India's bowling not a new problem

[rkt.india]

The defeat at the Wankhede Stadium last week was arguably India's worst in Test cricket. Not in terms of margin, but in how almost everything was stacked in their favour: the pitch, the toss, the combination, the runs. The illusion they have tried to create through countless interviews that they were done in on "green tops" and they were still world-beaters at home has come crashing down. If ever there was a match set up for the bowlers to win, it was this, with 327 on board on square turner. And as it has been happening over the last 18 months, India's bowlers came up short again; in the case of their lead spinner's length, literally so. Starting July 21 last year, India have been the worst bowling unit of all Test sides bar Bangladesh. At least statistically so. Not only have they averaged 40.39 with the ball, better only than Bangladesh, they have give away more runs per over than any Test side over that period. And whisper it, for most of this period India have bowled on "green tops". With the bat, their average - 30.80 - is better than that of Sri Lanka, New Zealand, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Needless to say, they have lost more Tests than any other side over the period. There is no denying that India's batting hasn't been ideal over this period, but it has neither been as bad as the bowling nor as crucial to this slump. If Test cricket were a spin bowler, batting would be its line and bowling its length. The former optional, the latter mandatory. Pakistan are a glaring example. Even during their most turbulent period, with non-existent batting and wicketkeeping, they have still managed to survive as a Test side purely through their bowling. In 2010 alone, they won two Tests in England, as many as India have in 26 years. However, the main focus of most of the debates around India's defeats, even in Mumbai, has been around the batting. Even when India were No 1, the bowling hung by a thread. A brittle, not-always-fit, but highly skilful thread. The captain's statement that this thread was the Sachin Tendulkar of bowling was spot on. Ever since Zaheer Khan has gone into what seems like a terminal slump, all others have been brutally exposed. In the years the two to three years since Anil Kumble's retirement, Zaheer carried the bowling on his own. He brought the control the unit badly needed; when he was injured, India would look lost in the field. Zaheer is not the same any more. He has not even been there for six of those 15 Tests. With other bowlers, you never know what you will get. In Mumbai, for example, when Kevin Pietersen felt comfortable enough to boss the bowlers, chances are even the best would have suffered, but it was the easy period of easy singles that let him feel comfortable. That's where Indian spinners failed on two counts. On a pitch that was calling for them to exploit the turn, they didn't put in enough effort to spin the ball. Spin here is not just the sideways turn, but action on the ball, which gets you drift and dip. They didn't do it on purpose, it's their techniques. They don't put enough shoulder or hip behind the delivery, they have hardly any follow-through. R Ashwin, especially, ends up relying too much on his variations. In so doing, he bowls a release ball almost every over, which is the bowling unit's second shortcoming. MS Dhoni has copped a fair deal of criticism for his defensive fields over this period, but his bowlers haven't done him any favours with their inconsistency. The desperate part, though, is that there are no replacements in sight, except for a hospital ward full of tried-and-tested bowlers missing the Ranji Trophy. Which is why somebody like Harbhajan Singh can walk right back into the squad without having done anything at the domestic level to earn a comeback, although when he did make that comeback he bowled better than Ashwin and got only half the overs. Outside the squad, only Pankaj Singh and Jalaj Saxena have both the wickets and the fitness. Neither of them seems to enjoy the faith of the selectors and the team management. After Wankhede, Dhoni made what seems like a fair point on paper when asked about the direness of the situation. "I think we have got replacements," he said. "It's not like we don't have replacements. But you don't chop and change players on the basis of one or two Tests. We have to give them a fair run." Apart from the fair run, they also need a huge improvement, especially in their discipline.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/594524.html If you see only towards tried and tested bowlers, you will only get them. Must look at new upcoming bowlers.

[Chandan]

Starting July 21 last year, India have been the worst bowling unit of all Test sides bar Bangladesh. At least statistically so. Not only have they averaged 40.39 with the ball, better only than Bangladesh, they have give away more runs per over than any Test side over that period. And whisper it, for most of this period India have bowled on "green tops". With the bat, their average - 30.80 - is better than that of Sri Lanka, New Zealand, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe. Needless to say, they have lost more Tests than any other side over the period.

But it is just fashionable to blame the batsmen like Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, no? Who are the bowlers? Just nobody? The media just won't get the sensation that they want by blaming the bowling.

The captain's statement that this thread was the Sachin Tendulkar of bowling was spot on. Ever since Zaheer Khan has gone into what seems like a terminal slump, all others have been brutally exposed. In the years the two to three years since Anil Kumble's retirement, Zaheer carried the bowling on his own. He brought the control the unit badly needed; when he was injured, India would look lost in the field.

Ha! We have new bowlers now in Ashwin, Ojha, and Umesh. We just can't tell them to retire. So why put the blame?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/594524.html If you see only towards tried and tested bowlers, you will only get them. Must look at new upcoming bowlers.

Instead of this statement, why not suggest names?

[CG]

But it is just fashionable to blame the batsmen like Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, no? Who are the bowlers? Just nobody? The media just won't get the sensation that they want by blaming the bowling. Ha! We have new bowlers now in Ashwin, Ojha, and Umesh. We just can't tell them to retire. So why put the blame? Instead of this statement, why not suggest names?

1.If your batting lineup cant manage 300 more than a few times in tours of WI,Eng,Aus and get bowled out below 200 in india offcourse batsman should be blamed. 3.Shami ahmed,Pawan suyal.

[JaFanatic]

1.If your batting lineup cant manage 300 more than a few times in tours of WI,Eng,Aus and get bowled out below 200 in india offcourse batsman should be blamed. 3.Shami ahmed,Pawan suyal.

whats his pace?

[The Outsider]

But it is just fashionable to blame the batsmen like Sachin, Dravid, Laxman, Sehwag, no? Who are the bowlers? Just nobody? The media just won't get the sensation that they want by blaming the bowling.

Numbers can be twisted around to show pretty much anything and even the raw numbers show the Indian batting to be better than only New Zealand and Sri Lanka. But if you look beyond the raw numbers how many times in the 0-8 did the Indian batting put the team in a strong position? None. On the other hand the much maligned bowling put the team in a strong position at Trent Bridge and Melbourne just to watch the batsmen throw it away. They were struggling to score 200-300 runs on bonafide pattas like Oval, Sydney, and Adelaide. What do you expect the bowlers to do when the team is getting bowled out for 200 runs on tracks where the par score is 500? What can the bowlers do if the captain spreads out the field when you have the opposition at 50/3?

Ha! We have new bowlers now in Ashwin, Ojha, and Umesh. We just can't tell them to retire. So why put the blame?

What wrong have Yadav and Ojha done? Yadav bowled decently in Australia and was the best pace bowler at Ahmedabad. Ojha has been consistently good. Zaheer bowled well in Australia and has been decent at home.

[Number]

Numbers can be twisted around to show pretty much anything and even the raw numbers show the Indian batting to be better than only New Zealand and Sri Lanka. But if you look beyond the raw numbers how many times in the 0-8 did the Indian batting put the team in a strong position? None. On the other hand the much maligned bowling put the team in a strong position at Trent Bridge and Melbourne just to watch the batsmen throw it away. They were struggling to score 200-300 runs on bonafide pattas like Oval, Sydney, and Adelaide. What do you expect the bowlers to do when the team is getting bowled out for 200 runs on tracks where the par score is 500? What can the bowlers do if the captain spreads out the field when you have the opposition at 50/3? What wrong have Yadav and Ojha done? Yadav bowled decently in Australia and was the best pace bowler at Ahmedabad. Ojha has been consistently good. Zaheer bowled well in Australia and has been decent at home.

:hatsoff:

[rkt.india]

Instead of this statement, why not suggest names?

There are several fast bowlers in domestic cricket doing well. Pick them instead of tried and tested failures who do not have any desire left in them to come back strongly and do well but our selector invariably still pick the old tested failures, dont know on what basis. Even a rookie will do better than them. I have certain names and they might not be very exerienced in FC cricket and fast but they all can play for India and fast bowlers are always picjked ealry after a few FC matches when they are young and have the pace and desire to do well. You will rarely see fast bowler making test debut after several seasons of FC cricket. Potential test fast bowlers are always found early and drafted and groomed wiht the team.

[vvvslaxman]

Our batsmen struggled to cross 300 for a very long time during their abroad tour. If you can't achieve 300 runs even with 7 batsmen what can 4 bowlers do. Worst thing is some of those 300 runs came from the bat of tailenders. For good measure Ashwin had the 3rd highest average in Australia.

[maniac]

There are several fast bowlers in domestic cricket doing well. Pick them instead of tried and tested failures who do not have any desire left in them to come back strongly and do well but our selector invariably still pick the old tested failures, dont know on what basis. Even a rookie will do better than them. I have certain names and they might not be very exerienced in FC cricket and fast but they all can play for India and fast bowlers are always picjked ealry after a few FC matches when they are young and have the pace and desire to do well. You will rarely see fast bowler making test debut after several seasons of FC cricket. Potential test fast bowlers are always found early and drafted and groomed wiht the team.

There has to be a different way...guys like VK,Dinda and PK were given a go based on thier domestic performances and even though PK is not as bad...we all Know the quality of the other 2 atleast at test level.

[Eternal Atma]

True but our batsmen failed even on flat tracks..

[rkt.india]

There has to be a different way...guys like VK' date='Dinda and PK were given a go based on thier domestic performances and even though PK is not as bad...we all Know the quality of the other 2 atleast at test level.[/quote'] That is where they need to see and select ones who can do well at international level.

[maniac]

That is where they need to see and select ones who can do well at international level.

Here is the issue that even us fans who get carried away so fast need to keep in mind 1)what are the odds that someone will be of international standard at all formats just because he sends a few deliveries at 140k in the nets or even at trials. 2)what are the odds a guy will be successful when he has a proven track record at the domestic level 3)what are the odds if you hire someone with a proven track record of identifying talent I given a consultant role eg,someone like. T.A.Shekar I would go with option 3....then again what are the odds that bcci would make a desicions like that and even if they decide o go that route there are not many proven talent scouts in Indian cricket. This is what brings to my point I made a long time ago about professional talent scouts and agencies in India.....unfortunately TEnvic which is headed by a man I respect so much as a cricketer has been such a disaster.

[rkt.india]

Here is the issue that even us fans who get carried away so fast need to keep in mind 1)what are the odds that someone will be of international standard at all formats just because he sends a few deliveries at 140k in the nets or even at trials. 2)what are the odds a guy will be successful when he has a proven track record at the domestic level 3)what are the odds if you hire someone with a proven track record of identifying talent I given a consultant role eg,someone like. T.A.Shekar I would go with option 3....then again what are the odds that bcci would make a desicions like that and even if they decide o go that route there are not many proven talent scouts in Indian cricket. This is what brings to my point I made a long time ago about professional talent scouts and agencies in India.....unfortunately TEnvic which is headed by a man I respect so much as a cricketer has been such a disaster.

It is not all about 140K deliveries. It is about potential. Likes Pankaj even at 135 is a good prospect becuase he is tall and accurate. There is nothing guranteed in any aspect and we will have to takke a ount particualr guys who we think have potential to do well and have also done well in FC likes of Pankaj, Ishwar Pnadey, Shami Ahmed, Mohit Sharma, etc, as they are a their right age to be selected. They are not express or genuine quicks like Yadav and Aaron but have enough pace and ability to become good and even if they are selected they will not become world class overnight. Might only be 2 out 10 are successful and that too will take some time and patience. Regarding talent scout, scouting is continuously going on at different levels by MRF, by BCCI through open trials, by state, etc. What we need is a good bowling coach at NCA who can refine and guide the young bowlers age 16-22.

[The Outsider]

Mr. Monga, the top 6 is gone for 200 runs on a 450-500 par pitch - can you enlighten us about the role the old bowling problem played here?

[Crookbond]

Mr. Monga' date=' the top 6 is gone for 200 runs on a 450-500 par pitch - can you enlighten us about the role the old bowling problem played here?[/quote'] :hysterical: :hysterical: :hysterical:

[ganeshran]

Previously only bowling was mediocre and batting was strong to cover up the bowling weaknesses. Now both bowling and batting are mediocre

[Trichromatic]

Previously only bowling was mediocre and batting was strong to cover up the bowling weaknesses. Now both bowling and batting are mediocre

Which is more mediocre now? Batting or bowling?

[asterix]

Most toothless attack among the top test playing nations...

[Crookbond]

Which is more mediocre now? Batting or bowling?

It's like voting for a political party in India - both are cr@p.

[Lord]

Previously only bowling was mediocre and batting was strong to cover up the bowling weaknesses. Now both bowling and batting are mediocre

yes bowling has always been poor,how long can cover batting cover it up