So who is going to be our 2nd spinner in overseas?

[Ankit_sharma03]

38 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

One Kohli himself dropped Mishra for Jadeja after the first 2 tests in WI.Just like he never picked Karan again.So clearly recognizes them as mistakes.

And Jadeja has already proved he is a lethel bowler in 4th innings particularly when it is turning .So don't think that's an issue really.

He dropped them after their poor perfomanes....but the point is he goes for wkt taking bowlers. 

Proved lethal on indian pitches

HE was ineffective in 4th innings in lords. 

There is huge diff in pitches here n abroad and also the diff in ball

 

8 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

There is evidence to support that in overseas.

 

In England, Jaddu kept it tight but bowled like a robot in the same spot all day. Wasn't successful on Lord's day 5 when it turned. Ashwin looked much better which prompted commies to wonder where he had been all that series.

 

In NZ, Jaddu again kept tight which is great but had no effect on wickets.

 

Overseas, you need bowlers to make things happen. Just sitting back and bowling in one spot is great for a support spinner but not a strike bowler.

 

His average in Eng and NZ is 56 with a SR of 122. If he bowled in Aussie pattas, it would have shot up even more.

 

He is a solid support spinner but as a main spinner, I would not be too confident. However he is likely to bowl better in this cycle cos he seems to have improved these days.

agreed............

M asking the same question......who is that 2nd spinner who is good enough to main spinner when needed to be. We wont play 2 spinner and the scenario if ashwin gets injured or clobbered. 

If we have to win overseas, spinner has to play a huge role specially in 4th innings with all the pressure and wear n tear on the pitch

9 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

There is no need to play two spinners in playing 11 on test tours of England, NZ, Australia and SA. Those are the tour where we should ahve more pacers than spinners.

 

If Ashwin gets injured, Jadeja is likely to replace in playing 11.

yes likely but is that a good option. Next option isnt always the good

Edited March 12, 2017 by Ankit_sharma03

[sensible-indian]

Just now, Ankit_sharma03 said:

He dropped them after their poor perfomanes....but the point is he goes for wkt taking bowlers. 

 

agreed............

M asking the same question......who is that 2nd spinner who is good enough to main spinner when needed to be. We wont play 2 spinner and the scenario if ashwin gets injured or clobbered. 

If we have to win overseas, spinner has to play a huge role specially in 4th innings with all the pressure and wear n tear on the pitch

yes likely but is that a good option. Next option isnt always the good

There is no replacement for Ashwin like strike bowler for now. Kuldeep is potential and hype but his domestic stats don't look that great.

 

Jaddu is our 2nd spinner. Kuldeep must be given chances to see if he can come in if something happens to either of our 2 spinners.

 

I hope we don't make the mistake of dropping Ashwin/Jaddu after they have a a poor game overseas. These 2 are our best bet when they bowl in tandem.

[BeautifulGame]

There is evidence to support that in overseas.

 

In England, Jaddu kept it tight but bowled like a robot in the same spot all day. Wasn't successful on Lord's day 5 when it turned. Ashwin looked much better which prompted commies to wonder where he had been all that series.

 

In NZ, Jaddu again kept tight which is great but had no effect on wickets.

 

Overseas, you need bowlers to make things happen. Just sitting back and bowling in one spot is great for a support spinner but not a strike bowler.

 

His average in Eng and NZ is 56 with a SR of 122. If he bowled in Aussie pattas, it would have shot up even more.

 

He is a solid support spinner but as a main spinner, I would not be too confident. However he is likely to bowl better in this cycle cos he seems to have improved these days.

 

Even in this home season, for majority of the part, Jaddu was more of a support bowler than out and out strike bowler. Took 13 wickets in NZ series in 3 tests and 16 wickets in Eng series with a (SR of 82) until Chennai (Rashid had 22 wickets).

 

Post Chennai 2016, his bowling has been like that of a strike bowler but its been just 4 tests.

 

Jadeja has been a bowling much different since the West Indies series .Just people haven't been noticing it .

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/1086307.html

 

The impressive thing is he is still maintaining Hin control and economy rate unlike Ashwin.

[rkt.india]

5 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

Jadeja has been a bowling much different since the West Indies series .Just people haven't been noticing it .

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/1086307.html

 

The impressive thing is he is still maintaining Hin control and economy rate unlike Ashwin.

yes, he has been. I have noticed it. He is not bowling his darts anymore but varying his pace and flight.

[sensible-indian]

4 minutes ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

Jadeja has been a bowling much different since the West Indies series .Just people haven't been noticing it .

 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/story/1086307.html

 

The impressive thing is he is still maintaining Hin control and economy rate unlike Ashwin.

Which is why I mentioned he has improved these days in the above post. 

 

He has kept on improving his threat level.

 

Excellent article. It will be great for India if Jaddu can keep doing the same. Very consistent he is these days.

[sensible-indian]

Just one small part of the article I have issue with:

 

Quote

Perhaps Jadeja's inability to run through Australia in Pune - where conditions were tailor-made for his 2012-2015 version - was down to his becoming a more classic left-arm spinner. He found it difficult to operate away from a traditional good length, and often ended up turning the ball far too much and, as a consequence, missing the outside edge.

At the same time, though, Jadeja now looks more threatening on flat pitches than he used to, his changes of pace and trajectory keeping batsmen vigilant at all times where his earlier, metronomic style could occasionally bowl them into a rhythm.

 

There are tons of good points raised in that article but this above part seems like "finding answers that you want to find".

 

The past data doesn't point to what is being stated above.

 

Jaddu 1.0 was exemplary in 2012 Nagpur flat track where England were 120-4 at one stage. Second innings he wasn't that impactful. Just like Rajkot 2016 where he was better in first innings than second.

 

Jaddu 1.0 went wicketless in the 2015 Nagpur rank turner while he was the star on Day 5 Delhi track (along with Umesh Yadav) which had become a super flat on Day 5.

 

Jaddu has done well in flatties and rank turners equally well. Not done well in both tracks too at times. Just that the author took the "Jaddu is a rank turner bully" narrative a bit too seriously and is going for a drastic before/after effect which isn't there. Even the data from our home season isn't consistent with that viewpoint (first 7 games out of 11 - Jaddu performed below what he used to do in the version 1.0).

 

Apart from that, this was a much needed article. Jaddu gets overlooked a lot but he is a very good bowler (our best bowler on current form). Much improved these days and could perform very well overseas. Time will tell but signs are good.

Edited March 12, 2017 by sensible-indian

[Trichromatic]

At this rate Jadeja will soon overtake Ashwin in ICC rankings.

[sandeep]

The constant under-rating of Jaddu as a bowler is getting tiresome.  Myths keep getting regurgitated as if they were gospel.  

[Forever Indian]

3 minutes ago, sandeep said:

The constant under-rating of Jaddu as a bowler is getting tiresome.  Myths keep getting regurgitated as if they were gospel.  

There is nothing under-rating here. Both Jaddu and Ashwin are average overseas with Jaddu averaging 42 and Ashwin 33.

 

So both need to prove their true worth overseas.

[sensible-indian]

The first overseas assignment is NOT going to be easy.

 

SA are in a serious mood for revenge and they will go to any lengths to make sure spinners don't get an inch of help when we tour.

 

So the tour of SA...we may have to really plan well. Both Ash and Jaddu will be negated big time. Will be interesting to see how we cope.

[Forever Indian]

4 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

The first overseas assignment is NOT going to be easy.

 

SA are in a serious mood for revenge and they will go to any lengths to make sure spinners don't get an inch of help when we tour.

 

So the tour of SA...we may have to really plan well. Both Ash and Jaddu will be negated big time. Will be interesting to see how we cope.

If there is going to be no help for spinners, no point playing two spinners.Rather go with an extra bat or extra pacer depending on pitch.

[BeautifulGame]

The first overseas assignment is NOT going to be easy.

 

SA are in a serious mood for revenge and they will go to any lengths to make sure spinners don't get an inch of help when we tour.

 

So the tour of SA...we may have to really plan well. Both Ash and Jaddu will be negated big time. Will be interesting to see how we cope.

 

If they go full on revenge mode and stupidly prepare green mambas ,it will suit us .Our bowlers are a great threat on helpful conditions and will always trust our Batsmen over SA (or any other country for that matter ) in such wickets .

 

Our problem is if they prepare flat wickets with bounce which completely negates our seam attack as their inconsistency is exposed on these wickets .

[sensible-indian]

2 minutes ago, Forever Indian said:

If there is going to be no help for spinners, no point playing two spinners.Rather go with an extra bat or extra pacer depending on pitch.

Yes.....that's what is going to happen in SA most likely.

 

If its a seamer friendly track, go with extra bat.

 

If its a flat track, go with extra spinner. Here's why - We don't have 4 special pacers who could break through on a flatty. However with 2 spinners, we always stand a chance in 2nd innings moreover things can be kept tight for the 3 pacers to constantly attack.

[sandeep]

3 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

If they go full on revenge mode and stupidly prepare green mambas ,it will suit us .Our bowlers are a great threat on helpful conditions and will always trust our Batsmen over SA (or any other country for that matter ) in such wickets .

 

Our problem is if they prepare flat wickets with bounce which completely negates our seam attack as their inconsistency is exposed on these wickets .

That's the updated MO to beat Team India away from home - make sure spinners can't be in the game, don't provide too much help for swing/seam that makes Indian pacers effective, and then use attrition, experience and familiarity with local conditions to outplay them - nothing wrong with it.  But this is what needs to be countered with adequate prep, game-plan and execution.

[Gollum]

4 hours ago, sensible-indian said:

The first overseas assignment is NOT going to be easy.

 

SA are in a serious mood for revenge and they will go to any lengths to make sure spinners don't get an inch of help when we tour.

 

So the tour of SA...we may have to really plan well. Both Ash and Jaddu will be negated big time. Will be interesting to see how we cope.

I am sure they will do precisely this and play right into our hands. 1st series victory in RSA awaits us. In any case Ash is a starter for me in every match purely because of his batting on such tracks. His bowling is a bonus. Jaddu the bat will be like bali ka bakra over there. 

[renjith]

We need to find good wrist spinners to have an effective spinning option in overseas conditions. Even though their overall first class records are avg, both kuldeep and chahal had very good ranji last year. Giving chance to them is the only way to find if they are good enough. Even though an indian spinner does not have excellent first class records he can be effective against teams like eng,  nzw,  sa, and aus as batmen from those countries are poorer against spin compared to our domestic batsmen.

Edited March 12, 2017 by renjith

[Gollum]

Let me focus only on RSA because that is our 1st assignment. A lot of things will be clearer after that.

 

For me Ash is a sure starter because of his all round abilities. Where there is true bounce and no pitch sluggishness he is a top 6 bat no matter how much it swings/seams/bounces. No one in our team covers the line better than him. His batting in England 2014 and Australia 2011-12 is a reminder to all those those who want him dropped. His bowling is a plus. I am sure under an attacking skipper he will justify his number one rank but even if he fails he should not be dropped. His 35-40 runs may be the difference between defeat and victory. If he can score 60 runs per match and has bowling figures of say 40 overs, 140 runs, 4 wickets he will have done his job. But I honestly feel he can score a  100 at no 6 and pick 4+ wickets at least twice if he plays all 4 tests. He is our best AR since Kapil and Kohli must back him. 

 

On normal RSA pitches we HAVE to play 5 bowlers including both Ash and Jaddu. Both of them complement each other very well and bowl better in tandem. Rotate Shami, Ishant, Umesh and Bhuvi depending on the conditions so that only 3 play per match. This will also keep the quicks fresh and prevent injuries. We must seriously manage the workloads of our pacers because we have 5 tests in England and 4 in Australia next year. But on green tops we have to play 3 quicks (one must be Bhuvi) plus Ash because we need batting there. Jaddu the batsman doesn't cut it, period.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Gollum

[Ankit_sharma03]

58 minutes ago, Gollum said:

On normal RSA pitches we HAVE to play 5 bowlers including both Ash and Jaddu. Both of them complement each other very well and bowl better in tandem. Rotate Shami, Ishant, Umesh and Bhuvi depending on the conditions so that only 3 play per match. This will also keep the quicks fresh and prevent injuries. We must seriously manage the workloads of our pacers because we have 5 tests in England and 4 in Australia next year. But on green tops we have to play 3 quicks (one must be Bhuvi) plus Ash because we need batting there. Jaddu the batsman doesn't cut it, period.

U cnt have jaddu or ashwin as ur 6th batsman, Sa is bloody good bowling attack. As good as ashwin is the quality of bowling Sa will throw up will be extremely tough. Then there is Saha as well. Our batting wud need some sought of cushion in Sa keeping in mind the bowling as well 

 

If india wants to go with an all rounder options can be

1. shankar, but is his bowling that good enough even though his job wud be to bowl 10-15 over max and just hold that end

2. Pandya- his batting has to improve leaps n bounces if we have to rely on him ( if its a patta track can think of him, as his bowling wud be more then useful)

3. Jayant- its unlikely but if kohli wants to play a leg spinner or someone like kuldeep he may come in picture. 

 

Jaddu will look like a tail ender in front of SA bowlers . 

 

As for quickes i want to see few new additions specially Nathu n aniket 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Ankit_sharma03

[Ankit_sharma03]

5 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

 

If they go full on revenge mode and stupidly prepare green mambas ,it will suit us .Our bowlers are a great threat on helpful conditions and will always trust our Batsmen over SA (or any other country for that matter ) in such wickets .

 

Our problem is if they prepare flat wickets with bounce which completely negates our seam attack as their inconsistency is exposed on these wickets .

I think teams over the world have realized thats its not a good option to give indian bowler green mamba which actually brings them in the game, somewhat like what rank turners does to overseas avg spinners.

They hve understood that by giving Indian bowlers just a lil help or making absolute patta they kind of take them out of the game and kookabura only adds to their misery. 

 

If they prepare flat track we might needs someone like Pandya who can also be good bowlers and can bowl more then the 5th bowlers quota. But his batting has to come good. Also before we go to Sa hope we solve the good wkt keeper batsman issue

[Gollum]

9 hours ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

U cnt have jaddu or ashwin as ur 6th batsman, Sa is bloody good bowling attack. As good as ashwin is the quality of bowling Sa will throw up will be extremely tough. Then there is Saha as well. Our batting wud need some sought of cushion in Sa keeping in mind the bowling as well 

Ashwin is a damn good batsman. Check his batting in 2014 Old Trafford. I am willing to put my neck out and say Ashwin is a better batsman overseas than Pujara.  Jaddu, Saha are mediocre compared to him. 

 

I have seen enough of Vijay Shankar in domestic cricket and sorry to say he is not international class either with bat or ball. His batting is worse than Gurkeerat and Rishi Dhawan. Same with Hardik Pandya. Jayant simply doesn't warrant a place in the team, I find his bowling way too over rated. 

 

Play Ash in all 4 tests at number 6: I guarantee he will be amongst our top 4 run getters bu the end of the series. At his best he can match even Rahane/Kohli in his strokeplay and get a brisk counter attacking 100. That's why I said check the Old Trafford test. England had a damn good bowling attack, pitch was difficult and our batsmen were folding like a pack of cards. Ashwin looked the most comfortable in both innings and the way he covered the line of Anderson and Broad, proper old school test batting.....no fluke like Jaddu's Lord's innings.