So who is going to be our 2nd spinner in overseas?

[Ankit_sharma03]

So who is our 2nd best spinner overseas after Ashwin.

What if ashwin is injured of struggles in overseas. Then whats the backup plan. 

Jadeja- well he relies heavily on home pitches and in overseas the ball also changes from SG to kookabura which most spinners dont enjoy. As we have seen he wont be effective overseas. He can only tie runs at one end which would have worked had we had mcgrath, Steyn marshall in our bowling lineup
Mishra- hasnt done well on test level
Jayant- doesnt look like someone who could be ur main spinner. Can improve though 
Kuldeep- untested.... but wrist spinners generally do well overseas. 
Bhajji- past his expiry date 

Chahal - not meant for long formats

Rahul Chahar- way to young

 

Who else???????? Overseas tours are coming up.......where is our answer to this problem. Hope Kuldeep gets a game in last 2 test

 

Next A-tours please don't take Nadeem n all. Give a lot of games to Kuldeep n Jayant. 

I think Jayant can also go n Play county cricket and he shud be pushed to . It ll improve his all round game a lot. 

[Muloghonto]

Jadeja. Its pretty easy - the 2nd spinner being someone who is metronomically consistent and restricting in nature.

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

10 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Jadeja. Its pretty easy - the 2nd spinner being someone who is metronomically consistent and restricting in nature.

 

2 spinner wnt even play.

2nd spinner role is to be the 1st spinner when he is injured or anything else. Jadeja cant be our main spinner overseas 

[Muloghonto]

13 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

2 spinner wnt even play.

2nd spinner role is to be the 1st spinner when he is injured or anything else. Jadeja cant be our main spinner overseas 

Uh, he is the 2nd best spinner in Indian conditions, so he is the 2nd best spinner option overseas. We don't have a second spinner who is also attacking, with variety and consistency over L&L like Ashwin- then he'd be our 2nd spinner at home too.

So lacking that option, the best case is to pick a spinner who is metronomic and at the very least, keep the runs down.

Also, against teams that are wonky against spin- like South Africa or New Zealand, it'd make sense to play both spinners, even overseas, if we go with 5 bowler option.

 

[OpeningBatsman]

I like kuldeep in limited overs, but his  first class bowling average is pretty mediocre (33).

I think he'll turn out to be a fine ltd overs bowler but need more time to develop his long format game. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[OpeningBatsman]

I don't think Jayant is going to be a long term guy if he doesn't improve. I don't know, something about his bowling doesn't look right. 

Very slow though the air, no big turn no x factor. 

So, as of now we don't really have someone who can pickup wickets overseas consistently. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by OpeningBatsman

[rkt.india]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Uh, he is the 2nd best spinner in Indian conditions, so he is the 2nd best spinner option overseas. We don't have a second spinner who is also attacking, with variety and consistency over L&L like Ashwin- then he'd be our 2nd spinner at home too.

So lacking that option, the best case is to pick a spinner who is metronomic and at the very least, keep the runs down.

Also, against teams that are wonky against spin- like South Africa or New Zealand, it'd make sense to play both spinners, even overseas, if we go with 5 bowler option.

 

They are wonky against spin when ball turns. Ball hardly turns in those places. Example NZ last Tour, in ODIs, Ashwin picked 1 wicket in four games at 219. 

[Gollum]

We need to pick only 2 spinners in our squad, ATGwin and Sir. Jayant doesn't put enough body in his stride and Kuldeep is untested. Ideally will play both spinners every match unless it's a greentop. 

[BeautifulGame]

At this form Jadeja could sneak ahead of Ashwin as our no.1 spinner overseas let alone no.2 behind Ashwin.

 

Also he has taken a six feet at Durban.So he doesn't enjoy kookabura ball is baseless.

 

And more importantly spinners job overseas is keeping it tight and build pressure and take the odd wickets , particularly in the first innings .It's the seamers job to take majority of wickets.

 

If u are expecting spinners to win u matches overseas then we have zero chance of taking 20 wickets .

 

So to sum it both Ashwin and Jadeja pretty good choices .They r the least of our worries in overseas conditions.

[Trichromatic]

There is tough competition between Ashwin and Jadeja and Ashwin will get preference for his reputation. However it seems that Jadeja won't struggle more than Ashwin overseas.

 

Ashwin hasn't got many chances in Eng, SA and NZ. Jadeja did well in 1 match in SA and if Ashwin doesn't perform in at least 1 inning in each of these coutries then it would be difficult for him to remain first choice spinner outside Asia.

 

Keshav Maharaj recently took a 5-fer in NZ. Almost all good spinners manage to perform once in SA, NZ, Aus and Eng. Bhajji took a 7-fer in SA. Kumble had his good moments in Aus, Eng. Swann, Ajmal, Herath, Yasir - name any spinner and they do shine some day. Ashwin has already taken 250+ wickets without performing even once in any of these countries. 

[sensible-indian]

1 hour ago, Trichromatic said:

There is tough competition between Ashwin and Jadeja and Ashwin will get preference for his reputation. However it seems that Jadeja won't struggle more than Ashwin overseas.

 

Ashwin hasn't got many chances in Eng, SA and NZ. Jadeja did well in 1 match in SA and if Ashwin doesn't perform in at least 1 inning in each of these coutries then it would be difficult for him to remain first choice spinner outside Asia.

 

Keshav Maharaj recently took a 5-fer in NZ. Almost all good spinners manage to perform once in SA, NZ, Aus and Eng. Bhajji took a 7-fer in SA. Kumble had his good moments in Aus, Eng. Swann, Ajmal, Herath, Yasir - name any spinner and they do shine some day. Ashwin has already taken 250+ wickets without performing even once in any of these countries. 

And all of those spinners got a consistent crack which allowed them to play on tough as well as easy pitches overseas and make a mark.

 

Dropped for Durban, Lord's and Adelaide.

 

No spinner has played on just 6 pattas outside Asia and nothing else. If we do a like to like comparison taking prominent spinners on such pitches, the stats would look very different.

 

When Ashwin got a turner in Sydney (2nd innings) in 2014, he took 4 out of 5 wickets and was set for a 8fer (Aus declared cos they were ahead in the game).

 

When he got a shot in Oval, he outperformed even Yasir by taking 3 wickets in first innings (Yasir, Ajmal did well in 2nd innings in Oval in Pak's tours - Ash never got a shot in 2nd innings due to India crumbling with the bat).

 

Keshav Maharaj has a lot of potential (haven't seen him much though but heard good things about him) but that NZ pitch was probably slow which is why even home team went with 2 full time spinners.

 

In Australia, Ashwin and Lyon in 2014 have the same stats in the 3 games they played inspite of the huge difference in pace attack, position of team, etc. Ashwin was the highest wicket taker with Hazlewood inspite of bowling one innings less. 

 

In WI, Ashwin averaged 23 in WI where other spinners averaged 35-65. Jaddu averaged well but low sample sets (bowled a bit in 2 innings that's all - that Bhuvi test).

 

I feel that both Ash and Jaddu should be played outside Asia. Kuldeep must be tested too and kept as backup.

Edited March 12, 2017 by sensible-indian

[Trichromatic]

22 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

And all of those spinners got a consistent crack which allowed them to play on tough as well as easy pitches overseas and make a mark.

 

Dropped for Durban, Lord's and Adelaide.

 

No spinner has played on just 6 pattas outside Asia and nothing else. If we do a like to like comparison taking prominent spinners on such pitches, the stats would look very different.

 

When Ashwin got a turner in Sydney (2nd innings) in 2014, he took 4 out of 5 wickets and was set for a 8fer (Aus declared cos they were ahead in the game).

 

When he got a shot in Oval, he outperformed even Yasir by taking 3 wickets in first innings (Yasir, Ajmal did well in 2nd innings in Oval in Pak's tours - Ash never got a shot in 2nd innings due to India crumbling with the bat).

 

Keshav Maharaj has a lot of potential (haven't seen him much though but heard good things about him) but that NZ pitch was probably slow which is why even home team went with 2 full time spinners.

 

In Australia, Ashwin and Lyon in 2014 have the same stats in the 3 games they played inspite of the huge difference in pace attack, position of team, etc. Ashwin was the highest wicket taker with Hazlewood inspite of bowling one innings less. 

 

In WI, Ashwin averaged 23 in WI where other spinners averaged 35-65. Jaddu averaged well but low sample sets (bowled a bit in 2 innings that's all - that Bhuvi test).

 

I feel that both Ash and Jaddu should be played outside Asia. Kuldeep must be tested too and kept as backup.

 I am aware of all those matches and conditions Ashwin played in. That's why I avoided using word failure and mentioned that Ashwin hasnt performed outside rather than saying he has failed. He is yet to make a mark and remains mostly untested in unfamiliar conditions.

 

But then there isn't much evidence to suggest that Jadeja can't perform as good as Ashwin there.

[Pollack]

We are delaying kuldeep more than required. He would require some time to settle in but once he does he will be potentially more dangerous weapon overseas than ashwin or jadeja since he is not a finger spinner.

[sensible-indian]

18 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

 I am aware of all those matches and conditions Ashwin played in. That's why I avoided using word failure and mentioned that Ashwin hasnt performed outside rather than saying he has failed. He is yet to make a mark and remains mostly untested in unfamiliar conditions.

 

But then there isn't much evidence to suggest that Jadeja can't perform as good as Ashwin there.

Yeah....will be interesting to see how they go in this cycle. Both have different strengths. The 2013 SA tour may have turned out different had both played.

 

 

[Ankit_sharma03]

7 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Uh, he is the 2nd best spinner in Indian conditions, so he is the 2nd best spinner option overseas. We don't have a second spinner who is also attacking, with variety and consistency over L&L like Ashwin- then he'd be our 2nd spinner at home too.

So lacking that option, the best case is to pick a spinner who is metronomic and at the very least, keep the runs down.

Also, against teams that are wonky against spin- like South Africa or New Zealand, it'd make sense to play both spinners, even overseas, if we go with 5 bowler option.

 

No thats not the case, good at home doesnt mean will be good overseas

Mishra was preffered over jaddu in WI, reason kohli like wkt taking bowlers over someone like jadeja who will only be a defensive bowler overseas at best. 

 

No we wont play 2 spinner overseas, i think before WI the last time that wud have happ regularly might be when kumble n bhajji played . Those 2 were top class spinner all over world. Also we coudnt rely much on pacers as well those days. Today is a diff story. 

U shud see our spinners stats in Sa n Nz....

[Trichromatic]

2 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

No thats not the case, good at home doesnt mean will be good overseas

Mishra was preffered over jaddu in WI, reason kohli like wkt taking bowlers over someone like jadeja who will only be a defensive bowler overseas at best. 

There is no evidence to support that. Jadeja's SR is better than most of our spinners. Just because he is economical doesn't mean he isn't a strike bowler or he is worse than others in this aspect.

[Ankit_sharma03]

3 hours ago, BeautifulGame said:

At this form Jadeja could sneak ahead of Ashwin as our no.1 spinner overseas let alone no.2 behind Ashwin.

 

Also he has taken a six feet at Durban.So he doesn't enjoy kookabura ball is baseless.

 

And more importantly spinners job overseas is keeping it tight and build pressure and take the odd wickets , particularly in the first innings .It's the seamers job to take majority of wickets.

 

If u are expecting spinners to win u matches overseas then we have zero chance of taking 20 wickets .

 

So to sum it both Ashwin and Jadeja pretty good choices .They r the least of our worries in overseas conditions.

Right now our captain is kohli he doesnt look to contain....he looks for wkts

Thats y he likes leg spinners- Karan sharma, mishra have been examples of that

 

Spinners are needed in 4th innings, so they need to have wkt taking ability . When we were doing well in overseas kumble n bhajji had a huge role to play. 

 

IF ashwin gets injured or struggles in overseas......well we do have a worry.

[BeautifulGame]

 

Right now our captain is kohli he doesnt look to contain....he looks for wkts

 

Thats y he likes leg spinners- Karan sharma, mishra have been examples of that

 

 

 

Spinners are needed in 4th innings, so they need to have wkt taking ability . When we were doing well in overseas kumble n bhajji had a huge role to play. 

 

 

 

IF ashwin gets injured or struggles in overseas......well we do have a worry.

 

 

 

 

One Kohli himself dropped Mishra for Jadeja after the first 2 tests in WI.Just like he never picked Karan again.So clearly recognizes them as mistakes.

 

 

And Jadeja has already proved he is a lethel bowler in 4th innings particularly when it is turning .So don't think that's an issue really.

 

[Straight Drive]

There is no need to play two spinners in playing 11 on test tours of England, NZ, Australia and SA. Those are the tour where we should ahve more pacers than spinners.

 

If Ashwin gets injured, Jadeja is likely to replace in playing 11.

[sensible-indian]

47 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

There is no evidence to support that. Jadeja's SR is better than most of our spinners. Just because he is economical doesn't mean he isn't a strike bowler or he is worse than others in this aspect.

There is evidence to support that in overseas.

 

In England, Jaddu kept it tight but bowled like a robot in the same spot all day. Wasn't successful on Lord's day 5 when it turned. Ashwin looked much better which prompted commies to wonder where he had been all that series.

 

In NZ, Jaddu again kept tight which is great but had no effect on wickets.

 

Overseas, you need bowlers to make things happen. Just sitting back and bowling in one spot is great for a support spinner but not a strike bowler.

 

His average in Eng and NZ is 56 with a SR of 122. If he bowled in Aussie pattas, it would have shot up even more.

 

He is a solid support spinner but as a main spinner, I would not be too confident. However he is likely to bowl better in this cycle cos he seems to have improved these days.

Even in this home season, for majority of the part, Jaddu was more of a support bowler than out and out strike bowler. Took 13 wickets in NZ series in 3 tests and 16 wickets in Eng series with a (SR of 82) until Chennai (Rashid had 22 wickets).

 

Post Chennai 2016, his bowling has been like that of a strike bowler but its been just 4 tests.

Edited March 12, 2017 by sensible-indian