India's greatest test cricket captain: Ganguly vs Dhoni

[Vikas Bhatt]

Can anyone forget how selfish captain Sachin dropped an a promising Ganguly in form to accomodate his chaddi buddy Kambli against Pak for 3 matches in Sahara Cup 1st edition and how Kambli failed in all 3 and costing India a 3-2 defeat? In the next edition that India won 4-1 Ganguly was the man of series leading India to a 4-1 win with both runs and wickets single handedly, forcing SRT to applaud him by calling Ganguly his secret weapon against Pak? It was in 1999 Sahara Cup edition against WI, after Kargil forced cancellation of India-Pak matches that Ganguly first captained and won the series.

[Gambit]

Can anyone forget how selfish captain Sachin dropped an a promising Ganguly in form to accomodate his chaddi buddy Kambli against Pak for 3 matches in Sahara Cup 1st edition and how Kambli failed in all 3 and costing India a 3-2 defeat? In the next edition that India won 4-1 Ganguly was the man of series leading India to a 4-1 win with both runs and wickets single handedly' date= forcing SRT to applaud him by calling Ganguly his secret weapon against Pak? It was in 1999 Sahara Cup edition against WI, after Kargil forced cancellation of India-Pak matches that Ganguly first captained and won the series.

Ganguly played 3 out of those 5 games. India won 1 and lost 1 in the games he didn't play. Ganguly had an average of 23 in the three games he played. And Kambli played 4 not all 5 of that series.

[Crookbond]

Even before WC confidence of the team was down. Out batsmen were horribly out of form and it was reflected in first 2 matches. ODI batting line-up consisting of Sehwag' date=' SRT, Yuvi, Ganguly, Dravid couldn't play 50 overs for 10 consecutive matches and lost home series against WI 4-3, away series against NZ 5-2 with later being one of the worst series for Ganguly as captain.[/quote'] The reason we performed well in that WC was not the batting firing, it was the bowling firing. Same reason we lost the finals too. India had 3 bowlers in the Top 10 wicket takers for WC 2003. Averaging 20 or less for all them! This should be some kind of a record/anamoly. No code has to be inserted here.

[saneindian]

Can anyone forget how selfish captain Sachin dropped an a promising Ganguly in form to accomodate his chaddi buddy Kambli against Pak for 3 matches in Sahara Cup 1st edition and how Kambli failed in all 3 and costing India a 3-2 defeat? In the next edition that India won 4-1 Ganguly was the man of series leading India to a 4-1 win with both runs and wickets single handedly' date= forcing SRT to applaud him by calling Ganguly his secret weapon against Pak? It was in 1999 Sahara Cup edition against WI, after Kargil forced cancellation of India-Pak matches that Ganguly first captained and won the series.

The series was tied 2-2 and in the decider Kambli did not play where as Dada played that match. So how exactly did Kambli contribute to the 3-2 loss? What you are perhaps forgetting in your hate is that Ganguly was a newbie having made his test debut 3-4 months ago in England and hardly played ODIs before Toronto series in 1996. Kambli, on the other hand, was a regular in the ODI side for the last 3-4 years, had done decently in the WC that year and it was natural that he got preference over a youngster in such a high profile series.

[G_B_]

this debate depends on the types of team at disposal and the general cricketing environment. i would say Ganguly in the tests while Dhoni in the ODIs. Ganguly benefited from Sachin Dravid and Laxman in their prime. But was handicapped by Aussies being the most dominant side undisputed in all formats. Dhoni had these ageing stars but benefited from no real dominant source of power in test and ODI cricket. On the whole i would say Ganguly. When Ganguly inherited the team we forget that the team was in a mess due to match fixing scandals. It was total disarray back then. Dhoni got the captaincy when Dravid had stepped down after beating england. It was not that turbulent a time.

[vvvslaxman]

in that case while dada was the captain,there were no odi beasts like raina,dhoni,kohli..even yuvi wasnt that great + there were no powerplays,ipl was not introduced nor t20`s so batsmen didnt use to blast like these years..odi`s have changed a lot from ganguly`s time to dhoni`s time.. while msd is a good odi captain,this team is far superior than the one durin 2000-05

It is not like only INdia is benefitted from power play these days. Everyone does. And second of all Indian bowling was rarely an issue. zaheer picked 128 wickes under Ganguly in 87 matches at an average of 27.39. Ajit Akgar 116 wickets at 29.26. Bhajji 96 wicket sat 31.52. Srinath 62 wickets at 26.46 Under Dhoni best ODI bowler was Ishant staistically. averagng 29.16 but an ER of 5.59. Pretty much everyone had ER over 5 bar Ashwin and Bhajji. In every which way bowling that was at his disposal was better than what Dhoni has. Also think about how much exposure gets of Indian bowling in the IPL.

[adi B]

Opener problem in ODIs during Ganguly's time? What are you talking about? We had Ganguly and Tendulkar and later Sehwag. That was best opening pair from late 90s to early 2000s. Only 3 finals. We lost against SA, NZ, SL, WI, SL, SA, Aus, Aus, SL, SL in same order. Only Pakistan (couldn't reach final in 2000 tri-series), England (failed to win bilateral series against them at home), Zimbabwe (somehow managed to save home series against them, thanks to Yuvi and Badani), Kenya, Bangladesh are the teams against which we didn't lose finals. You're trying to sound as if we were second best team in the world and lost because aussies were too strong.

yaar u are saying as if we were world beaters and it was a crime to lose the finals..in the late 90`s we were piss poor in odi`s.. i was so fecking surprised we began to reach finals of icc global tournaments,tri series etc,considering how poor we were just a couple years back from that time, yes we lost many finals,but indian cricket fans,the indian cricket team itself developed a belief that they would do well ...we developed game winning instinct,it was a team building process.. see now, we are a powerhouse in onedays,the process of reaching finals started then..now we are winning cups..nothing to be ashamed of those previous losses.. pardon my couple of incorrect facts,yaar mood off hai, fedex haar gaya :((

[adi B]

It is not like only INdia is benefitted from power play these days. Everyone does. And second of all Indian bowling was rarely an issue. zaheer picked 128 wickes under Ganguly in 87 matches at an average of 27.39. Ajit Akgar 116 wickets at 29.26. Bhajji 96 wicket sat 31.52. Srinath 62 wickets at 26.46 Under Dhoni best ODI bowler was Ishant staistically. averagng 29.16 but an ER of 5.59. Pretty much everyone had ER over 5 bar Ashwin and Bhajji. In every which way bowling that was at his disposal was better than what Dhoni has. Also think about how much exposure gets of Indian bowling in the IPL.

so is that ganguly`s fault that bowler especially fast bowlers have not performed well under dhoni..though i agree to an extent that bowlers are going for runs in the era of pp`s..but its also true dhoni is not a great manager of fast bowlers

[saneindian]

yaar u are saying as if we were world beaters and it was a crime to lose the finals..in the late 90`s we were piss poor in odi`s.. i was so fecking surprised we began to reach finals of icc global tournaments,tri series etc,considering how poor we were just a couple years back from that time, yes we lost many finals,but indian cricket fans,the indian cricket team itself developed a belief that they would do well ...we developed game winning instinct,it was a team building process.. see now, we are a powerhouse in onedays,the process of reaching finals started then..now we are winning cups..nothing to be ashamed of those previous losses.. pardon my couple of incorrect facts,yaar mood off hai, fedex haar gaya :((

Late 90s we won the Titan Cup, Independence Cup in Dhaka, Coca Cola Cup in Sharjah once beating Aussies and then beating Zimbabwe (other team was Lanka)... There goes your theroy of India not reaching finals or being piss poor in ODIs :)

[Vikas Bhatt]

yaar u are saying as if we were world beaters and it was a crime to lose the finals..in the late 90`s we were piss poor in odi`s..:((

Won 5 finals in one year under Azharuddin. SRT won the Titan Cup final as captain. Won a few bilaterals too in that time. We only like forgot the art of winning finals since 1999......Till then we won 10 under Azhar alone - then a world record till the Waughs and Pontings came along with the strongest Aus team in history.

[maniac]

Opener problem in ODIs during Ganguly's time? What are you talking about? We had Ganguly and Tendulkar and later Sehwag. That was best opening pair from late 90s to early 2000s. .

Look at the revolving door policy for Test openers during his time....Infact Even under Dravid...there were various combos like Jaffar,Karthik etc....Only under Dhoni have we had a steady opening combination across all formats.

[Vikas Bhatt]

The series was tied 2-2 and in the decider Kambli did not play where as Dada played that match. So how exactly did Kambli contribute to the 3-2 loss? What you are perhaps forgetting in your hate is that Ganguly was a newbie having made his test debut 3-4 months ago in England and hardly played ODIs before Toronto series in 1996. Kambli, on the other hand, was a regular in the ODI side for the last 3-4 years, had done decently in the WC that year and it was natural that he got preference over a youngster in such a high profile series.

I didn't speak from hate. Not in any context. Just shot off from memory. It happened so long ago, so some details didn't pan out properly in the post. But I remember the shock and controversy SRT's actions as captain generated. seemed damned partisan to everybody else.

[Vikas Bhatt]

made this post a year back I think in a similar thread after winning the WC: Dhoni will go down as the greatest captain in our history. It is already sealed now. But Dhoni did not become a successful captain overnight, nor did he build it out of thin air. The foundation of his team came from Ganguly/Dravid days. After the Ashes defeat at home in 1980s when Aus cricket was in doldrums, Allan Border started a process of team building. It had it's ups and downs but he built a team for the future and gave them a sense of confidence. he was followed by Mark Taylor who turned that same team into a World Champion side. Players like Steve Waugh, Mark Waugh, Shane Warne, Craig McDermott, Glenn McGrath etc were found or prospered during this time. Steve Waugh inherited a side that was world beating and took it's confidence to ruthless heights and this was carried on by Ponting till he lost all his great players overnight to retirements. Now that same Ponting couldn't win games against good teams even at home and this too was not overnight decline. The foundation for that decline was the 2 years of retirements and inability to replace such talents. In Indian context, we didn't achieve too much after the 1983 WC win. But the process started under Azharuddin. We found players like SRT, Kumble, Srinath, Dravid, Ganguly, Laxman, Bhajji etc. and started beating worlds's best at home. We were unbeatable at home under him. That was step 1. It was under Ganguly the more serious transition happened. Like from Border to Taylor, we developed under Ganguly a team that could win abroad [our greatest weakness]. Suddenly we were not losing travelers ridiculed by opposition. No longer paper tigers successful only at home. We were capable of beating the best away too and we found a new respect. Under Dravid we started converting those off wins abroad into series wins. We started getting more ruthless in one day games. Players like Yuvraj, Raina, Zaheer, Sreesanth, Sehwag, Bhajji and Dhoni himself were found and/or developed during this time even as the Dravids, Laxmans, Gangulys, Kumble and SRT got better. Like Border, ganguly also took us to a WC final in alien conditions and made us more respected. We lost to a world champion side who was on a ruthless roll unfortunately. And under Dhoni now we have finally turned the corner and become world beaters and champions. The same set of players at his disposal have not become such champions overnight. They have all come through the process and learnt from their mistakes and worked at their game and it all started since Ganguly gave them the confidence to do better abroad and not just in India, the belief top fight fire with fire and to compete with the best anywhere. Azharuddin won more titles than Ganguly in one dayers, 5 in 1998 alone, but can anyone say he was a better captain than him? Dhoni may have got the build the highrise skyscrapper, but Ganguly laid the foundation to hold it and Dravid added the first 2 floors to build upon it. The current team would not have been possible without Ganguly and we would not be confident unit had we not won those tests in Aus, SA, WI, Zim, Eng, SL and Pak under him and Dravid. This team would not have been carrying that much self belief. If a captain could turn a side into a champion side overnight, Ponting would still be leading a number 1 team today and WI would not be such a joke side. Dhoni is getting good results off the good hard work Ganguly put in. The way Steve Waugh benefited from Taylor's hard work and the way Ponting benefited from Steve Waugh's legacy. This whole comparison is most unfair and does great disservice to both Ganguly and his protege Dhoni. There is a reason that despite Ponting and Steve Waugh's better records and superior results, Mark Taylor is still regarded as the best captain among the 3. Because he did all the hard work of shaping a side from a scratch and left behind a great side that could only get better and tougher to beat ahead. Dhoni got a side that was ready, tested and on the verge of greatness and he like Waugh Sr. and Ponting had an easy job in making it a bit ruthless. Currently with Aus, NZ, Zim, WI and Pak in complete down slide, the competition is not that good unlike Ganguly's time when most teams were in top form one way or another. Back then even Zimboks gave us a good fight, NZ was still unbeatable at home when we toured and despite Pak being a weaker side than their past masters we still went neck to neck against them and couldn't win more. England under Vaughan looked like the next number 1 and SA as usual still had the woods under us. WI still had Lara and an air of respect. Lankans with Jayasurya and Murali at peak were still a feared one day unit. Ganguly's side faced more tougher opponents than what those same teams look like now and went through fire most of the time. Dhoni's real test will begin once SRT, Dravid and Laxman retire when his test team will stand exposed and go through a rebuilding phase. Winning a WC cannot be an indication to judge a captain without judging the conditions and circumstances of his situation. For example Ponting won 2 WCs without losing a single match and Waugh one before him. Taylor before Waugh lost the WC final in 1996. Yet a majority of the Aussies respect Taylor ahead of both Waugh and Ponting. They believe that the Aussie side led by Waugh and Ponting with Gilchrist, Hayden, Warne and McGrath was so complete and devastating that no captain was needed to lead them and that any idiot could lead the side. They credit Taylor highly for creating that side in the first place. They don't belittle his foundation work by putting Ponting on a higher pedestal then him, just because he has won 2 WCs more than anyone else. Dhoni had a ready team and didn't need to build upon it but you have to look at the conditions when Ganguly became captain. India was rocked by the matchfixing scandal that claimed Azharuddin, Mongia, Malik, Jadeja, Hansie Cronje among others. Indian cricket was at an all time low with public confidence in it's heroes shattered and at it's lowest. Sachin Tendulkar was completely shattered and disillusioned to quit captaincy on his own. The legend was was highly demoralized. The pressure led India to lose 5 consecutive tests under him against Aus away and at home against SA. Every game was suspect in public eyes as is the case with Pak now. Ganguly took over the crown of thorns when no one wanted it. He had to raise his players, team, faith of billions of us fans, of motivating Sachin among others and turn things around for India. He had the challenge of walking that difficult path, of pulling the Indian team from the quagmire and depths of suspicion to a WC finalist side that beat most teams away from home in a relatively short time. His was the only team that thrashed the champions Aus again and again when others were getting whitewashed by them regularly. Most importantly he had to restore public faith back in our team and also deliver results. No Indian team had won either a one day or a test series in Pak before. Ganguly achieved both in 2004. Dhoni did not have to start all over from such dire circumstances as captain. I don't mind acknowledging Dhoni's achievements and would like to enjoy his ride as captain as much as I enjoyed Azhar's, SRT, Ganguly, Kumble and Dravid's rides. But to underestimate the achievements of past masters like Ganguly over mere statistics which never present a true picture is deplorable. Such polls do a great disservice to Indian cricket and fans who should enjoy all the successes we see without condescending specific achievements. India may have got that WC winning confidence in Dhoni perhaps, but they got that confidence of winning it against a World Champion team under Kapil first, of dreaming for overseas respect, a rise from ashes, to dream and hope for making it to another WC final and getting into a final again under Ganguly. Lets not allow such petty arguments to spoil good memories and rubbish achievements under past captains in such a silly manner. Every generation has a captain and a team who represents the hopes of that age and era and here there can never be any comparison. The day fans start fighting over their own teams achievements led by different captains is the day our cricket loses.

[Vikas Bhatt]

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=1420052#post1420052

[Yoda-esque]

Would have voted Ganguly but he turned into a manager (:giggle:) from a leader. Dhoni still leads by example. Dravid led by example. So Dhoni and Dravid above Saurav for me.

[The Dark Horse]

Would have voted Ganguly but he turned into a manager (:giggle:) from a leader.

:cantstop:

[Laaloo]

Would have voted Ganguly but he turned into a manager (:giggle:) from a leader. Dhoni still leads by example. Dravid led by example. So Dhoni and Dravid above Saurav for me.

How does Dhoni lead by example in Tests? I understand ODIS, but in Tests?

[The Outsider]

How does Dhoni lead by example in Tests? I understand ODIS' date=' but in Tests?[/quote'] He sets the example that slips should stand 30 yards back to Pravin Kumar.:hysterical:

[Laaloo]

He sets the example that slips should stand 30 yards back to Pravin Kumar.:hysterical:

Or setting the 7th/8th ranked opposition 600 runs to win!! Or restraining your fast bowlers when he's almost leading your team to a test series victory. Test Cricket is fun cricket B->B->

[The Outsider]

Or setting the 7th/8th ranked opposition 600 runs to win!! Or restraining your fast bowlers when he's almost leading your team to a test series victory. Test Cricket is fun cricket B->B->

Away matches are only for practice since we play 80% of cricket in subcontinent. B->