Why is it that everytime Indian Test Team is strong we dont get to play with Pakistan?Is this the reason of our poor head to head record?

[Vilander]

15 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

I respect that but this will continue forever. If not against Pakistan than against China in future and its been going in the past too. We will continue to play with them in ICC trophy. We continue to have their actors in our movies, their singers come and sing in Indian movies etc than whats the problem with bilateral series? 

 

What has average pakistani done to harm us. It is the politics and I would let it remain till politics. 

 

And for the record, I come from a military family and plenty of my ancestors have been part of Army, Navy and Air Force who have also fought battles and I know what it is like for a soldier's family. Still I feel we shoudln't mix sports with politics. 

1, ICC Trophy - We will play them to have a chance to advance and win the icc tourney like we mostly do. But no bilateral series - no revenue for pak gov on account of us watching the bilateral.

 

2, Actors in movies,singers in movies - they will be discouraged if not outright banned by gov, till pak stops sponsoring terror in India/Afganistan.

 

3, Average pak resident supplies resources, people, tax and political will to wage war on India. Average pak resident is the primary problem.

 

4, If you are from a military family its exceedingly unfortunate that you value soldiers life so less.  I really implore you to see the reality here, pak is an enemy country, if it was within India's control LOC would have been border before Vajpayee left and all would be well now, but pak wants war. pak wants to give raise to armed struggle and annihilation of Indian union, anyone who supports this is seditious.

 

5, No element of society is free from the political reality, its childish to imagine that pak can wage proxy war on India and still expect to play merry go round, hockey,cricket,Indian idol, Coffey with karan etc with India.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Vilander

[putrevus]

6 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

I respect that but this will continue forever. If not against Pakistan than against China in future and its been going in the past too. We will continue to play with them in ICC trophy. We continue to have their actors in our movies, their singers come and sing in Indian movies etc than whats the problem with bilateral series? 

 

What has average pakistani done to harm us. It is the politics and I would let it remain till politics. 

 

And for the record, I come from a military family and plenty of my ancestors have been part of Army, Navy and Air Force who have also fought battles and I know what it is like for a soldier's family. Still I feel we shoudln't mix sports with politics. 

If roles were reversed and Pakistan was super power in cricket and  BCCI was at the mercy of PCB what would have happened?

 

If PCB's main motive was creating a platform for harmony I am all for it but their only motive in playing series is money. These are the morons who wanted world cup to be moved from India when they were not able to host calling other hosts also platform for terrorists.

[Vilander]

And the war wont continue for ever, we will stop them. Lots of cricket with sind,pakjab after that for sure.

[Cricketics]

12 minutes ago, Vilander said:

 

4, If you are from a military family its exceedingly unfortunate that you value soldiers life so less.  I really implore you to see the reality here, pak is an enemy country, if it was within India's control LOC would have been border before Vajpayee left and all would be well now, but pak wants war. pak wants to give raise to armed struggle and annihilation of Indian union, anyone who supports this is sediti

Since you are thinking that way, What about then when Indian students were being killed in Australia and beaten up. Why did we not ask to stop playing against Australia then? Didn't we think anything about those students? 

 

You say it is allright to play in ICC tournaments since we need to qualify, well according to ICC ftp, we have to play pakistan too, in order to improve our ranking too. If we have to not play pakistan at all, we have to be more strict and not compete against them in ICC tournaments too then to send a message. This is no way to send a message by skipping bilateral series and playing the odd ICC games. That's a pathetic logic to send a message to them. 

 

I am not saying to invite Pakistan home. Play against them somewhere overseas like we do in ICC events. 

 

 

[Cricketics]

28 minutes ago, putrevus said:

If roles were reversed and Pakistan was super power in cricket and  BCCI was at the mercy of PCB what would have happened?

 

If PCB's main motive was creating a platform for harmony I am all for it but their only motive in playing series is money. These are the morons who wanted world cup to be moved from India when they were not able to host calling other hosts also platform for terrorists.

Boards are all greedy. Even our board is big time greedy for money, we all know that. I couldn't care less what they want out of series. Every board wants money.  It is the average cricket fan who actually enjoys watching cricket more than he/she thinks about what each board is making by hosting the series. For the fans, cricket has to continue.  Few tv news channels can interview an odd soldier and they will share their reaction about cricket but most soldiers in general like cricket and are like most cricket fans who want to play against Pakistan and want to beat them so they can be entertained. 

[BeautifulGame]

Since you are thinking that way, What about then when Indian students were being killed in Australia and beaten up. Why did we not ask to stop playing against Australia then? Didn't we think anything about those students? 

 

You say it is allright to play in ICC tournaments since we need to qualify, well according to ICC ftp, we have to play pakistan too, in order to improve our ranking too. If we have to not play pakistan at all, we have to be more strict and not compete against them in ICC tournaments too then to send a message. This is no way to send a message by skipping bilateral series and playing the odd ICC games. That's a pathetic logic to send a message to them. 

 

I am not saying to invite Pakistan home. Play against them somewhere overseas like we do in ICC events. 

 

 

For starters rankings are meaningless but progressing in world cup isn't .

Also factually not playing Pakistan doesn't affect our rankings either because ICc don't deduct points for matches that don't happen .We can just play another series with Srilanka in that period and improve our ranking points for example.

Not playing Pakistan in a bilateral doesn't harm us in anyway and affects Pakistan in some ways regardless of how effective it is but refusing to play them in a global tournament is pure self harm.

In fact plenty of teams don't play bilateral games in international sports (Isreal vs Arab countries for one ) but no one gives a walk over when paired up in world cups or Olympics .Because that is self harm which is not the objective of a political boycott .

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

 

For starters rankings are meaningless but progressing in world cup isn't .

 

Also factually not playing Pakistan doesn't affect our rankings either because ICc don't deduct points for matches that don't happen .We can just play another series with Srilanka in that period and improve our ranking points for example.

 

Not playing Pakistan in a bilateral doesn't harm us in anyway and affects Pakistan in some ways regardless of how effective it is but refusing to play them in a global tournament is pure self harm.

 

In fact plenty of teams don't play bilateral games in international sports (Isreal vs Arab countries for one ) but no one gives a walk over when paired up in world cups or Olympics .Because that is self harm which is not the objective of a political boycott .

My whole point is that we can't just quit ol against Pakistan like we have been doing. The whole thing doesn't add up. I am the last person who would want India to skil ICC tournament games and mess up our chances but the whole thing still looks crazy to skip few series and play only ICC games.

 

Cricket doesn't work like Davis cup tennis or other sports. Cricket continues to be played more among countries unlike other other sports where club and leagues are more popular. Cricket with out bilateral series won't be as popular or hard to imagine. You can bring as many leagues as you want like IPL and BBL, country vs country is still what cricket will thrive on. 

[Vilander]

51 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Since you are thinking that way, What about then when Indian students were being killed in Australia and beaten up. Why did we not ask to stop playing against Australia then? Didn't we think anything about those students? 

 

You say it is allright to play in ICC tournaments since we need to qualify, well according to ICC ftp, we have to play pakistan too, in order to improve our ranking too. If we have to not play pakistan at all, we have to be more strict and not compete against them in ICC tournaments too then to send a message. This is no way to send a message by skipping bilateral series and playing the odd ICC games. That's a pathetic logic to send a message to them. 

 

I am not saying to invite Pakistan home. Play against them somewhere overseas like we do in ICC events. 

 

 

The only thing pathetic here is your logic of equating random hate crime / petty thievery mugging/ pub brawl to state sponsored terrorism, beheading and inhuman torture of soldiers against geneva convention.

 

When you say ancestors do you mean your great grand dad or something ? are you sure have you experienced first hand a soldier from your family ? are you sure you are Indian..haha. 

 

Some random hate crime or pub brawl in Aus ( which get investigated in Aus and guilty punished) is the same as state organized terrorism ?. Dude stop right there before you make further damage to your rep.

 

You are equating Aus to pakistan, you are saying India is at fault here with pak handling them the way our govt is at the moment. 

 

India should play pak in ICC tournaments to advance, and not play bilaterals so that we do not provide unnecessary monetary benefits to PCB and the Pak establishment, its pretty simple. 

 

 

[Cricketics]

^ again, India plays or not play Pak won't change their financial situation that much. An odd series is not how a particular can thrive on. Yes, it does help little bit as that series will give them more than what they make from other series but won't help them completely like it is made out to be. 

 

So your concern is more from the board  PCB making the money and having the benfit from the series? If that's the case you will be fine to have a series with them if the games are not shown in Pakistan and pcb do not get any funds? 

[Vilander]

41 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

^ again, India plays or not play Pak won't change their financial situation that much. An odd series is not how a particular can thrive on. Yes, it does help little bit as that series will give them more than what they make from other series but won't help them completely like it is made out to be. 

 

So your concern is more from the board  PCB making the money and having the benfit from the series? If that's the case you will be fine to have a series with them if the games are not shown in Pakistan and pcb do not get any funds? 

it does not matter what PCB does with the cash or how it develops the game in pak, it matters that PCB pays its taxes to the Pakistani establishment which sponsors terror in India, however little it is it should be seen as unnecessary - similar to maybe some pak tv serial or movie making money in India.

if no proceeds from the game go to PCB or via tax to pak establishment then there is no point in not playing - then i would be indifferent. But if there is any monetary proceedings to PCB and pak gov via any tax from any of the participating organizations then its best to avoid playing them unless it necessary to progress in ICC tourney ( in the event of it being hosted in pak then India best avoids it anyway on security).

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, Vilander said:

 

if no proceeds from the game go to PCB or via tax to pak establishment then there is no point in not playing - then i would be indifferent. But if there is any monetary proceedings to PCB and pak gov via any tax from any of the participating organizations then its best to avoid playing them unless it necessary to progress in ICC tourney ( in the event of it being hosted in pak then India best avoids it anyway on security).

Thank You. That's all I wanted to know why different people have different reasons for not playing against Pakistan. Since you have mentioned that there is no reason to NOT play with them if money is not going to organizations, that means you are fine with IndoPak games even when war is going on and our soldiers are dying as long as the money to pcb is not going to organizations.

So we are basically feeling the same thing but you care a bit more about our money not going to their terrorist organizations

[BeautifulGame]

My whole point is that we can't just quit ol against Pakistan like we have been doing. The whole thing doesn't add up. I am the last person who would want India to skil ICC tournament games and mess up our chances but the whole thing still looks crazy to skip few series and play only ICC games.

 

Cricket doesn't work like Davis cup tennis or other sports. Cricket continues to be played more among countries unlike other other sports where club and leagues are more popular. Cricket with out bilateral series won't be as popular or hard to imagine. You can bring as many leagues as you want like IPL and BBL, country vs country is still what cricket will thrive on. 

It does .We don't play Pakistan in bilaterals because it harms/benefits them and don't do that in world cups because it's self harm.

It's a pretty logic and something almost every country in similar situation do.Nothing crazy about it . Azerbaijan won't even allow Armenian players even enter it's country but does that mean they will give a walk over if meet in Euro ? Absolutely not .

Look I am not the biggest proponent of mixing sports and politics .I am happy if we decide to play Pakistan and don't really care if we don't play.it's up to Govt and on a sensitive issue like this Govt sets the lead .Cricket isn't that big a thing in the actual context .

But u can't just boycott in global tournaments becoz we don't play bilaterals .It perfectly adds up Nothing wired about it either .It really has little relevance whether club based on international issue based.Here the concern for India isn't looking after Pakistan cricket but looking after its self interests .

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Boards are all greedy. Even our board is big time greedy for money, we all know that. I couldn't care less what they want out of series. Every board wants money.  It is the average cricket fan who actually enjoys watching cricket more than he/she thinks about what each board is making by hosting the series. For the fans, cricket has to continue.  Few tv news channels can interview an odd soldier and they will share their reaction about cricket but most soldiers in general like cricket and are like most cricket fans who want to play against Pakistan and want to beat them so they can be entertained. 

No average cricket fan especially from Pakistan  want their board to make money so cricket can go on in their country.2004 tour Inzi being host had such good memories but it will hard to recapture same sentiments again with Pakistan.

 

Average cricket fans from Pakistan who preach no politics in Cricket are same ones who say we do not give a damn about Mumbai attacks. when precious lives are being lost in meaning less attacks.We cannot turn around and play goodwill games with them.

Edited December 28, 2016 by putrevus

[Vilander]

8 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Thank You. That's all I wanted to know why different people have different reasons for not playing against Pakistan. Since you have mentioned that there is no reason to NOT play with them if money is not going to organizations, that means you are fine with IndoPak games even when war is going on and our soldiers are dying as long as the money to pcb is not going to organizations.

So we are basically feeling the same thing but you care a bit more about our money not going to their terrorist organizations

no if money goes to them then you are sponsoing your own soldiers death. How can you not see it ?

[Cricketics]

7 minutes ago, Vilander said:

no if money goes to them then you are sponsoing your own soldiers death. How can you not see it ?

I know that, but i am just pointing out that you mentioned above that you are fine to continue games with Pakistan as long as the money is not going to organizations. This means you are fine to play against Pakistan even though pakistan will continue its war against India in future. 

[Texan]

India's H2H record vs Pak is not as bad as it seems. We have lost 2 very close games against them. One at Bangalore in 1987 was lost by 16 runs and the other at Chennai in 1999 was lost by 12 runs. Both these results coyld have gone either way. Had we won both, we would have had a winning record overall against them. The 80s seriously screwed us because we played long Test series against the best ever Pak team. All the wins we have against them have pretty much been thrashings. 

[rtmohanlal]

no need to give undue importance to these head to heads.This is because they are influenced by a lot of various factors .Your opening post itself holds the answers.

[sandeep]

On the subject of the thread, let's be honest - Pak had a better team in the 1980s, should not hesitate in accepting that.  Neither should we overlook the fact that they did milk their home 'advantage' with the umpires and the balls beyond the pale.    

 

Historically, it appears that even on-paper weaker Pak teams have done better against us, while if they were better talent wise, then they really were able to win games to reflect that.  That's reality.  Its also reality that the last 10 years of cricket have been radically different, with India being head and shoulders better than the Pak team.  

 

@Cricketics I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but will strongly disagree with you on India-Pak cricket.  A Pak home tour is worth a minimum of $100 million to PCB.  And I firmly believe that its an absolute mistake to play bilateral cricket with them - Pak has a lot of pride in its cricket team, and the lack of funding, home cricket etc is hurting them quite a bit.  Blunt real-politik is  that this gives us leverage - something we don't really have on Pakistan and we badly need, in order to get them to stop committing crimes against humanity directed at our citizens, that also happen to be hurting their own citizens.  

 

Its all well and good to say that sports and "politics" dont mix, but that is more myth than reality.  The example of South Africa is in the history books, and the global boycott did have an impact.  

 

And regardless of how much impact, it is the duty of the Indian government to try everything in its power to get an end or at least a reduction in terrorism - bulk of it aimed at us is coming from Pakistan - this is just reality, we know this.  Even the most one-eyed of our Pak greenbros know this, although they will not want to accept it publicly.  

 

As much as I would enjoy India Pakistan test series, we cannot be blind to the murder and mayhem sponsored by the PakMil against us.  And neither can we live in a fool's paradise believing the delusion that these 2 things are not linked.  They are.  

[Vilander]

18 hours ago, Cricketics said:

I know that, but i am just pointing out that you mentioned above that you are fine to continue games with Pakistan as long as the money is not going to organizations. This means you are fine to play against Pakistan even though pakistan will continue its war against India in future. 

no i am not fine to play pakistan, i would be indifferent if there were no money involved cause i dont just hate them i just want them to stop killing Indians outside of a declared war and willing to use any and all leverage available. I dont think Saurab kalias parents will ever be fine with anything pakistan for instance so you have to consider every section of the society, i would be indifferent. But bilateral gives them money so a big no, hurt them were ever you can to force them to stop. There is no moral high ground in this tics, i am not trying to win an argument with you, so wont play on words.

[Cricketics]

5 hours ago, sandeep said:

On the subject of the thread, let's be honest - Pak had a better team in the 1980s, should not hesitate in accepting that.  Neither should we overlook the fact that they did milk their home 'advantage' with the umpires and the balls beyond the pale.    

 

Historically, it appears that even on-paper weaker Pak teams have done better against us, while if they were better talent wise, then they really were able to win games to reflect that.  That's reality.  Its also reality that the last 10 years of cricket have been radically different, with India being head and shoulders better than the Pak team.  

 

@Cricketics I find myself agreeing with you more often than not, but will strongly disagree with you on India-Pak cricket.  A Pak home tour is worth a minimum of $100 million to PCB.  And I firmly believe that its an absolute mistake to play bilateral cricket with them - Pak has a lot of pride in its cricket team, and the lack of funding, home cricket etc is hurting them quite a bit.  Blunt real-politik is  that this gives us leverage - something we don't really have on Pakistan and we badly need, in order to get them to stop committing crimes against humanity directed at our citizens, that also happen to be hurting their own citizens.  

 

Its all well and good to say that sports and "politics" dont mix, but that is more myth than reality.  The example of South Africa is in the history books, and the global boycott did have an impact.  

 

And regardless of how much impact, it is the duty of the Indian government to try everything in its power to get an end or at least a reduction in terrorism - bulk of it aimed at us is coming from Pakistan - this is just reality, we know this.  Even the most one-eyed of our Pak greenbros know this, although they will not want to accept it publicly.  

 

As much as I would enjoy India Pakistan test series, we cannot be blind to the murder and mayhem sponsored by the PakMil against us.  And neither can we live in a fool's paradise believing the delusion that these 2 things are not linked.  They are.  

 

3 hours ago, Vilander said:

no i am not fine to play pakistan, i would be indifferent if there were no money involved cause i dont just hate them i just want them to stop killing Indians outside of a declared war and willing to use any and all leverage available. I dont think Saurab kalias parents will ever be fine with anything pakistan for instance so you have to consider every section of the society, i would be indifferent. But bilateral gives them money so a big no, hurt them were ever you can to force them to stop. There is no moral high ground in this tics, i am not trying to win an argument with you, so wont play on words.

Look, there is no argument and there is no right and wrong either in what you and me are discussing. Every decision needs to be respected as every Indian continues remain frustrated like all of us due to the things happening in our country due to our neighbours. Though it is just my personal opinion and I feel strongly about it that if we really want to show support to our soldiers that we really care more for them over cricket and show the world and to the countries who still don't support us fully and haven't declared the neighbours a "Terrorist state" then we should go full on by even skipping our ICC world cup games, even if it hurt our chances. The moment we think about it hurting our team's chances in terms of qualification to the next round, we are basically thinking and giving more respect to the game over the soldiers who are out fighting.  

 

Now of course, this is different from ideally what I want as I have stated earlier that I want the cricket to go on, but it is something to surely think about if we thinkkng of not continuing any ties with them. 

 

You guys are not wrong in trying to make sure that they don't make any revenue, but we can make this an even more stronger movement if we think upon the same idea and go full on.