Dhoni at no. 4 complicating things..

[PSB_Zone]

Gone is the time when MSd was suited to bat at any position...I don't think he has the same luxury now..

If dhawan and Rohit are opening
KL rahul, Manish, Uv even Rahane all can only bat at No. 4
And thus only 1 can play out of abv 4..If dhawan droped and rahul
open, then only manish comes in.
They all will be just wasted if they are batted below No. 4

We still don't hv No. 5 and 6 . So if Dhoni want to play No. 5
is the position for him with special instruction of being aggressive
As far as no. 6 is concern I cant see any one but Suresh Raina  

Idealy there is no place of Msd in one-day as well as we should now
play Raina at 5 and a dasher like Pant at 6. Raina is important coz of experience.

Dhawan/rohit/kohli/rahul/raina/pant
or
rahul/rohit/kohli/manish/raina/pant

[BeautifulGame]

Dhoni is a better batsman than than all of the options mention at no.4 .So if he prefers to bat at no.4 considering he is still India's second best bat after Kohli,he will naturally bat at 4.

 

If others are not suited to any position other than no.4 ,then they either need to adopt their game or we will have to find better options at no.5 and 6.

 

The only question is whether Dhoni has the ability to go big once he settles in .IF he cant then he should retire.But he deserves a few matches at no.4 to decide how he goes.If he struggles badly at no.4 ,which I dont he he will,they Dhoni should in honesty be dropped from the team.He simply isnt suited to bat at 6 nowadays .

 

Either way Dhoni @ 4 and Rahul @ 5 is the best option for our ODI team.The likes of Yuvi and Rania should have no business in the ODI team.

 

 

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Dhoni is a better batsman than than all of the options mention at no.4 .So if he prefers to bat at no.4 considering he is still India's second best bat after Kohli,he will naturally bat at 4.

 

If others are not suited to any position other than no.4 ,then they either need to adopt their game or we will have to find better options at no.5 and 6.

 

The only question is whether Dhoni has the ability to go big once he settles in .IF he cant then he should retire.But he deserves a few matches at no.4 to decide how he goes.If he struggles badly at no.4 ,which I dont he he will,they Dhoni should in honesty be dropped from the team.He simply isnt suited to bat at 6 nowadays .

 

Either way Dhoni @ 4 and Rahul @ 5 is the best option for our ODI team.The likes of Yuvi and Rania should have no business in the ODI team.

 

 

Dhoni averages 38 in last two years, so, he isn't the second best. He is only better than Rahane.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, PSB_Zone said:

Gone is the time when MSd was suited to bat at any position...I don't think he has the same luxury now..

If dhawan and Rohit are opening
KL rahul, Manish, Uv even Rahane all can only bat at No. 4
And thus only 1 can play out of abv 4..If dhawan droped and rahul
open, then only manish comes in.
They all will be just wasted if they are batted below No. 4

We still don't hv No. 5 and 6 . So if Dhoni want to play No. 5
is the position for him with special instruction of being aggressive
As far as no. 6 is concern I cant see any one but Suresh Raina  

Idealy there is no place of Msd in one-day as well as we should now
play Raina at 5 and a dasher like Pant at 6. Raina is important coz of experience.

Dhawan/rohit/kohli/rahul/raina/pant
or
rahul/rohit/kohli/manish/raina/pant

Rahul can possibly bat at any position.

[bowl_out]

Rahul can surely bat at a lower position.. 

Of the options you mentioned, here is how I see it:

 

No. 1,2,3 - Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli - nothing changes here

No.4 - Pandey.. huge potential. got a 100 while chasing in Australia.. needs a longer run at this position

No.5 - Dhoni - opportunity to build the innings when required or be an aggressor if the situation demands

No. 6 - Rahul - has a variety of strokeplay and the aggression needed down the order.. has shown he can play down the order in the IPL

No. 7 - Pandya - groom him to be a hitter finisher along with Rahul

No. 8/9 - Jadeja, Ashwin/Mishra

No. 10, 11 - Umesh/Bhuvi , Bumrah

[tweaker]

Dhoni should play his natural aggressive game now as his burden of captaincy has been removed.

[PSB_Zone]

9 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

Rahul can surely bat at a lower position.. 

Of the options you mentioned, here is how I see it:

 

No. 1,2,3 - Rohit, Dhawan, Kohli - nothing changes here

No.4 - Pandey.. huge potential. got a 100 while chasing in Australia.. needs a longer run at this position

No.5 - Dhoni - opportunity to build the innings when required or be an aggressor if the situation demands

No. 6 - Rahul - has a variety of strokeplay and the aggression needed down the order.. has shown he can play down the order in the IPL

No. 7 - Pandya - groom him to be a hitter finisher along with Rahul

No. 8/9 - Jadeja, Ashwin/Mishra

No. 10, 11 - Umesh/Bhuvi , Bumrah

Ask urself without being emotional..
Can dhoni bat ahead of rahul?
Why not no. 5 for Rahul. He is great talent .At 6 will be a waste.
 

[GautiMaan]

We will have to see how this goes,in the three innings he played at no.4 against New Zealand one was scratchy,one was sublime and one was downright pathetic.Deserves a run at no.4 thats for sure.

[Cricketics]

Dhoni to me, regardless of whatever numbers you want to share from last 2 years, is still our 2nd best batsman after Kohli.

 

I will give him any position in the middle order regardless of where he wants. If he wants 5, I will give him 5. Same thing for Kohli, if he wants to bat at 4, I will give him four as I trust the guy's ability to make the game and want to make sure they are given what they need as they have bailed us out from many crazy situations before and they know what they are doing when asking for a certain postion in the middle order.

 

So my order will always be Kohli at 3, and Dhoni at 4.

[Cricketics]

5 minutes ago, PSB_Zone said:

Ask urself without being emotional..
Can dhoni bat ahead of rahul?
Why not no. 5 for Rahul. He is great talent .At 6 will be a waste.
 

Rahul can bat at 4, but I want Rahul to earn it. He has still played 3 games. He has earned a slot in the INdian team, but Dhoni is the senior and deserves to play higher. If Rahul does outstandingly and Dhoni fails miserably, we can always have Rahul at 4 in future right after Kohli. But for now he remains our opener with no Rohit around.

[BeautifulGame]

25 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Dhoni averages 38 in last two years, so, he isn't the second best. He is only better than Rahane.

Thats because he batted most of last 2 years at no.6

 

source

[Cricketics]

1 minute ago, BeautifulGame said:

Thats because he batted most of last 2 years at no.6

 

source

The fact that we are questioning Dhoni's batting is something wrong. He is clearly the best man to come after Kohli, someone I would depend on. Yes, we need to develop players for the future etc, but no. 5 and no. 6 are there for that.

[BeautifulGame]

24 minutes ago, bowl_out said:

 

 

 

No.4 - Pandey.. huge potential. got a 100 while chasing in Australia.. needs a longer run at this position

 

Pandey takes too much risks and plays like all or nothing batsman and even his big shots are risky airy shots..Not good enough for no.4 .The way he batted in the Newzealand series was a serious let down.Even if there is no Dhoni,it should be Rahul at 4 and no way he should bat below Pandey.

 

 

[express bowling]

35 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Thats because he batted most of last 2 years at no.6

 

source

Even before 2 years, Dhoni's most common batting position has been No.6  

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?class=2;spanmax1=08+Jan+2015;spanmin1=08+Jan+2004;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Dhoni averages 38 in last two years, so, he isn't the second best. He is only better than Rahane.

Yes....and excluding Zim it drops to 34.7.     Another worry is his SR in this period which has gone down from 89 to 82  in an era of  increasing SRs.

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
RG Sharma	2015-2016	24	24	1	1242	171*	54.00	1304	95.24	5	4	2	106	38
V Kohli	2015-2016	27	27	3	1247	154*	51.95	1381	90.29	5	5	0	93	15
S Dhawan	2015-2016	22	22	0	914	137	41.54	1036	88.22	2	6	0	108	9
AM Rahane	2015-2016	24	23	1	842	89	38.27	1041	80.88	0	8	1	71	13
MS Dhoni	2015-2016	27	26	2	833	92*	34.70	1008	82.63	0	4	1	60	18
SK Raina	2015-2015	17	16	0	407	74	25.43	416	97.83	0	4	2	33	10

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

[Laaloo]

82 is a pretty piss poor strike rate considering Dhoni bats at 5/6. Some of ICFers are still stuck in 2011.

[Cricketics]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Yes....and excluding Zim it drops to 34.7.     Another worry is his SR in this period which has gone down from 89 to 82  in an era of  increasing SRs.

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
RG Sharma	2015-2016	24	24	1	1242	171*	54.00	1304	95.24	5	4	2	106	38
V Kohli	2015-2016	27	27	3	1247	154*	51.95	1381	90.29	5	5	0	93	15
S Dhawan	2015-2016	22	22	0	914	137	41.54	1036	88.22	2	6	0	108	9
AM Rahane	2015-2016	24	23	1	842	89	38.27	1041	80.88	0	8	1	71	13
MS Dhoni	2015-2016	27	26	2	833	92*	34.70	1008	82.63	0	4	1	60	18
SK Raina	2015-2015	17	16	0	407	74	25.43	416	97.83	0	4	2	33	10

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=200;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

Stats just prove that Indian batting has struggled a lot and hence Dhoni can not continue to play the same game as you expect him to do.

 

Stats also prove like you said that Dhoni has struggle too. Yes, no doubt about that he has compared to his past.

 

Yes, he might not be the same big massive hitter, but he can not produce a more than run a ball, or run a ball inning every time, when we have struggled. We have lost plenty of games in last 2-3 years and our whole batting has been part of that problem, along with of course our bowling.

 

If Kohli or Sharma would have gone early, we have struggled fair bit and that has put plenty of pressure on Dhoni to keep his wicket and ensure he doesn't get out early to spark a collapse. This is actually the prime reason why he wants to come at no. 4 and give a better hand to Kohl, as they need someone solid in the middle order, as he as already scored lot of runs.

 

Anyways, the game has changed, as long as you can keep your wickets till 35th over, you can always score runs in the end, and that is what we are trying to do with Dhoni at 4 and Kohli at 3. If both of these guys are set till 35th over, we are looking at chasing most games successfully or setting up bigger totals.

 

 

[express bowling]

22 minutes ago, laaloo said:

82 is a pretty piss poor strike rate considering Dhoni bats at 5/6. Some of ICFers are still stuck in 2011.

How right you are ......these are are SRs of batsmen at No.5 to No.7 positions in ODIs  in the last 2 years ( excluding minnow oppositions )

 

In these positions Dhoni has SR of 86.95  and there are 8 batters between 101 to 146.  Sort of proves that he has to come in at No.4 and no later these days.

 

 

Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
AB de Villiers (SA)	2015-2016	9	8	4	455	162*	113.75	311	146.30	2	2	0	46	18
GJ Maxwell (AUS)	2015-2016	26	23	3	759	102	37.95	603	125.87	1	4	4	87	18
L Ronchi (NZ)	2015-2016	39	31	4	553	170*	20.48	473	116.91	1	0	5	44	21
JC Buttler (ENG)	2015-2016	31	26	4	880	129	40.00	787	111.81	1	6	2	79	18
DA Miller (SA)	2015-2016	23	20	4	656	130*	41.00	597	109.88	2	1	2	60	16
MS Wade (AUS)	2015-2016	28	23	5	652	76	36.22	612	106.53	0	5	0	52	17
BA Stokes (ENG)	2015-2016	23	22	3	752	101	39.57	723	104.01	1	5	2	66	23
Shoaib Malik (PAK)	2015-2016	13	13	3	373	55*	37.30	368	101.35	0	3	0	22	13
GD Elliott (NZ)	2015-2016	27	25	5	836	104*	41.80	839	99.64	1	5	2	65	20
MR Marsh (AUS)	2015-2016	29	26	6	786	102*	39.30	797	98.61	1	6	3	75	19
Mohammad Rizwan (PAK)	2015-2016	17	16	4	326	67	27.16	347	93.94	0	2	0	31	3
SK Raina (INDIA)	2015-2015	15	14	0	332	65	23.71	355	93.52	0	3	2	28	7
CJ Anderson (NZ)	2015-2016	24	22	1	552	81	26.28	602	91.69	0	3	2	48	20
Sarfraz Ahmed (PAK)	2015-2016	16	14	2	590	105	49.16	646	91.33	1	4	0	46	1
Mushfiqur Rahim (BDESH)	2015-2016	11	9	2	333	89	47.57	367	90.73	0	2	0	26	3
F Behardien (SA)	2015-2016	31	25	8	545	70	32.05	623	87.47	0	2	1	37	11
MS Dhoni (INDIA)	2015-2016	19	18	2	520	92*	32.50	598	86.95	0	2	0	35	12
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)	2015-2016	19	17	3	460	79	32.85	533	86.30	0	4	0	44	4
SC Williams (ZIM)	2015-2016	15	14	1	365	76	28.07	426	85.68	0	3	2	28	4
Sikandar Raza (ZIM)	2015-2016	19	17	3	519	100*	37.07	625	83.04	2	1	0	34	13
AD Mathews (SL)	2015-2016	28	22	4	757	95	42.05	912	83.00	0	6	3	61	8
TM Head (AUS)	2016-2016	13	13	0	359	52	27.61	451	79.60	0	2	1	34	3
JP Duminy (SA)	2015-2016	26	20	3	468	73	27.52	590	79.32	0	2	0	32	4
D Ramdin (WI)	2015-2016	20	20	0	486	91	24.30	639	76.05	0	3	2	31	9

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=7;batting_positionmin1=5;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=6;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_strike_rate;qualmin1=300;qualval1=runs;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Lannister]

The strike rate of players who have been batting at 6 for the past two years. 

 

When batting at 4 - 8(mat) 39(ave) 76(SR)

At 5 - 8(mat) 38(ave) 96(SR)

 

Only at 5 he has shown some decent stats. Still an average of 38 is nothing to be proud of. He has been batting at where ever he wants like it's his personnel property. 

[Mosher]

The only reason Dhoni is batting at 4 is he is struggling to smash the ball at 6 and not because he wants to "build" the innings. Kohli too wants Dhoni to play at no.4 but he wants Dhoni to play more freely now that he no longer has the burden of captaincy.