Dhoni at no. 4 complicating things..

[Laaloo]

1 hour ago, Cricketics said:

The fact that we are questioning Dhoni's batting is something wrong. He is clearly the best man to come after Kohli, someone I would depend on. Yes, we need to develop players for the future etc, but no. 5 and no. 6 are there for that.

Chalo we should be happy with Dhoni batting at a strike rate of 82 when even the likes of behradien has a better strike rate than him. 

[Sandeep99]

This should be India's line up in an ideal world in ODIs (keeping 2017 CT and 2019 WC in mind) -

 

Rohit

Dhawan

Kohli (C)

Rahul

Pandey

Dhoni (K)

Mishra/Pandya/Jadeja (based on conditions)

Ashwin

Bhuvi/Umesh

Shami

Bumrah

 

Reserves - Pant, Jadhav, Jadeja/Pandya/Mishra, U Yadav

Edited January 8, 2017 by Sandeep99

[Cricketics]

5 minutes ago, laaloo said:

Chalo we should be happy with Dhoni batting at a strike rate of 82 when even the likes of behradien has a better strike rate than him. 

Not. He has struggled as I have said, but he has struggled along with many others in the team. The drop in Raina's average etc shows Dhoni has been conservative in his approach about playing faster and risking of losing another wicket. That is what Kohli means when he said "he can play more freely."

 

Dhoni is the best man for no. at 4. I would see how Rahul or others do and would replace them with Dhoni if they are doing extremely well or and if Dhoni is struggling big time. But for now - Kohli 3 and Dhoni at 4 suits perfect for Indian team. If we are two down and one of the openers or Kohli is batting with a set Dhoni around 35th over, we are looking at getting good totals along with even also chasing big totals.

 

 

[BeautifulGame]

Even before 2 years, Dhoni's most common batting position has been No.6  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=2;spanmax1=08+Jan+2015;spanmin1=08+Jan+2004;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Yes because he felt there weren't anyone as good as him in lower order.Hence despite being a far superior top order bat , he dropped down to no.6 which is much harder to bat.

Now that he is past his best , time to move up the order which is his best batting position

[BeautifulGame]

How right you are ......these are are SRs of batsmen at No.5 to No.7 positions in ODIs  in the last 2 years ( excluding minnow oppositions )

 

In these positions Dhoni has SR of 86.95  and there are 8 batters between 101 to 146.  Sort of proves that he has to come in at No.4 and no later these days.

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
AB de Villiers (SA)	2015-2016	9	8	4	455	162*	113.75	311	146.30	2	2	0	46	18	GJ Maxwell (AUS)	2015-2016	26	23	3	759	102	37.95	603	125.87	1	4	4	87	18	L Ronchi (NZ)	2015-2016	39	31	4	553	170*	20.48	473	116.91	1	0	5	44	21	JC Buttler (ENG)	2015-2016	31	26	4	880	129	40.00	787	111.81	1	6	2	79	18	DA Miller (SA)	2015-2016	23	20	4	656	130*	41.00	597	109.88	2	1	2	60	16	MS Wade (AUS)	2015-2016	28	23	5	652	76	36.22	612	106.53	0	5	0	52	17	BA Stokes (ENG)	2015-2016	23	22	3	752	101	39.57	723	104.01	1	5	2	66	23	Shoaib Malik (PAK)	2015-2016	13	13	3	373	55*	37.30	368	101.35	0	3	0	22	13	GD Elliott (NZ)	2015-2016	27	25	5	836	104*	41.80	839	99.64	1	5	2	65	20	MR Marsh (AUS)	2015-2016	29	26	6	786	102*	39.30	797	98.61	1	6	3	75	19	Mohammad Rizwan (PAK)	2015-2016	17	16	4	326	67	27.16	347	93.94	0	2	0	31	3	SK Raina (INDIA)	2015-2015	15	14	0	332	65	23.71	355	93.52	0	3	2	28	7	CJ Anderson (NZ)	2015-2016	24	22	1	552	81	26.28	602	91.69	0	3	2	48	20	Sarfraz Ahmed (PAK)	2015-2016	16	14	2	590	105	49.16	646	91.33	1	4	0	46	1	Mushfiqur Rahim (BDESH)	2015-2016	11	9	2	333	89	47.57	367	90.73	0	2	0	26	3	F Behardien (SA)	2015-2016	31	25	8	545	70	32.05	623	87.47	0	2	1	37	11	MS Dhoni (INDIA)	2015-2016	19	18	2	520	92*	32.50	598	86.95	0	2	0	35	12	Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)	2015-2016	19	17	3	460	79	32.85	533	86.30	0	4	0	44	4	SC Williams (ZIM)	2015-2016	15	14	1	365	76	28.07	426	85.68	0	3	2	28	4	Sikandar Raza (ZIM)	2015-2016	19	17	3	519	100*	37.07	625	83.04	2	1	0	34	13	AD Mathews (SL)	2015-2016	28	22	4	757	95	42.05	912	83.00	0	6	3	61	8	TM Head (AUS)	2016-2016	13	13	0	359	52	27.61	451	79.60	0	2	1	34	3	JP Duminy (SA)	2015-2016	26	20	3	468	73	27.52	590	79.32	0	2	0	32	4	D Ramdin (WI)	2015-2016	20	20	0	486	91	24.30	639	76.05	0	3	2	31	9

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=7;batting_positionmin1=5;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_strike_rate;qualmin1=300;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

Why are we mingling 5-7 ? 6 and 7 is what a fair reflection is .

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax2=7;batting_positionmin2=6;batting_positionval2=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_strike_rate;qualmin1=300;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Filtering at that from the stats posted ,apart from Marsh (who bats at roads) and Butler (a great odi batsman fair enough) no one is even averaging 30.

[BeautifulGame]

Stats for batsmen at no.6 in last 3 years .

Averaging 41 at a strike rate of 86.Hardly poor stats as some make out. Obviously we someone with much better big hitting ability at 6 that's why Dhoni needs to move up the order.

But only Miller and Butler average above hundred in SR.

[express bowling]

33 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

 

Why are we mingling 5-7 ? 6 and 7 is what a fair reflection is .

Because Dhoni has batted at No.5 in a significant % of ODI matches against non-minnows in the last 2 years.

[BeautifulGame]

Because Dhoni has batted at No.5 in a significant % of ODI matches against non-minnows in the last 2 years.

In last 3 years Dhoni has batted at @ no.5 in 11 matches (excluding Zim) and averages 46 @ a strike rate of 102

Which is excellent and only De Villiers have better stats when you combine SR and Average.

But what u have done is take Dhoni stats at both 5 and 6 and then compared with batsman batted only at 5.Which is nonsense

source

[BeautifulGame]

Stats of batsmen at 5 in last 3 years excluding Zimbabwe

[express bowling]

In general, ODIs have gone to another level in terms of SR in the last 2 years. 

 

There are lots of new-age hitters in almost every team, many of them LOI specialists, and they can smash the ball from ball one.

 

In the Indian team, almost all our batters are innings builders who play at a moderate SR compared to modern times.

 

This includes Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli, Dhoni...even Yuvi won't be much different nowadays.  Pandey is sort of similar too.

 

We obviously need 3 proper batters who will hold the innings together, whether it is chasing or setting a target.....BUT  all batters cannot be like that.

 

We need a couple of new-age high SR batters to complement the innings builders and make our LOI team more complete.

[express bowling]

26 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

In last 3 years Dhoni has batted at @ no.5 in 11 matches (excluding Zim) and averages 46 @ a strike rate of 102

Which is excellent and only De Villiers have better stats when you combine SR and Average.

But what u have done is take Dhoni stats at both 5 and 6 and then compared with batsman batted only at 5.Which is nonsense

source

I stated stats for 2 years ....because this is the period during which Dhoni's reflexes have slowed down. 

 

Before 2 years, Dhoni was the best ODI finisher to have played the game....no one is questioning that aspect of his.

 

In this period, he has batted almost equally at No.4, No.5 and No.6  ( against non-minnows )

 

A finisher's role in 18 out of 26 matches at No.5 and No.6.... so I compared with other players at  finisher's roles.

 

 

 

 

 

[New guy]

Hopefully not having captaincy pressure will make him play more freely. He would want to go out with a bang with people missing his presence

[BeautifulGame]

I stated stats for 2 years ....because this is the period during which Dhoni's reflexes have slowed down. 

 

Before 2 years, Dhoni was the best ODI finisher to have played the game....no one is questioning that aspect of his.

 

In this period, he has batted almost equally at No.4, No.5 and No.6  ( against non-minnows )

 

A finisher's role in 18 out of 26 matches at No.5 and No.6.... so I compared with other players at  finisher's roles.

 

 

 

 

 

Because Dhoni has batted at No.5 in a significant % of ODI matches against non-minnows in the last 2 years.

Dhoni has batted 8 matches in last 2 years .And has a SR of 96.4 hardly an awful strike rate.Admittedly he struggled at no.5 in last year .Everyone can have off years though.The year before he batted at 5 (in 2015) he averaged 72 with strike rate of 110.

You cant seriously suggest just because he had 1 poor year at no.5 he is a poor at no.5 .

Also no.5 is not a finisher .No.5 is someone who can play big innings and finish once sets/go big in later overs .Symonds is arguably the best in that role .No one would call him a finisher.

Either way I am not disagreeing Dhoni's finishing abilities has disintegrated in the last 2 years .That's why I don't want him at no.6 and why he should bat up the order at no.4 where he can take his time to play the big innings and later the big shots once set particularly in middle overs without risky shots.

My point is he has always been pretty excellent at the top order and should be at his best in these later years no.4 where he is at his best.His records in the top order is phenomenal.Just because he decided to bat low down the order for team cause doesn't make him better finisher than top order bat which he has always been.

[Ankit_sharma03]

4 hours ago, PSB_Zone said:

Gone is the time when MSd was suited to bat at any position...I don't think he has the same luxury now..

If dhawan and Rohit are opening
KL rahul, Manish, Uv even Rahane all can only bat at No. 4
And thus only 1 can play out of abv 4..If dhawan droped and rahul
open, then only manish comes in.
They all will be just wasted if they are batted below No. 4

We still don't hv No. 5 and 6 . So if Dhoni want to play No. 5
is the position for him with special instruction of being aggressive
As far as no. 6 is concern I cant see any one but Suresh Raina  

Idealy there is no place of Msd in one-day as well as we should now
play Raina at 5 and a dasher like Pant at 6. Raina is important coz of experience.

Dhawan/rohit/kohli/rahul/raina/pant
or
rahul/rohit/kohli/manish/raina/pant

1st- dhawan himself is counting his days. He has lost his place in 2 formats and if doesnt perform now well the competition will eat him.

 

Only Kl can bat at 4

Manish- even dhoni at his low was the second highest scorer among indian in last series. Pandey blew his chances

Yuvraj- the guy shudnt bat above 6

Rahane- Dhoni last 2 yrs avg is 38 which has been a huge dip in his career avg is 32. 

 

Dhoni can bat at 5 to........there isnt much issue there. 

 

The man has aided this team and youngsters for years in their bad time, now its time for other players take him through and thats how teams work. Not every day is a sunday. Even kohli avg 37 in 2015. 

Dhoni is a legend, unlike yuvraj he is still fit and extremely alert minded and easily deserves a place in squad. Its even that his numbers ahve gone below 20 which Yuvraj singh went.

 

He cannot do a finishers role but can easily be rotated at 4,5 acc to situation. 

3 hours ago, bowl_out said:

Rahul can surely bat at a lower position.. 

Of the options you mentioned, here is how I see it:

 

No. 1,2,3 - Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli - nothing changes here

No.4 - Pandey.. huge potential. got a 100 while chasing in Australia.. needs a longer run at this position

No.5 - Dhoni - opportunity to build the innings when required or be an aggressor if the situation demands

No. 6 - Rahul - has a variety of strokeplay and the aggression needed down the order.. has shown he can play down the order in the IPL

No. 7 - Pandya - groom him to be a hitter finisher along with Rahul

No. 8/9 - Jadeja, Ashwin/Mishra

No. 10, 11 - Umesh/Bhuvi , Bumrah

Why wud u waste a player like Rahul at 6

Pandey wasted last series and performing Rahul gets demoted , thats foolishness. Rahul has better technique and game then pandey and he gets a demotion. 

when a batsman like him can score150+ above batting up why do u want him to make 40-60 runs

 

Groom Pandya to be a hitter finisher with Rahul????????what m i reading it well. Stop calling ur test opener a finisher hitter coz of his skills. Games can be finished batting up the order to like kohli does. I dnt where this concept has come that if u have strokes u shud bat low and get less balls. Thank god Sehwag, gilly, gayle ABDv were not given a chance at 6.

This shud be done only incase the player doesnt have the ability to bat in top 3 like Yuvraj singh couldnt, Give ur best batsman Max number of balls. Rahul is a terrific batsman , its teams loss if he gets less balls

2 hours ago, express bowling said:

Even before 2 years, Dhoni's most common batting position has been No.6  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=2;spanmax1=08+Jan+2015;spanmin1=08+Jan+2004;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

Yup but when ur game goes down, batting at low position doesnt help. There is no rhythem in the batting. He also has retired from 1 formats that is also a factor. And as u age its not only reflexes its the mental pressure that player goes through, becoz he knows now ppl will look at his age more than number. !0 yrs of captaincy wud have taken its tole somewere. 

 

For Me dhoni shud ideally bat at 5, in cases he shud also be send at 4 and 3(in case kohli isnt there) to get his confidence and rhythem going. 

At 4 - i like Rahul but i want an aggresive opener, i hope pant emerges or else Rahul opens and i wud like to give Nair a go. 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Ankit_sharma03

[express bowling]

2 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

Dhoni has batted 8 matches in last 2 years .And has a SR of 96.4 hardly an awful strike rate.

Also no.5 is not a finisher .No.5 is someone who can play big innings and finish once sets/go big in later overs .Symonds is arguably the best in that role .No one would call him a finisher.

Either way I am not disagreeing Dhoni's finishing abilities has disintegrated in the last 2 years .That's why I don't want him at no.6 and why he should bat up the order at no.4 where he can take his time to play the big innings and later the big shots once set particularly in middle overs without risky shots.

My point is he hasn't been pretty decent at no .5 and should be at his best in these later years no.4 where he is at his best.His records in the top order is phenomenal.Just because he decided to bat low down the order for team cause doesn't make him better finisher than top order bat which he has always been.

 

Seeing that Dhoni has actually been best at No.5 in the recent past.... it might not be bad to try him at No.5  in this series.

[BeautifulGame]

 

Seeing that Dhoni has actually been best at No.5 in the recent past.... it might not be bad to try him at No.5  in this series.

Personally I would prefer to see him bat no.4

We are nowadays relying too much on Kohli need to reduce the burden on him.Atleast batting first Rohit does a great job ,but usually while chasing our reliance on Kohli has become too bad.Having Dhoni at no.4 will reduce the burden on Kohli to a significant extent.

[Cricketics]

17 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Seeing that Dhoni has actually been best at No.5 in the recent past.... it might not be bad to try him at No.5  in this series.

Dhoni doesn't need to be tried any where now. If he wants 4, he should get no.4 and he will get no. 4

 

He has said many times he wants to bat up now since he has been needing more time.

 

Stats shared by @BeautifulGame has proved enough how numbers can be misleading.

 

Get Dhoni at 4. Kohli amd Dhoni at 3 and 4 is perfect. 

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Personally I would prefer to see him bat no.4

We are nowadays relying too much on Kohli need to reduce the burden on him.Atleast batting first Rohit does a great job ,but usually while chasing our reliance on Kohli has become too bad.Having Dhoni at no.4 will reduce the burden on Kohli to a significant extent.

It maybe ok in this series but in CT, with Rohit back, we will have Rahul down in the middle order.  

 

The question will then arise as to who among Dhoni and Rahul is better at no.4 and who is better at no.5 based on current abilities. 

 

Only time will give us a clearer idea about this....I am keeping my judgement open on this issue.

[express bowling]

Just now, Cricketics said:

Stats shared by @BeautifulGame has proved enough how numbers can be misleading.

 

 

How ?

[express bowling]

3 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

 If he wants 4, he should get no.4 and he will get no. 4

 

Only the captain gets  what he wants....no one else.