winning this. No matter what TM or Rohit say about going for win just to justify it , we were never going to win with top 3 contribution of 20 collectively..

The issue is that his is the bad shot that is being singled out but the atrocious shots from Kohli and Sharma are brushed aside and ignored. At least Pant had fought hard for over 2 hours before that shot. Similar for the criticism of Jaiswal 

[lemsip]

3 minutes ago, Frustrated said:

Nobody is brushing aside RoKo's match losing performances.   There are plenty of threads criticizing Roko and their liabilities.  (Rightly so).   However, this thread is all about Pant & his batting. Let's not mix Roko and other players in this thread.  

Like I've said, Pant is being played too high in the order for a keeper batsman especially after needing to keep frequently for 100 overs or more. He should be a number 7 like Carey is and Gilchrist was.  The job of batting along with the top order should be the role of another full time batsman.

[CG]

I think pant played a bad shot but still what were jadega,Reddy doing you except others to bat a session on this flat pitch .

Edited December 30, 2024 by CG

[Bigg Brother]

1 hour ago, lemsip said:

The issue is that his is the bad shot that is being singled out but the atrocious shots from Kohli and Sharma are brushed aside and ignored. At least Pant had fought hard for over 2 hours before that shot. Similar for the criticism of Jaiswal 

Nobody is singling out. Ro-Ko are gone case, any contribution from them is considered bonus now-a-days. Exactly, he had fought hard for that. And that's what make it more painful. He himself was playing for draw and effort was there. Should have stuck to that plan. Taking on Head in last session with over 200 runs required with fielder exactly placed there isn't wise thing to do. 

[Number]

If he had drawn us this game playing against his nature, he probably would have transitioned into a great batsman from a very good one today in the eyes of test cricket fans around the world.

Not to be 

Still played well.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Number

[Forever Indian]

1 hour ago, lemsip said:

Like I've said, Pant is being played too high in the order for a keeper batsman especially after needing to keep frequently for 100 overs or more. He should be a number 7 like Carey is and Gilchrist was.  The job of batting along with the top order should be the role of another full time batsman.

Yes, agreed. The number 7 position for WK in tests is more so that they can rest up after a full day or two of keeping which is not an easy job. If you are looking for quick runs, then it's fine. But expecting the Keeper bat to then bat out many overs is going to take it's toll on the body.

 

There are two scenarios that will happen:

1) Pant will lose concentration due to to the tiredness and play a rash shot (or)

2) Play a shot which he is capabale of but lose shape or power due to the tiredness

 

This is the reason historically WK bats have averaged Low (than batsmen) and bat low down the order. Likes of Sangakkara for example gave up Keeping when he started batting up the order.

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, lemsip said:

That is not a match losing mistake. He was the 4th batsman out with more than half the side left with less than 1 session to survive. It's convenient to dump the blame on the guys who actually showed some fight and airbrush the top order fiascos from roko

It was.

were India in losing the match situation when they were 33/3 - Yes

were India in saving the match situation at Tea - Yes

 

So Pant did all the hard work to get India to that stage. So giving an opening to them was a match losing moment.  In the first innings he played an even worse test. But in the context this shot is worse than that shot. Austrlaians were about to throw their towel in.

[lemsip]

15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

So Pant did all the hard work to get India to that stage. So giving an opening to them was a match losing moment.  In the first innings he played an even worse test. But in the context this shot is worse than that shot. Austrlaians were about to throw their towel in.

The flaw in the argument is that assumption that the entire batting revolves around one player - a wicketkeeper/batter- not making a mistake.  Why should a long batting order be so fragile that with 6 wickets left and less than a session to navigate, they are unable to score more than 20 runs between them on a benign pitch against a tired attack after he gets out?

I feel expectations from Pant are current unrealistic and his role needs to be managed properly. You can't expect a guy to keep wickets for 100 overs, come in again at 33/3 with hardly a break, bat an entire session setting aside his natural game, take on the main responsibility of seeing the team to safety and then not make a single mistake all day. It doesn't surprise me if tiredness forces a miscalculation or mistake.

Pant is expected to play an uncharecteristic game  for him while specialist batsmen and other players have no such expectations of not making mistakes even when it's their main role in the team  unlike him.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by lemsip

[vvvslaxman]

Just now, lemsip said:

The flaw in the argument is that assumption that the entire batting revolves around one player - a wicketkeeper/batter- not making a mistake.  Why should a long batting order be so fragile that with 6 wickets left and less than a session to navigate, they are unable to score more than 20 runs between them on a benign pitch against a tired attack after he gets out?

I feel expectations from Pant are current unrealistic and his role needs to be managed properly. You can't expect a guy to keep wickets for 100 overs, come in again at 33/3 with hardly a break, bat an entire session setting aside his natural game, take on the main responsibility of seeing the team to safety and then not make a single mistake all day. I doesn't surprise me if tiredness forces a miscalculation or mistake.

Pant is expected to play an uncharecteristic game  for him while specialist batsmen and other players have no such expectations of not making mistakes even when it's their main role in the team  unlike him.

 

 

 

Oflate India's fortune revolves around one player  that one player changes from match to match.  One player = Set batsmen.  First innings it was Reddy and Sundar.  First test Rahul and Jaiswal. When yourunit is fragile you should make the most of your stay. Reddy is 21 year old. Obviously you cannot expect him to save us again and again under pressure. If he is tired he shouldn't even attempt a shot like that. There is a reason why Sachin's 136 is not as memorable because of one shot "out of tiredness". He had hit Saqlain for 4 fours. He still continued his chance with 16 runs to win the match. Rest is history. Never let go of the momentum. Imagine Laxman or Dravid playing a shot out of tiredness at the Eden Gardens. They added chanceless 344 runs.  Long back sunny said after Sachin's 136 dismissal. His comment was "Don't leave the job to others". That stuck in my memory.  When you are set don't leave it to others. 

[Number]

8 minutes ago, lemsip said:

The flaw in the argument is that assumption that the entire batting revolves around one player - a wicketkeeper/batter- not making a mistake.  Why should a long batting order be so fragile that with 6 wickets left and less than a session to navigate, they are unable to score more than 20 runs between them on a benign pitch against a tired attack after he gets out?

I feel expectations from Pant are current unrealistic and his role needs to be managed properly. You can't expect a guy to keep wickets for 100 overs, come in again at 33/3 with hardly a break, bat an entire session setting aside his natural game, take on the main responsibility of seeing the team to safety and then not make a single mistake all day. I doesn't surprise me if tiredness forces a miscalculation or mistake.

Pant is expected to play an uncharecteristic game  for him while specialist batsmen and other players have no such expectations of not making mistakes even when it's their main role in the team  unlike him.

 

 

Can't agree more with your posts. Before this series I was of the view that he should give up the keeping duties and bat at 4, the most premier batting position.

 

But seems like he is not willing to give up those at least for the time being.

Nowhere I have seen a wicketkeeper who bats at 5 and with a lineup made up of walking wickets,rookies  and inconsistent batsmen he is expected to carry it.

That is too much of an expectation from a guy who was barely regular 4 years ago.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Number

[vvvslaxman]

If you remember Pnat did the same in WTC final. There was a rain threat that could potentially save India.  Around the time Pant played a ridiculous shot and got out. His shots won't look ugly when you have a lot of time left on either side. Even that lapschoop would have been safer shot given that there were no fielders

[vvvslaxman]

APart from Ashwin lot of our players lack game awareness. Sundar giving strike to Akash was forgivable. But not to SIraj and Bumrah. Still a long shot. Who knows he could have saved the match himself.  Lyon denied strike to Boland for a while before confidently giving strike to him.

[lemsip]

2 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

Oflate India's fortune revolves around one player  that one player changes from match to match.  One player = Set batsmen.  First innings it was Reddy and Sundar.  First test Rahul and Jaiswal. When yourunit is fragile you should make the most of your stay. Reddy is 21 year old. Obviously you cannot expect him to save us again and again under pressure. If he is tired he shouldn't even attempt a shot like that. There is a reason why Sachin's 136 is not as memorable because of one shot "out of tiredness". He had hit Saqlain for 4 fours. He still continued his chance with 16 runs to win the match. Rest is history. Never let go of the momentum. Imagine Laxman or Dravid playing a shot out of tiredness at the Eden Gardens. They added chanceless 344 runs.  Long back sunny said after Sachin's 136 dismissal. His comment was "Don't leave the job to others". That stuck in my memory.  When you are set don't leave it to others. 

What that tells you is that people have and will always make mistakes when tired. Under Sachin also India essentially relied on one person alone to close the deal. That is not a team that is good enough to beat strong opposition and any successes are based on luck. Pant is a keeper-batsman who should be batting at number 7. India need a proper full time batsman at number 5 who should have taken up the responsibility of batting time at the stage where Pant was sent in after Kohli's dismissal. He is currently the only keeper  in international cricket who is regularly batting at number 5. I think he is probably the only one for many years.