Have we given up on Raina-the test batsman

[SLICKR392]

You forgot ODI series 2008 where Mendis was making merry and Raina was the one who played him best' date=' even Murli. [b']He had 100 in his debut series against Murli. The bold part is what creates problem against Swann to lefties, the defense. He will breach the defense of most lefties once he batsmen go into defense mode because most batsmen dont read the turn or no turn and they become LBW and bowled candidates which he thrives on.

There was no Murali in his debut innings.

[rkt.india]

Variations as in speed or length & line?

no. Variations of turn or no turn which are not intentional without any grip change which create doubt whether bowl will turn or come with angle, batsman plays for turn got struck on pad or bowled, batsmen play for no turn, gets edges. This is the most important aspect of Swann's bowling to lefties because they do not know which ball is going to turn which not.

[rkt.india]

There was no Murali in his debut innings.

Murli was not there, does not matter. He was the one broke the shackles against Mendis and Murli's spin in 2008 ODI series. Moreover, here we are not talking about Raina, but Gambhir against Swann in middle order.

[Lord]

no. Variations of turn or no turn which are not intentional without any grip change which create doubt whether bowl will turn or come with angle' date=' batsman plays for turn got struck on pad or bowled, batsmen play for no turn, gets edges. This is the most important aspect of Swann's bowling to lefties because they do not know which ball is going to turn which not.[/quote'] then that should create doubts in RHBs too,no?:hmmm:

[Old guy]

then that should create doubts in RHBs too' date='no?:hmmm:[/quote'] angle makes it easier it never turned the other way but when he is from around the wicket one can come in with line one go away with spin

[SLICKR392]

Murli was not there' date=' does not matter. He was the one broke the shackles against Mendis and Murli's spin in 2008 ODI series. Moreover, here we are not talking about Raina, but Gambhir against Swann in middle order.[/quote'] We will have to see about that. Gambhir will handle Swann or any other spinner pretty well down the order IMO. He plays with the turn well and does pick any sort of variations aswell.

[rkt.india]

then that should create doubts in RHBs too' date='no?:hmmm:[/quote'] No. Because he does not turn the ball away from righties or bowls doosra, balls turning in are easier in case of right handers than balls going away in case of left handers and he bowls from round the wicket to lefties and from that angle not every ball turns which is not the case for right handers. His record tells you everything he averages 20 against left handers, 35+ against right handers.

[putrevus]

He is one of the best player of spin in ODIs' date=' not it tests. There is no left handed batsman who has not been troubled by Swann in test matches because of his natural variation which they cannot read because they are natural which creates doubts. Raina was the victim of that and even Raina used to be one of the best batsmen of spin before that.[/quote'] When did Swann trouble Gambhir, Gambhir owned him in 2008 series, he got out once in England in oval tests and ther is no indication that Swann has mastery over Gambhir. Span Mat Inns Overs Mdns Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 unfiltered 2008-2012 46 83 1932.2 374 5681 192 6/65 10/181 29.58 2.93 60.3 13 2 Profile filtered 2008-2012 37 96 2614.4 554 7176 342 6/65 10/181 20.98 2.74 45.8 30 2 this stat however showa he taken 320 wickets against lefties and avg of 20. There is something wrong here http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/20431.html?batting_hand=2;class=1;filter=advanced;template=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_list Swann has taken 192 total wickets and he has taken 96 wickets of Lefties at avg of 26 and 96 righties at an avg of 35. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/20431.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling;view=dismissal_summary

[Lord]

angle makes it easier it never turned the other way but when he is from around the wicket one can come in with line one go away with spin

for righties,one can go on straight n get the outside edge n one can spin sharply n get inside edge,or bowled through the gate or LBW,no?

[Old guy]

for righties' date='one can go on straight n get the outside edge n one can spin sharply n get inside edge,or bowled through the gate or LBW,no?[/quote'] no cos its goes straight .. not spins away see him bowl from over the wicket to righthanders ball will always come in.. question is how much.. good players can cover this very easily but with lefties from around the wicket ball can jsut come in with angle and hit stumps and spin away and take edge

[rkt.india]

for righties' date='one can go on straight n get the outside edge n one can spin sharply n get inside edge,or bowled through the gate or LBW,no?[/quote'] It still easier than handling the ball turning away. Against the ball turning in, batsman can mostly play for turn, batting on off stump guard even if ball goes straight, it will the stumps.

[Lord]

in the matches where Swann has dismissed Gambhir,Gambhir averages 64.not too bad. Raina averages 2.50

[Fontaine]

Exactly and UG I expect you to come up with the real reason why he couldnot execute the shot and missed it by such a margin. I think its because of his rear end hitting role in ODIs and T20s where he has to come out and start bashing. He never learnt to build an innings and hence play the ball on merit. He could have done it early in his career but was ruined by team management who exploited his big hitting capabilities by sending him down the order as a hitter. His game was never allowed to develop.

This is exactly the kind of excuse that has no place in international cricket. International cricket is not about developing talent but refining it through experience. It's up to the cricketer to learn how to play with the best technique/tempremant and that's typically done at an earlier stage in their career. Not the team/captain/coaches/board etc. That's the opposite to the approach we have with fast bowlers and look how badly that turns out. If any young bowler shows any kind of ability/pace (Khan, Sree, Pathan, Ishant, Munaf, RP etc etc) then they're immediately "fast-tracked" to the team instead of letting them develop/grow their ability in FC/domestic season. Instead those young bowlers are left to develop under the pressures of international cricket against top class batsmen where even seasoned top bowlers can struggle at times.

[carnish]

This is exactly the kind of excuse that has no place in international cricket. International cricket is not about developing talent but refining it through experience. It's up to the cricketer to learn how to play with the best technique/tempremant and that's typically done at an earlier stage in their career. Not the team/captain/coaches/board etc. That's the opposite to the approach we have with fast bowlers and look how badly that turns out. If any young bowler shows any kind of ability/pace (Khan, Sree, Pathan, Ishant, Munaf, RP etc etc) then they're immediately "fast-tracked" to the team instead of letting them develop/grow their ability in FC/domestic season. Instead those young bowlers are left to develop under the pressures of international cricket against top class batsmen where even seasoned top bowlers can struggle at times.

Exactly my Point .. Raina was fasttracked and then made to play in useless ODI tournaments where he had to slog at the death. He never got full oppourtunities to refine his art at domestic level. He is playing since 7 years in Indian ODI series and I dont remember him ,missing much due to injuries.

[Lord]

Exactly my Point .. Raina was fasttracked and then made to play in useless ODI tournaments where he had to slog at the death. He never got full oppourtunities to refine his art at domestic level. He is playing since 7 years in Indian ODI series and I dont remember him ' date='missing much due to injuries.[/quote'] Raina played his test after playing 50 odd FC matches,roughly same as Pujara n Rahane.hows that an excuse for Raina

[carnish]

Raina played his test after playing 50 odd FC matches' date='roughly same as Pujara n Rahane.hows that an excuse for Raina[/quote'] YUP but then he had to play 100 useless ODIs slogging and hitting at the depth and then one or two seasons of IPL doing the same before he got a sighter in Tests. So all the good work done in domestics were ruined when you dont keep in touch with one format of the game for 2-3 years and play just the shorter format. And I dont think Raina ever played too many domestic games after getting into the ODI side

[G_B_]

Raina more than anything needs a season abroad in the domestics of England Aus or Sa Thats the only way i can see him improving if at all. To be fair to him, in this series he has been out to the spinners twice and one to a pacer. On most occasions he threw his wicket away. Twice playing some stupid/loose shots down the legside. To his credit he did handle the bouncers well v NZ at bangalore in the first innings. Still dont think he is test material though.

[GautiMaan]

Has everyone given up on Yuvraj the test batsman?:((

[Lord]

YUP but then he had to play 100 useless ODIs slogging and hitting at the depth and then one or two seasons of IPL doing the same before he got a sighter in Tests. So all the good work done in domestics were ruined when you dont keep in touch with one format of the game for 2-3 years and play just the shorter format. And I dont think Raina ever played too many domestic games after getting into the ODI side

so wen do u think he played those 50 FC games I'm talking about.surely in-between no?

[vvvslaxman]

Has everyone given up on Yuvraj the test batsman?:((

Temperamentwise Yuvraj is okay. But his fishing outside the off stump, defense against pace and spin are huge weaknesses. Those are the things that cause failures in Test cricket more often than not.