Dhoni at no. 4 complicating things..

[express bowling]

21 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

Pant plays ahead, simple. Pandey should only be used as opener or at first down if for some reason Kohli is not available. Other than that, we can not ask pandey to hit from ball one. I will make Raina play at 5 if Pant opens, and if Pant does not open, then Pant bats at 5.  bat ahead.

 

Rahul

Pant

Kohli

Dhoni

Yuvi

Raina

Pandya

 

if we lose our third wicket in about16th over, then would send Pandya ahead of Yuvi and Raina in two games to see how he goes about hitting the ball in the crucial overs. 

 

 

Look at how our batters have fared in T0Is in the last 2 years  ( against non-minnows )....and we have played lots

 

Only Kohli, Dhoni, Rahul and Rohit have done well

 

Yuvi has been super bad and Raina has been poor too.

 

Dhawan and Rahane have been thankfully dropped.

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
KL Rahul	2	1	1	110	110*	-	51	215.68	1	0	0	12	5
V Kohli	16	15	7	685	90*	85.62	485	141.23	0	7	0	71	12
MS Dhoni	19	16	11	235	43	47.00	149	157.71	0	0	0	16	10
RG Sharma	19	19	1	586	106	32.55	440	133.18	1	4	2	52	23
S Dhawan	15	15	1	299	60	21.35	252	118.65	0	2	0	34	10
SK Raina	17	14	2	256	49*	21.33	206	124.27	0	0	1	24	7
AM Rahane	7	7	2	102	40	20.40	96	106.25	0	0	1	8	0
Yuvraj Singh	14	10	2	141	35	17.62	145	97.24	0	0	1	10	7

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[BeautifulGame]

12 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

These are Rahane's innings at no.4 at there are 2 in 2016 as well.

 

All but one of his 4  low SR innings have been when he has got out cheaply

 

He had SR of  150, 131 and 111 in the 3 big innings he played and 90 in another.

 

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	72	70	2	2236	111	32.88	2831	78.98	2	16	6	221	27	Profile
filtered	9	9	0	436	89	48.44	470	92.76	0	4	0	36	8

Innings by innings list

Runs	Mins	BF	4s	6s	SR	Pos	Dismissal	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
79	90	60	7	3	131.66	4	lbw	1		v South Africa	Melbourne	22 Feb 2015	ODI # 3610
14	56	34	2	0	41.17	4	caught	2		v West Indies	Perth	6 Mar 2015	ODI # 3625
19	38	37	1	0	51.35	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Melbourne	19 Mar 2015	ODI # 3641
44	87	68	2	0	64.70	4	caught	2		v Australia	Sydney	26 Mar 2015	ODI # 3645
9	27	25	1	0	36.00	4	caught	2		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	18 Jun 2015	ODI # 3658
45	79	53	4	0	84.90	4	caught	1		v South Africa	Chennai	22 Oct 2015	ODI # 3698
87	87	58	9	3	150.00	4	caught	2		v South Africa	Mumbai	25 Oct 2015	ODI # 3700
89	107	80	6	1	111.25	4	caught	1		v Australia	Brisbane	15 Jan 2016	ODI # 3724
50	72	55	4	1	90.90	4	caught	1		v Australia	Melbourne	17 Jan 2016	ODI # 3725

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/277916.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

Balls faced in those innings 34,37,68,40 and 24 .Hardly low number of balls faced.Even if u just want to consider in terms of runs,he has failed to escored in 50% of those innings.Thats awfully poor record for a no.4

 

As I said he is a decent no.4 only if the bounce is true and wicket flat.

[express bowling]

1 minute ago, BeautifulGame said:

Balls faced in those innings 34,37,68,40 and 24 .Hardly low number of balls faced.Even if u just want to consider in terms of runs,he has failed to escored in 50% of those innings.Thats awfully poor record for a no.4

 

As I said he is a decent no.4 only if the bounce is true and wicket flat.

 

It is  34, 37, 68 and 25....there are 4 and not 5.

 

This is how Dhoni has done at No.4....we see similar trends too then but no big innings at 100+ SR  and Rahane has 3

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	283	246	67	9110	183*	50.89	10259	88.80	9	61	8	705	197	Profile
filtered	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6

Innings by innings list

Runs	Mins	BF	4s	6s	SR	Pos	Dismissal	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
47	112	75	3	0	62.66	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	21 Jun 2015	ODI # 3660
69	112	77	6	1	89.61	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	24 Jun 2015	ODI # 3661
47	85	61	5	0	77.04	4	caught	2		v South Africa	Rajkot	18 Oct 2015	ODI # 3695
18	18	13	1	1	138.46	4	caught	1		v Australia	Perth	12 Jan 2016	ODI # 3723
0	2	3	0	0	0.00	4	caught	2		v Australia	Canberra	20 Jan 2016	ODI # 3726
80	122	91	6	3	87.91	4	caught	2		v New Zealand	Mohali	23 Oct 2016	ODI # 3798
11	36	31	0	0	35.48	4	bowled	2		v New Zealand	Ranchi	26 Oct 2016	ODI # 3799
41	64	59	4	1	69.49	4	lbw	1		v New Zealand	Visakhapatnam	29 Oct 2016	ODI # 380

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

[sandeep]

Best chance for Dhoni to succeed at this point is #4 - any lower than that, and his current struggles will be under the scanner even more.  The cost for this is that someone like Pandey, who also is the type of batsman that would do better at #4 than at #5 will need to be at 5.   

 

If Hardik Pandya does decent with the bat at #7 that will go a long way in taking the pressure off the lineup - we simply have not been able to fill the Suresh Raina hole at #6 - the guy who can give you run-a-ball or better 30+ scores with a fair degree of consistency against international bowling.   

 

Adding an older Yuvi to this mix is also a bit of a question mark, he too, is slowing down a bit and needs a bit of time to get rolling. But I don't see any spot other than 5/6 for him if he plays.  

 

I think its totally fair to allow Dhoni an extended run at #4, something he has not gotten - and something he has earned the right for.  He has done the donkey's work in the lower order for a decade - if we can give Project Raina an extended run at 4, why not MS?  Its not like someone else has made that spot his own by scoring consistent runs anyway.  

 

I believe MS, even at 80% of his best, can do well at #4.  The question to be answered is, whether he's at 80% of his best, or much lower?  If he can't do well over the course of 6-7 games, then sentiment goes out the window.  We can't afford to give him 15 games to work it out.  Not when we have so many quality options burning their career primes on the bench.  

 

 

[BeautifulGame]

9 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

It is  34, 37, 68 and 25....there are 4 and not 5.

 

This is how Dhoni has done at No.4....we see similar trends too then but no big innings at 100+ SR  and Rahane has 3

 

Career averages

	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
unfiltered	283	246	67	9110	183*	50.89	10259	88.80	9	61	8	705	197	Profile
filtered	8	8	0	313	80	39.12	410	76.34	0	2	1	25	6

Innings by innings list

Runs	Mins	BF	4s	6s	SR	Pos	Dismissal	Inns		Opposition	Ground	Start Date
47	112	75	3	0	62.66	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	21 Jun 2015	ODI # 3660
69	112	77	6	1	89.61	4	caught	1		v Bangladesh	Dhaka	24 Jun 2015	ODI # 3661
47	85	61	5	0	77.04	4	caught	2		v South Africa	Rajkot	18 Oct 2015	ODI # 3695
18	18	13	1	1	138.46	4	caught	1		v Australia	Perth	12 Jan 2016	ODI # 3723
0	2	3	0	0	0.00	4	caught	2		v Australia	Canberra	20 Jan 2016	ODI # 3726
80	122	91	6	3	87.91	4	caught	2		v New Zealand	Mohali	23 Oct 2016	ODI # 3798
11	36	31	0	0	35.48	4	bowled	2		v New Zealand	Ranchi	26 Oct 2016	ODI # 3799
41	64	59	4	1	69.49	4	lbw	1		v New Zealand	Visakhapatnam	29 Oct 2016	ODI # 380

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/28081.html?batting_positionmax1=4;batting_positionmin1=4;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=start;spanmax1=08+Jan+2017;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

You have missed his knock against ZImbabwe .He has 5 knocks.

 

I aready said DHhoni had a poor year last year and no player is immune to it.

[Cricketics]

22 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Look at how our batters have fared in T0Is in the last 2 years  ( against non-minnows )....and we have played lots

 

Only Kohli, Dhoni, Rahul and Rohit have done well

 

Yuvi has been super bad and Raina has been poor too.

 

Dhawan and Rahane have been thankfully dropped.

 

Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
KL Rahul	2	1	1	110	110*	-	51	215.68	1	0	0	12	5
V Kohli	16	15	7	685	90*	85.62	485	141.23	0	7	0	71	12
MS Dhoni	19	16	11	235	43	47.00	149	157.71	0	0	0	16	10
RG Sharma	19	19	1	586	106	32.55	440	133.18	1	4	2	52	23
S Dhawan	15	15	1	299	60	21.35	252	118.65	0	2	0	34	10
SK Raina	17	14	2	256	49*	21.33	206	124.27	0	0	1	24	7
AM Rahane	7	7	2	102	40	20.40	96	106.25	0	0	1	8	0
Yuvraj Singh	14	10	2	141	35	17.62	145	97.24	0	0	1	10	7

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=3;filter=advanced;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=25;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=5;opposition=7;opposition=8;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=100;qualval1=runs;spanmin1=08+Jan+2015;spanval1=span;team=6;template=results;type=batting

 

That is why I have Pant ahead of all and asking to try Pandya to see what he is as he is rated very highly by many here(not me) as Yuvi and Raina, have been tried before and even though I still feel yuvi and Raina can bat and hit well, others deserve their chance ahead of these two.

 

Having Pant ahead of all means that we are giving him proper chance, though twenty20 is hardly a proper chance. Most well suited format would havr been 50 overs for him and he was not selected there. I do not want him to become a 2020 slogger like Pathan, hence need to see him more in 50 overs so he can transition into test side slowly. 

 

 

[express bowling]

Just now, BeautifulGame said:

You have missed his knock against ZImbabwe .He has 5 knocks.

 

I aready said DHhoni had a poor year last year and no player is immune to it.

All these stats are excluding Zim....for all the batters.

 

It is a poor 2 years.

 

As I said before, I am not too worried about Dhoni's  recent stats per se....can happen to anyone.

 

The main question is whether he can adapt his game to his slowed reflexes and build a game around that.....let's see....only time will tell.

[express bowling]

49 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

That is why I have Pant ahead of all and asking to try Pandya to see what he is as he is rated very highly by many here(not me) as Yuvi and Raina, have been tried before and even though I still feel yuvi and Raina can bat and hit well, others deserve their chance ahead of these two.

 

Having Pant ahead of all means that we are giving him proper chance, though twenty20 is hardly a proper chance. Most well suited format would havr been 50 overs for him and he was not selected there. I do not want him to become a 2020 slogger like Pathan, hence need to see him more in 50 overs so he can transition into test side slowly. 

 

 

Pant needs to get acclimatized to the pace of international bowlers. Openers slot is the worst slot to do that. the ball is hard, bounces more, zips through more and swings too ....what is the need of baptism by fire for a young kid who has played only a handful of FC ?

 

Batting in the middle order will mean a little less pace and a little less swing.

 

He can open after 10 matches or so.

 

Pandya is not a top 6 batter in internationals....why do we have to hide Yuvi and Raina in the lower-middle order behind all-rounders instead of choosing better T20 batters ?

Edited January 8, 2017 by express bowling

[Cricketics]

36 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

 

I believe MS, even at 80% of his best, can do well at #4.  The question to be answered is, whether he's at 80% of his best, or much lower?  If he can't do well over the course of 6-7 games, then sentiment goes out the window.  We can't afford to give him 15 games to work it out.  Not when we have so many quality options burning their career primes on the bench.  

 

 

Dhoni will quit playing if he knows he is struggling at 4. He knows that Kohli is India's best batsman and India's best chance to win big games is when Kohli gets support. Not every game Kohli is going to single handedly win games. He needs support and Dhoni is the right man to provide that at this time. 

 

Kohli's peak of the career where he threatens to break plenty of world records in ODI's warrants support of a batsman who averages 50 and can actually help Kohli relax even more and score more consistently without burning out or taking pressure by himself. This Kohli's patch deserves more victories and Kohli and Dhoni together batting for 20 overs can cause lot of problems for any bowling attack. And the line up will look more lethal if we manage to get good starts from our openers. 

 

 

[Cricketics]

6 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Pant needs to get acclimatized to the pace of international bowlers. Openers slot is the worst slot to do that. the ball is hard, bounces more, zips through more and swings to....what is the need of baptism by fire for a young kid who has played only a handful of FC ?

 

batting in the middle order will mean a little less pace and a little less swing.

 

He can open after 10 matches or so.

 

Pandya is not a top 6 batter in internationals....why do we have to hide Yuvi and Raina in the lower-middle order behind all-rounders instead of choosing better T20 batters ?

I am not even a fan of Pandy but people want Pandya as our all rounder who hits the ball hard etc. Well if he can do that than surely no problem in him coming ahead of Yuvi if only 4 overs are left to bat in a 2020 game going by what people have prophesized about him being a good hitter.

 

I would pick Raina any day over him, anyway as a hitter as I am yet to see Pandya do any damage.

But since people believe that he can hit, then why not use him in these meaningless twenty20s so we know what he is upto and how is his hitting ability. 

[Cricketics]

8 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Pant needs to get acclimatized to the pace of international bowlers. Openers slot is the worst slot to do that. the ball is hard, bounces more, zips through more and swings to....what is the need of baptism by fire for a young kid who has played only a handful of FC ?

 

batting in the middle order will mean a little less pace and a little 

He has to open in thencoming 2020s or at least bat higher up  around 12th over instead of coming at 6. Pant opening in twenty20 is better than him coming at 6 where he would hardly have chance to learn anything and would hit right from ball 1 and he will be required to hit from ball 1.

 

Pant has been rewarded Indian team slot because of his impressive scores at a good strike rate not because he scored some 30 ball 100 in Ranji. 

We need to use him up the order in the coming twenty20s or at least as early so he has good decent overs to bat. Say send him in 13th over so he has enough time to see the ball and rotate the strike and later hit. 

[express bowling]

10 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

I am not even a fan of Pandy but people want Pandya as our all rounder who hits the ball hard etc. Well if he can do that than surely no problem in him coming ahead of Yuvi if only 4 overs are left to bat in a 2020 game going by what people have prophesized about him being a good hitter.

 

I would pick Raina any day over him, anyway as a hitter as I am yet to see Pandya do any damage.

But since people believe that he can hit, then why not use him in these meaningless twenty20s so we know what he is upto and how is his hitting ability. 

Pandya should be used as a power-hitter in T20Is  after the 15th over....I am all for it.

 

Out of the 7 T20I innings Pandya has actually batted in....he has two innings of  27  off 12 balls   and  31  off  18 balls.....2 excellent cameos as per the needs of a T20 finisher.

 

The decision to use him there should be a positive one based on his strengths and not a negative one to hide the weaknesses of Yuvi and Raina.

[express bowling]

7 minutes ago, Cricketics said:

He has to open in thencoming 2020s or at least bat higher up  around 12th over instead of coming at 6. Pant opening in twenty20 is better than him coming at 6 where he would hardly have chance to learn anything and would hit right from ball 1 and he will be required to hit from ball 1.

 

Pant has been rewarded Indian team slot because of his impressive scores at a good strike rate not because he scored some 30 ball 100 in Ranji. 

We need to use him up the order in the coming twenty20s or at least as early so he has good decent overs to bat. Say send him in 13th over so he has enough time to see the ball and rotate the strike and later hit. 

Fair enough....but not as an opener in his first series.

 

No.4 would not be bad.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, tweaker said:

Dhoni should play his natural aggressive game now as his burden of captaincy has been removed.

His game has changed and agrressive game isn't natural to him anymore. He is more of a grafter now who can hit the ball mostly only the ball is in his arc.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

Thats because he batted most of last 2 years at no.6

 

source

He batted at 5-6 for most of his ODI career and still had a very good average.

[rkt.india]

8 hours ago, Cricketics said:

The fact that we are questioning Dhoni's batting is something wrong. He is clearly the best man to come after Kohli, someone I would depend on. Yes, we need to develop players for the future etc, but no. 5 and no. 6 are there for that.

There is nothing wrong in questioning even the greatest of the players. Team is bigger than any individual. Every player goes through a time when he is questioned irrespective of his greatness. Great Tendulkar went through the same. 

[BeautifulGame]

3 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

He batted at 5-6 for most of his ODI career and still had a very good average.

Because he was one of the greatest ever and was so good that he was even able to adjust his game to bat 5&6

 

Now he is past his best so he needs to bat at a position (top order) where he is more suited to..

[rkt.india]

7 hours ago, Cricketics said:

Stats just prove that Indian batting has struggled a lot and hence Dhoni can not continue to play the same game as you expect him to do.

 

Stats also prove like you said that Dhoni has struggle too. Yes, no doubt about that he has compared to his past.

 

Yes, he might not be the same big massive hitter, but he can not produce a more than run a ball, or run a ball inning every time, when we have struggled. We have lost plenty of games in last 2-3 years and our whole batting has been part of that problem, along with of course our bowling.

 

If Kohli or Sharma would have gone early, we have struggled fair bit and that has put plenty of pressure on Dhoni to keep his wicket and ensure he doesn't get out early to spark a collapse. This is actually the prime reason why he wants to come at no. 4 and give a better hand to Kohl, as they need someone solid in the middle order, as he as already scored lot of runs.

 

Anyways, the game has changed, as long as you can keep your wickets till 35th over, you can always score runs in the end, and that is what we are trying to do with Dhoni at 4 and Kohli at 3. If both of these guys are set till 35th over, we are looking at chasing most games successfully or setting up bigger totals.

 

 

How Indian batting has struggled? Kohli, Rohit both averaging 50+, dhawan his usual 40+. Rahane is unfit for ODIs and Raina has past it. We need to at least look beyond Rahane and Raina for ODIs. 

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

Because he was one of the greatest ever and was so good that he was even able to adjust his game to bat 5&6

 

Now he is past his best so he needs to bat at a position (top order) where he is more suited to..

I don't understand how he will do well just because he would bat in top order! He is not going to get that consistent performance back irrespective of his batting position. The reason of decline is not his batting number but losing reflexes and the change of his game.

[BeautifulGame]

10 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

I don't understand how he will do well just because he would bat in top order! He is not going to get that consistent performance back irrespective of his batting position. The reason of decline is not his batting number but losing reflexes and the change of his game.

Because the assumption/expectation is that with time to spend in the middle ,he can settle in without score board pressure score big and go for big hits in latter innings.Batting position becomes a major issue when he need to score quickly from the get go because of score board pressure. When constructing an innings in the top order he doesnt need to go for big every other over which is a massive difference.

 

Even with his slowed down reflexes he has been excellent in T20s in recent times .Having said all this he obviously need to retire/dropped if he struggles at no.4 as well.