Curious case of Mohali: selection conundrum?

[Mosher]

8 minutes ago, Texan said:

Surely Anderson and Broad must have played on a green pitch if they were able to get 4/95 and 5/82 respectively.

You are now comparing great bowler like Anderson and a really good bowler like Broad to Umesh??? They have got vastly different and better skill sets than both our pacers Shami and Umesh. Height, pace, bounce, reverse and leg cutters.

[Texan]

Just now, rkt.india said:

yes speed is measured form hand, so, it is always about pace in the air. You are not going gain pace after pitching. If you are not quick in the air, how can you be quick off the pitch?

Agreed. Umesh Yadav is the greatest pace bowler the World is about to see. End of story.

[rkt.india]

2 minutes ago, Texan said:

And you clearly switch gears from all wickets except one was due to reverse swing to one wicket was due to reverse swing and all others were not. If you think Anderson is effective only due to reverse swing, you have clearly missed the 400+ wickets he has taken and shows your notion about cricketing skills. Your obsession with speed guns is blinding your ability to see cricketing skills. So, yes, Umesh only bowls on pattas and when Anderson and Broad came to bowl, stupid groundsmen started planting grass on the pitch. Accept that and move on.

are those 400+ wickets taken in India? I am talking about this series and fast bowling in India which is mostly about reverse swing until you get a grassy track like it was against NZ in Kolkata. Anderson has good skills when new ball swings but outside England, he has been just an average bowler, averaging 32 after 51 tests, less than 4 wickets per test. His average in England is 25 after 69 tests with 296 wickets more than 4 wickets per match. Can you tell me the reason, because he does not get those swinging conditions outside England and at times in NZ. and if you exclude neutral venues like Dbbai against a weak Pak batting, he averages 34.

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, Texan said:

Agreed. Umesh Yadav is the greatest pace bowler the World is about to see. End of story.

I didnt even mention Umesh. Is Umesh the only bowler who can bowl quick?  

[rkt.india]

13 minutes ago, Mosher said:

You are now comparing great bowler like Anderson and a really good bowler like Broad to Umesh??? They have got vastly different and better skill sets than both our pacers Shami and Umesh. Height, pace, bounce, reverse and leg cutters.

serious pootiyappa to compare bowlers who have played 100 plus tests and bowlers who have barely played 20.

[bowl_out]

21 likes for the OP 

 

Great job, Ramkumar

[Texan]

17 minutes ago, Mosher said:

You are now comparing great bowler like Anderson and a really good bowler like Broad to Umesh??? They have got vastly different and better skill sets than both our pacers Shami and Umesh. Height, pace, bounce, reverse and leg cutters.

So, what you are saying is that skill is much more important than blind pace? I think that pretty much sums up my argument against using only blind pace as the yardstick to picking pacers.

[rkt.india]

3 minutes ago, Texan said:

So, what you are saying is that skill is much more important than blind pace? I think that pretty much sums up my argument against using only blind pace as the yardstick to picking pacers.

but they have pace too. Both clocked 89-90 mph. Why these two things are mutually exclusive? Why not pace plus skills? A good bowler combines both together. Would Broad and Anderson be as effective on the same pitch if they had the skills but bowling at 125-130?

Edited November 23, 2016 by rkt.india

[Mosher]

3 minutes ago, Texan said:

So, what you are saying is that skill is much more important than blind pace? I think that pretty much sums up my argument against using only blind pace as the yardstick to picking pacers.

Please quote me where I have said pace is the only skill that matters for a bowler.

[Mosher]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

but they have pace too. Both clocked 89-90 mph. Why these two things are mutually exclusive? Why not pace plus skills? A good bowler combines both together. Would Broad and Anderson be as effective on the same pitch if they had the skills but bowling at 125-130?

THIS.

[Texan]

7 minutes ago, Mosher said:

Please quote me where I have said pace is the only skill that matters for a bowler.

Not saying you but there are speed gun analysts here who measure every ball's effectiveness solely on how much it clocks on the speed gun and not how effective that ball was. 

[rkt.india]

I am ready to play all 3 pacers in the mold of BK and Sandeep Sharma when we tour England next time because those conditions suit their bowling even if they are bowling at 130. You will need bowlers who can swing the ball with decent consistency in England. We have been making this mistake of picking Shami, Ishant there who do not swing the new ball and are more of seam bowlers. We will need 2 good swing bowler to bowl with the new ball and one bowler with pace who can make use of bounce and reverse when available.

 

IMO, it is all about conditions and need to play bowlers according to conditions. There have been very few bowlers like McGrath who could bowler well irrespective of the conditions. Even Steyn has struggled at times due to flat conditions.

[beetle]

Bhuvi is magical when conditions suit him and as good or as bad as Umesh when conditions don't suit him.

If bhuvi is not an all condiition ,all trick bowler...neither is umesh.

If bhuvi can't set pattas on fire...nor is umesh doing the same 

I could understand if Umesh was in the form of his life ...but this nonsense about  Umesh gets the first chance because conditions are not juicy enough for bhuvi should stop.

 

It is surprisiing how the speed worshippers are so satiated by just seeing  fast bowling....oooooh that was 149!!!!ohhhhh that was 150.....and that iitself is enough even if those ohhhhh deliveries don't get wkts..

Do people say...ohhh...look at that ball swing .....maaza aa gaya....that is enough,Swing is the real thing....

27 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I didnt even mention Umesh. Is Umesh the only bowler who can bowl quick?  

Who are the other bowlers being discussed?

Who are the other quicks in direct reckoning?

No one is talking about shamii here.

 

If bhuvi does well...then people go...it is the conditions only....

If he does well,he gets damned if he doesn't he gets damned.

It is like he is being punished for being skilled at something.

 

Poor Umesh gets targetted more because of the blind speed worshippers  than he would otherwise. 

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by radhika

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Mosher said:

THIS.

If people have actually watched matches not just follow cricinfo, they will know that even highly biased England commentators have praised both our pacers. It is that  England batsmen play pace better than our batsmen. If the same Anderson and Broad had bowled to England batsmen, they would not have been as successful as they were bowling against our batsmen.

[express bowling]

43 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

 Indian team management only plays BK when it is a green track in test matches and Umesh is played on flatter tracks because he can use reverse swing.

 

 

44 minutes ago, Mosher said:

How many times have they played together in a test match? Though Umesh has not bowled badly till now, I want BK to play ahead of him on pattas and see how he performs in a few games. Then we can put this debate to rest. Similarly I want Umesh to be given chances on green pitches too. Poor guy has played most of his matches on pattas.

 

Yes....Umesh has improved his accuracy from the SA series in end 2015.   After that...he has played only one test which has helped seamers...the 1st test in WI...and has picked up 5 wickets.

 

 How can a seamer playing almost exclusively on pattas and left out on green tracks..... compete in terms of stats with another seamer playing exclusively on seamer-friendly conditions. ?

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, radhika said:

Bhuvi is magical when conditions suit him and as good or as bad as Umesh when conditions don't suit him.

If bhuvi is not an all condiition ,all trick bowler...neither is umesh.

If bhuvi can't set pattas on fire...nor is umesh doing the same 

I could understand if Umesh was in the form of his life ...but this nonsense about  Umesh gets the first chance because conditions are not juicy enough for bhuvi should stop.

Who are the other bowlers being discussed?

Who are the other quicks in direct reckoning?

No one is talking about shamii here.

 

If bhuvi does well...then people go...it is the conditions only....

If he does well,he gets damned if he doesn't he gets damned.

It is like he is being punished for being skilled at something.

 

Poor Umesh gets targetted more because of the blind speed worshippers  than he would otherwise. 

 

Because Umesh is one bowler who can get you wickets or break partnership anytime when nothing is happening on a relatively flat pitch. He did in WI in the first test. He did it against SA in Delhi test.  He did it even in last test when Bairstow and Stokes were taking the game away from us. On these pitches, our spinners are going to bowl most of the overs, but you will still need pacers, a change in pace at times when things don't get your way where he can produce wicket taking deliveries. 

[express bowling]

20 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

but they have pace too. Both clocked 89-90 mph. Why these two things are mutually exclusive? Why not pace plus skills? A good bowler combines both together. Would Broad and Anderson be as effective on the same pitch if they had the skills but bowling at 125-130?

Exactly.....This is the point I  do not understand.

 

Why do so many people in  India not want pace/ bounce + skills   !!

 

If  Umesh is not good then drop him....no problem

 

But the search should be for pacers who combine skills with pace.

 

Why search for pacers who have either pace or skills   ?

 

People somehow miss that both Broad and Anderson have bowled a good % of deliveries between 135 k and 145 k in their careers and also have the ability to hit the deck hard and get steep bounce when needed. In addition, they also have a high skill level in the last few years.

[rkt.india]

1 minute ago, express bowling said:

Exactly.....This is the point I  do not understand.

 

Why do so many people in  India not want pace/ bounce + skills   !!

 

If  Umesh is not good then drop him....no problem

 

But the search should be for pacers who combine skills with pace.

 

Why search for pacers who have either pace or skills   ?

 

People somehow miss that both Broad and Anderson have bowled a good % of deliveries between 135 k and 145 k in their careers and also have the ability to hit the deck hard and get steep bounce when needed. In addition, they also have a high skill level in the last few years.

According to Texan, BK would have taken 5-fer at Vizag if he had played. BK will most likely play at Mohali.

[Texan]

4 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Exactly.....This is the point I  do not understand.

 

Why do so many people in  India not want pace/ bounce + skills   !!

 

If  Umesh is not good then drop him....no problem

 

But the search should be for pacers who combine skills with pace.

 

Why search for pacers who have either pace or skills   ?

 

People somehow miss that both Broad and Anderson have bowled a good % of deliveries between 135 k and 145 k in their careers and also have the ability to hit the deck hard and get steep bounce when needed. In addition, they also have a high skill level in the last few years.

Errr... ummm... of course. Name one please.

[Texan]

2 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

According to Texan, BK would have taken 5-fer at Vizag if he had played. BK will most likely play at Mohali.

Don't paraphrase stuff. You are clearly incapable of following any logical argument. I see no point.