Is Ashwin the genuine all rounder we are looking for?

[R!TTER]

26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

It was a case of English batsmen outbatting us. Moeen Bhai has poor averages against most teams except India. 

I'm talking about his overall avg in all 4 major away test nations; it's barely +4 above what Bumrah does with the bat in the same time frame, post 2020, so no, the argument doesn't hold well.

Edited September 24, 2024 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

I'm talking about his overall avg in all 4 major away test nations; it's barely +4 above what Bumrah does with the bat in the same time frame, post 2020, so no, the argument doesn't hold well.

 

Yea. He went through a lean patch with bat. He looked like his batting was gone for all money. He has turned it around after that due to IPL and TNPL experience. He tries to get better unlike our King who is doing the same mistake of chasing 8th stump line for 4 years in a row still the first name in the sheet.

[vvvslaxman]

Just remember this lol But for him india would have embarrasingly lost the  Test to Bangladesh. that would have been the ultimate humiliation. India and SA are the only 2 nations that are yet to be defeated by Bangla boys.  After DK choking he pulled off that last ball run chase. Then that drawn mathc. 100 against England at chepauk. Again at 144/6 he made a 100. He has delievered a lot of clutch performances. But somehow we have this weird obsession of puting him down by comparing him with random overseas bowlers.

[R!TTER]

As opposed to this stupid fanboy/girl obsession about making him out to be better than he is? His bowling is not better away than say Jadeja; his batting is at best Shardul Thakur level. Thakur was picked because he did well against Oz and that one test in England. Thakur has also regressed since then. If you want to exaggerate, don't be surprised if someone calls you out on that! Overall, he's a better spinner, but not by so much outside India.

Edited September 24, 2024 by R!TTER

[Majestic]

53 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

While true that in some games we wasted the extra bowler spot, one reason we didn't go with him is his batting average; don't bring up his overall stats, especially those hundreds against WI, because he has averaged 13 since 2020 away in S.E.N.A. Another reason is his bowling has also gone down; he was outbowled by Bhai in 4th test Eng 2018 and he did nothing in SA 2021 (22?) either! His batting is highly overrated away; take that Sydney innings out, and you'll struggle to name another good one against strong teams 

What! He averages 13 in SENA with bat. But @sensible-indian says that he has won 4-5 test series away from home with bat 

[R!TTER]

Slightly wrong filter, here's the one I was talking about -

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Home or away away (home of opposition)  or neutral venue

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2020

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 20

Ordered by batting - bowling average (descending)

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
RA Jadeja	2020-2024	11	476	104	29.75	1	20	4/62	32.35	0	6	0	-2.59
SN Thakur	2021-2023	9	327	67	19.23	0	30	7/61	28.53	1	3	0	-9.29
JJ Bumrah	2020-2024	16	190	34*	9.50	0	64	6/61	24.34	3	6	0	-14.84
R Ashwin	2020-2023	9	208	46	13.00	0	23	4/55	31.00	0	3	0	-17.99
Mohammed Shami	2020-2023	12	217	56*	12.05	0	40	5/44	30.77	1	4	0	-18.71
Mohammed Siraj	2020-2024	13	52	13	4.33	0	48	6/15	30.33	2	7	0	-25.99

Edited September 24, 2024 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

Suddenly Thakur > Ashwin because of this filter  Thakur fanboy here.

[R!TTER]

Are you paid to post this cr@p? Thakur was picked because of his slightly better batting and better bowling in seam-friendly conditions; how hard is that to understand?

Edited September 24, 2024 by R!TTER

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Are you paid to post this cr@p? Thakur was pikced because of his slightly better batting and better bowling in seam friendly conditions; how hard is that to understand?

 

What better batting? how many centuries he has scored? Seriously. Are you that stupid? He has a century and fifer 4 times in his career. Only Botham has more. I don't consider him as genuine all rounder either. But you picked a 5 test filter and tried to prove Thakur is  a better all rounder than Ashwin. That too when he was going through a very bad patch.  He has same number of Test 100s as MSD. It is not about defending. But i have noticed you. Even when he does well you find a way to put him down by comparing with Moeen ali, Thakur, Jadeja what not. He is rated because he is the biggest match winner for India. His stat and clutch performances prove. I don't give  a rats ass what you think of Ashwin. Don't have to prove anything to you.

Edited September 24, 2024 by vvvslaxman

[Gollum]

40 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

I'm talking about his overall avg in all 4 major away test nations; it's barely +4 above what Bumrah does with the bat in the same time frame, post 2020, so no, the argument doesn't hold well.

He didn't play on the flat Eng pitches of 2021. Only on extremely pace friendly, low scoring RSA ones. 

[R!TTER]

We're talking about games played outside India; if you aren't paid, you should try contacting him for this Nadia Comăneci-level mental gymnastics! You said he wasn't picked in English 6 tests in a trot—it was the same year when we toured Oz, and Thakur had a major role in 2 wins—in Oz and in England. His batting/bowling has gone down, so he's not really on anyone's radar. Ashwin's batting was always overrated overseas; if you want to bring up a team that hasn't defeated us since 2002, be my guest—but they've been glorified minnows for a long time now!

4 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

I don't give  a rats ass what you think of Ashwin. Don't have to prove anything to you.

Yeah, good to know who's arse you give about. It's really annoying listening/trying to reason with the ethical mind's fangirls. They run away every time he underperforms & swarm up after every good performance at home. 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Gollum said:

He didn't play on the flat Eng pitches of 2021. Only on extremely pace friendly, low scoring RSA ones. 

 

Oval is one of the most subcontinent batsmen friendly pitch you can see. Srilanka proved once again by beating them. They batted so comfortably. Thakur made 3 fifties at the oval. Failed at Birmingham and nOttingham registering single digits. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, R!TTER said:

We're talking about games played outside India; if you aren't paid, you should try contacting him for this Nadia Comăneci-level mental gymnastics! You said he wasn't picked in English 6 tests in a trot—it was the same year when we toured Oz, and Thakur had a major role in 2 wins—in Oz and in England. His batting/bowling has gone down, so he's not really on anyone's radar. Ashwin's batting was always overrated overseas; if you want to bring up a team that hasn't defeated us since 2002, be my guest—but they've been glorified minnows for a long time now!

Yeah, good to know who's arse you give about. It's really annoying listening/trying to reason with the ethical mind's fangirls. They run away every time he underperforms & swarm up after every good performance at home. 

Dude. I am a fan of match winners. He is a geniue match winner. If you don't recognize that then there is something wrong with you.  He and Jaddu both are match winners. I am not using Ashwin to put down jaddu like you do. I rate them both.  So i am not sure who the fan girl here is. SHould we call you Jadeja fan girl?

[Majestic]

I can't deny that Ashwin is arguably the greatest match winner ever in home conditions. He is also dominant in West Indies and Sri Lanka and makes a claim to be a genuine all rounder as well in home conditions, Windies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

 

However, his record in SENA is very questionable, a lot of this is down to poor record till 2015 and playing the last series in South Africa where the conditions were seamer friendly and he replaced Jadeja who was injured.

 

He disappointed me through twice in South Africa, one was back in 2014 when he let South Africa almost chase 458 in final innings of the test. The other one was the 2nd test at Supersports Park in 2018 series, it was labelled by Morne Morkel as more subcontinental type conditions and Ashwin opened the bowling in second innings but still could hardly make any impact. In the last SA series, there was no change in fortune either.

 

Ashwin in Australia was good but he was behind Siraj, who in my opinion was the best bowler of the series. He was probably lucky that he didn't had to play in Gabba, otherwise his series average would have taken a hit. That is a seamer friendly pitch and doesn't have much for spinners.

 

Overall, I will say that he can be labelled as ATG cricketer because he atleast has a claim to be pivotal in test series win in Australia and his absolutely freakish record in India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and West Indies where he even overshadows Jadeja who is a beast himself puts him in the league of ATG cricketers. Purely on bowling, I am not very sure yet.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Majestic

[R!TTER]

Pretty much all big away teams have made sure not to give India any kind of sporting/flat/spinning decks to make sure we have no advantages over there! But it's partially our fault as well; you can't tell me the tracks in India over the last 10-15 years have not been spin-friendly! And this is where Ashwin fangirls cry as well when pointed out that spin tracks+DRS has helped him a lot - which is true! Why are matter of facts need to be argued against? Home conditions have helped him more, than say 1990-2010, but away conditions have worked against him.

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, Majestic said:

I can't deny that Ashwin is arguably the greatest match winner ever in home conditions. He is also dominant in West Indies and Sri Lanka and makes a claim to be a genuine all rounder as well in home conditions, Windies, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

 

However, his record in SENA is very questionable, a lot of this is down to poor record till 2015 and playing the last series in South Africa where the conditions were seamer friendly and he replaced Jadeja who was injured.

 

He disappointed me through twice in South Africa, one was back in 2014 when he let South Africa almost chase 458 in final innings of the test. The other one was the 2nd test at Supersports Park in 2018 series, it was labelled by Morne Morkel as more subcontinental type conditions and Ashwin opened the bowling in second innings but still could hardly make any impact. In the last SA series, there was no change in fortune either.

 

Ashwin in Australia was good but he was behind Siraj, who in my opinion was the best bowler of the series. He was probably lucky that he didn't had to play in Gabba, otherwise his series average would have taken a hit. That is a seamer friendly pitch and doesn't have much for spinners.

 

Overall, I will say that he can be labelled as ATG cricketer because he atleast has a claim to be pivotal in test series win in Australia and his absolutely freakish record in India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and West Indies where he even overshadows Jadeja who is a beast himself puts him in the league of ATG cricketers. Purely on bowling, I am not very sure yet.

 

 

since Ash debut

In England (including WTC final) Ashwin missed  14 matches out of 21

In SA  he missed 4 out of 13 matches

In NZ  he missed  3 out of 4 matches

In Aus he missed 6 out of 16 matches

Essentially he missed 27 tests out of 54 tests in SENA. That is  50%.  He averages 28 in England. He averages 32 in Australia. Even in one innings he played in NZ he took 3 for 60.  Only place where he failed was SA. Could have been better for 4 dropped catch in an innings of his bowling. Doesn't matter. Spinners go there only to support. In the last series in SA 111 out of 114 wickets fell from both sides went to seamers. So yes. They could have dropped Ashwin in SA. We always get the ultra fast seaming pitches there anyway. But based on this sporadic inclusion over a period of 13 years we draw a conclusion he is just a HTB. 

 

INdia beat SL in SL 2-1 in 2015 dismissing sanga 4 out of  4 times. Should have been 3-0 but for dropped catch. Ashwin man of the series. Same Srilankan team next year blanked Australia 3-0. He is going to light up where he is the key bowler. In SENA our strategy changed to 4+1. So he had to make way despite topping the WTC charts for most wickets of 71. That is fine. But they could have played him selectively. Still based on inconsistent selection we cannot put him down. He would have found a way me thinks.

[vvvslaxman]

SENA filter is not a useful filter especially for spinners.  If seamers fail  or batsmen fail you can question them. 

[Gollum]

4 hours ago, Suhaan said:

Who hypes them?i despise those thugs

A recent thread. But anyway leave it bro, don't want to have bad blood with fellow Indian posters, they aren't vicious trolls, just have strong opinions. 

[rkt.india]

6 hours ago, Majestic said:

Spot on.

 

Against major test nations away from home( West Indies, New Zealand, Australia, England and India), Imran has 184 wickets in 47 test at average of 26.

 

Against major test nations away from home( SENAP),Ashwin has 71 wickets in 25 tests at average of 39.

 

The gulf is massive.

You are comparing a fast bowler bowling in fast bowling friendly conditions of Senaw to a spinny bowling in mostly unhelpful conditions for spinners. 

[Majestic]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

You are comparing a fast bowler bowling in fast bowling friendly conditions of Senaw to a spinny bowling in mostly unhelpful conditions for spinners. 

If Imran can pick plenty of wickets per match on average in Asia at a healthy average, why can't Ashwin do the same in SENA?

Edited September 24, 2024 by Majestic