Where will VK be ranked amongst Indian test captains if India win an overseas test match under him this year?

[sourab10forever]

2 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

He's on course to becoming the most successful Indian Test captain in terms of wins. Surely by the end of the next home cycle. Already has 20 wins under his belt with 3 losses (Aus 2, 1 SRL). The record is Dhoni with 27.

 

If we manage to draw the next three overseas tours or lose, win and draw 1 series each, he'll do his legacy no harm. I think drawing the next three overseas series would be a serious achievement. 

Agree.

 

Drawing/Winning even one of the three will be a great achivement.

[Khota]

A captain doing well in India is not a major acheivement anymore as india has the best bats and bowlers playing for them. I love kohli but dont elevate him to some superman status.

 

For me the best captain India ever had was Saurav Ganguly and no one comes close. 

Edited December 23, 2017 by Khota

[diga]

4 hours ago, jalebi_bhai said:

He's on course to becoming the most successful Indian Test captain in terms of wins. Surely by the end of the next home cycle. Already has 20 wins under his belt with 3 losses (Aus 2, 1 SRL). The record is Dhoni with 27.

 

If we manage to draw the next three overseas tours or lose, win and draw 1 series each, he'll do his legacy no harm. I think drawing the next three overseas series would be a serious achievement. 

Just shows the stupidity of extending Dhoni's test captaincy career.. 

[diga]

On 12/22/2017 at 7:35 PM, GolGappe said:

He is already up there. Looking at his predecessors,

Sachin/Azhar - Nothing to show. Maybe a series win in SL.

Ganguly - Won a series in Pakistan and a commendable drawn series in Australia.

Dravid - Series wins in England and WI.

Dhoni - Series wins in WI and NZ. Additionally, one hard-fought drawn series in RSA?

Kohli - Already won two series in SL and one in WI. One more series-win in England, RSA, NZ, or Aus would really cement his legacy. Couple more would push him to the very top of list of India's greatest test captains.

 

If I remember correclty, Kohli also captained two test matches in Australia and both matches were drawn while India lost the other two under Dhoni.

Statistically its Dravid due to the series wins in Eng/WI/Pak and test win in SA... But for the spunk shown it has to be Gangu-Dada

[Trichromatic]

On 22/12/2017 at 7:21 PM, sourab10forever said:

Has already achieved so much as a  captain in the test format....

 

*Longest Streak.

*#1 test side.

*Best W/L ratio.

*has led from the front as a batsmen.

 

Mind you they have played every team at home...now if this team under Kohli can win a game or two in AUS/SA/ENG/NZ...where will it rank Kohli?

 

Also take this into account that for that first time in history India is playing with 2 bowlers averaging 23-25 in test cricket. Along with that we have 1 pacer who is averaging 27 and other 30. 

 

This is practically best bowling line up India could have ever assembled. Heck bowlers like Ishant and Umesh would have been first choice for most of our test teams earlier. 

 

Our best has been spinner averaging 27-30 (Kumble, Bhajji), with 30-32 averaging lead pacer and rest all pacers of 35-40 avg category. 

 

Along with that I don't think we ever had 3 openers with avg 41-45. Our best options were Sehwag and Gambhir and they weren't great out Asia. Rahul, Vijay combination looks great for all conditions. Middle order is only group whch isn't best in our test history but it is still one of the best. Dravid-SRT-Laxman were better than Pujara-Kohli-Rahane. Saha is good bat followed by 2 all rounders which is again a luxury never had.

 

This team was built before Kohli's captaincy. Any captain will have great record at home with such set of players in form. Kohli's contribution will be to develop Kuldeep, Rahul, Pandya and Umesh. Even if he doesn't contribute, as long as he doesn't become a hurdle like he has been done so far, he will do good work. 

 

If he continues to ignore Rahul, I will not rate him above even SRT as captain.

[sourab10forever]

19 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Also take this into account that for that first time in history India is playing with 2 bowlers averaging 23-25 in test cricket. Along with that we have 1 pacer who is averaging 27 and other 30. 

 

This is practically best bowling line up India could have ever assembled. Heck bowlers like Ishant and Umesh would have been first choice for most of our test teams earlier. 

 

Our best has been spinner averaging 27-30 (Kumble, Bhajji), with 30-32 averaging lead pacer and rest all pacers of 35-40 avg category. 

 

Along with that I don't think we ever had 3 openers with avg 41-45. Our best options were Sehwag and Gambhir and they weren't great out Asia. Rahul, Vijay combination looks great for all conditions. Middle order is only group whch isn't best in our test history but it is still one of the best. Dravid-SRT-Laxman were better than Pujara-Kohli-Rahane. Saha is good bat followed by 2 all rounders which is again a luxury never had.

 

This team was built before Kohli's captaincy. Any captain will have great record at home with such set of players in form. Kohli's contribution will be to develop Kuldeep, Rahul, Pandya and Umesh. Even if he doesn't contribute, as long as he doesn't become a hurdle like he has been done so far, he will do good work. 

 

If he continues to ignore Rahul, I will not rate him above even SRT as captain.

Yes..VK had it easy as he had a great team.

 

Only credits to him would be the attitude change he has bought into the team. Also the fact of bringing in the 5 bowler culture. The young team could have fallen apart if not for a binding force like Kohli. 

Also with any team.. achieving a long streak of dominance that he has is commendable. MSD had a great team but lost a series to ENG at home.

 

The following happening will ensure that VK will be amongst the top 2-3 Indian Captains...maybe even no.1 : 

 

*An away series win/draw

*Manages to leave a good team for the next captain with a good bench strength.

*Develops a good slip cordon and realized it's importance

 

Anyways...history will look more at numbers than anything else and VK will go down as the number 1 by the time he resigns captaincy.

[Trichromatic]

1 hour ago, sourab10forever said:

Yes..VK had it easy as he had a great team.

 

Only credits to him would be the attitude change he has bought into the team. Also the fact of bringing in the 5 bowler culture. The young team could have fallen apart if not for a binding force like Kohli. 

Also with any team.. achieving a long streak of dominance that he has is commendable. MSD had a great team but lost a series to ENG at home.

 

The following happening will ensure that VK will be amongst the top 2-3 Indian Captains...maybe even no.1 : 

 

*An away series win/draw

*Manages to leave a good team for the next captain with a good bench strength.

*Develops a good slip cordon and realized it's importance

 

Anyways...history will look more at numbers than anything else and VK will go down as the number 1 by the time he resigns captaincy.

1. No, I won't call it having easy. When you have great team, winning is like scoring par score on flat pitch. While you can say that conditions are helpful, but still you have to score and you should get credit for that. Similarly, if you're winning with great team, it means that you're not doing too many wrong things.

 

2. All this attitude change stuff is PR stuff being floated around by Shastri and Kohli by their words. I don't see much difference from their predecessors.

 

3. 5 bowlers strategy is a great change. Captain is supported by having 2 ARs averaging 30 with bat and Pandya in team. But yes, it's a welcome change and imo best part of Virat's captaincy. Ashwin and Jadeja easily cover a place for extra batsman.

 

4. Only in form players MSD had from current team were Ashwin and Pujara. Even Kohli wasn't at this form, although one can say he had been missing in tough conditions anyway. If you see whenever Ashwin has looked flat, Jadeja has carried this bowling attack. No one did that in that 2012 Eng series. That team still won 4-0 against Aussies, but it was nowhere a great team. Sehwag, Gambhir, SRT are replaced by Vijay, Rahul, Dhawan and in form Kohli. Add Jadeja as batsman and he has done better than top 3 combined of MSD team.

 

5. 1-0 series win against SL - all teams have done that. Aus series win was due to Rahul who is now being ignored. Kohli was reluctant to play Kuldeeep who won 4th test for us. I don't know how would you give credit to Kohli as captains for those results. 4-0 against England and 3-0 against SL were freakish results, something we don't achieve easily. Especially England series which we won on flat pitches. No way any other Indian team could have won that. Both Ashwin and Jadeja converted a possible draw into win in 4th and 5th tests respectively. Also note that one of the biggest factors in our home wins - Pujara would have been shown door by Kohli for his mate Rohit if he hadn't scored that timely after WI series. Remove Pujara and Rahul from team which Kohli has been willing to do and we could have lost Aus series at home.

 

Overall, just for performance he is going to be most successful captain in India, and he should be given credit for those results.

[jalebi_bhai]

2 hours ago, Trichromatic said:

Also take this into account that for that first time in history India is playing with 2 bowlers averaging 23-25 in test cricket. Along with that we have 1 pacer who is averaging 27 and other 30. 

 

This is practically best bowling line up India could have ever assembled. Heck bowlers like Ishant and Umesh would have been first choice for most of our test teams earlier. 

 

Our best has been spinner averaging 27-30 (Kumble, Bhajji), with 30-32 averaging lead pacer and rest all pacers of 35-40 avg category. 

 

Along with that I don't think we ever had 3 openers with avg 41-45. Our best options were Sehwag and Gambhir and they weren't great out Asia. Rahul, Vijay combination looks great for all conditions. Middle order is only group whch isn't best in our test history but it is still one of the best. Dravid-SRT-Laxman were better than Pujara-Kohli-Rahane. Saha is good bat followed by 2 all rounders which is again a luxury never had.

 

This team was built before Kohli's captaincy. Any captain will have great record at home with such set of players in form. Kohli's contribution will be to develop Kuldeep, Rahul, Pandya and Umesh. Even if he doesn't contribute, as long as he doesn't become a hurdle like he has been done so far, he will do good work. 

 

If he continues to ignore Rahul, I will not rate him above even SRT as captain.

A not so subtle way of saying that this is Dhoni's team. Fair enough.

 

Simple question then, why didn't Dhoni hang around for a few more years in Test cricket to reap the benefits of the team he built? Why the mid-series retirement? 

 

Considering his extraordinarily high fitness levels, his improved defensive technique, cat-like agility and unmatched cricket acumen, Dhoni could've easily carried on till his mid 40s and won 50+ Tests. I personally think that he retired way too quickly.

[Rasgulla]

25 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

A not so subtle way of saying that this is Dhoni's team. Fair enough.

Who debuted in tests under him so far? It's not wrong to say it's Dhoni's team he is playing with..

 

Let's look at the present XI Test team

 

1.Dhawan - Debut under Dhoni.. Constantly picked on people here till today

 

2.Vijay - CSK quota.. debut under Dhoni

 

3. Pujara - Debut under Dhoni 

 

3. Kohli -  Debut under Dhoni

 

4.Rahane - Debut under Dhoni

 

5. Rohit - Debut under Dhoni.. playing alot under Virat than he ever did for Dhoni

 

6. Saha/patel - replacements for Dhoni

 

7. Àshwin - CSK quota

 

8. Jaddu - CSK quota

 

9. Shami - Debut under Dhoni.. Gets Injured a lot

 

10. Bhuvi - Trudler that dhoni likes.. cause his hands hurt.. Debut under Dhoni

 

11.  Kuldeep - Debut under Rahane.. We all know kohli-kumble saga

 

Extras 

 

12. Umesh - Played a lot under Dhoni.. Gets dropped regularly under Virat cause Saha hands hurt... because phasttt

 

13. Pandya - Debut under Kohli.. Indian kallis... bowling still a question how long will he last ? 

 

14. Nair - Debut under Kohli.. What's the story with him ? Where is he gone.. 300+ against ENG

 

He got Gambhir back and jadhav or something.. I even forgot that dudes name spinner/allrounder..

 

----- 

 

3 years since Dhoni.. Pretty much team he built is still going on strong 

 

9 or 10 of starting 11 players who debuted under Dhoni ll be playing in RSA.. Whereas the team is good enough to win in RSA is concerned.. We have a tough competition last time with all the exp from last time.. Hopefully they ll compete atleast.. 

 

 

 

 

[jalebi_bhai]

26 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Who debuted in tests under him so far? It's not wrong to say it's Dhoni's team he is playing with..

 

Let's look at the present XI Test team

 

1.Dhawan - Debut under Dhoni.. Constantly picked on people here till today

 

2.Vijay - CSK quota.. debut under Dhoni

 

3. Pujara - Debut under Dhoni 

 

3. Kohli -  Debut under Dhoni

 

4.Rahane - Debut under Dhoni

 

5. Rohit - Debut under Dhoni.. playing alot under Virat than he ever did for Dhoni

 

6. Saha/patel - replacements for Dhoni

 

7. Àshwin - CSK quota

 

8. Jaddu - CSK quota

 

9. Shami - Debut under Dhoni.. Gets Injured a lot

 

10. Bhuvi - Trudler that dhoni likes.. cause his hands hurt.. Debut under Dhoni

 

11.  Kuldeep - Debut under Rahane.. We all know kohli-kumble saga

 

Extras 

 

12. Umesh - Played a lot under Dhoni.. Gets dropped regularly under Virat cause Saha hands hurt... because phasttt

 

13. Pandya - Debut under Kohli.. Indian kallis... bowling still a question how long will he last ? 

 

14. Nair - Debut under Kohli.. What's the story with him ? Where is he gone.. 300+ against ENG

 

He got Gambhir back and jadhav or something.. I even forgot that dudes name spinner/allrounder..

 

----- 

 

3 years since Dhoni.. Pretty much team he built is still going on strong 

 

9 or 10 of starting 11 players who debuted under Dhoni ll be playing in RSA.. Whereas the team is good enough to win in RSA is concerned.. We have a tough competition last time with all the exp from last time.. Hopefully they ll compete atleast.. 

 

 

 

 

Did I say it's not his team?

 

My question is this, why did he not lead his team for a few more years after building it? Why the mid-series retirement? What happened? 

[Shunya]

16 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Did I say it's not his team?

 

My question is this, why did he not lead his team after building it? Why the mid-series retirement? 

Umm, isnt it obvious with Dhoni. Someone who always believed in the process and future and everything, he (and everyone in mgmt) knew that next 2-3 years were all comparatively easy assignments at home. I feel he was asked to continue till Australia tour because there were no options till then. Virat only peaked during Aus tour which everyone was hoping for till then. He delivered and became the leader. Its good that Dhoni and mgmt realized it and gave him the chance right away instead of waiting to win some games at home and all crap.

Process must go on. We gave the new captain a chance to build a strong team by winning at home and now comes the biggest test. We also are doing same preparations in ODIs like giving 2 years of match experience to the core team. The only process that is not followed is no debutants and young studs like Rahul getting games. That is a weird thing alltogether, but process is permanent and shall continue on forever regardless of Dhoni or Kohli and regardless of ICF hating it

[jalebi_bhai]

15 minutes ago, Shunya said:

Umm, isnt it obvious with Dhoni. Someone who always believed in the process and future and everything, he (and everyone in mgmt) knew that next 2-3 years were all comparatively easy assignments at home. I feel he was asked to continue till Australia tour because there were no options till then. Virat only peaked during Aus tour which everyone was hoping for till then. He delivered and became the leader. Its good that Dhoni and mgmt realized it and gave him the chance right away instead of waiting to win some games at home and all crap.

Process must go on. We gave the new captain a chance to build a strong team by winning at home and now comes the biggest test. We also are doing same preparations in ODIs like giving 2 years of match experience to the core team. The only process that is not followed is no debutants and young studs like Rahul getting games. That is a weird thing alltogether, but process is permanent and shall continue on forever regardless of Dhoni or Kohli and regardless of ICF hating it

Virat didn't build anything. This is Dhoni's team. 

 

Half of my question still remains unanswered. Why did Dhoni even retire from Tests? He is supremely fit, faster than Usain Bolt over 22 yards ( @velu has the numbers), improved defensive technique, hamstrings have the strength of reinforced titanium, better player of swing bowling than Kohli and the greatest cricketing mind of the 21st century. Leaving captaincy is one thing. He just retired from Test cricket altogether.

Considering the above, was it necessary? Was kicking himself out the final step of the team building process? 

 

 

[Rasgulla]

2 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Virat didn't build anything. This is Dhoni's team. 

 

Half of my question still remains unanswered. Why did Dhoni even retire from Tests? He is supremely fit, faster than Usain Bolt over 22 yards ( @velu has the numbers), improved defensive technique, hamstrings have the strength of reinforced titanium, better player of swing bowling than Kohli and the greatest cricketing mind of the 21st century. Leaving captaincy is one thing. He just retired from Test cricket altogether. Considering the above, was it necessary? 

 

 

Maybe he wasn't interested in format anymore...  That's a good question

[velu]

4 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Virat didn't build anything. This is Dhoni's team. 

 

Half of my question still remains unanswered. Why did Dhoni even retire from Tests? He is supremely fit, faster than Usain Bolt over 22 yards ( @velu has the numbers), improved defensive technique, hamstrings have the strength of reinforced titanium, better player of swing bowling than Kohli and the greatest cricketing mind of the 21st century. Leaving captaincy is one thing. He just retired from Test cricket altogether. Considering the above, was it necessary? 

 

 

he can retire from T20s and unretire from ODIs

[jalebi_bhai]

4 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Maybe he wasn't interested in format anymore...  That's a good question

 

[Rasgulla]

15 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

 

Because he is afraid of Umesh yadav breaking his fingers by bowling phasttt.. as said by many Phastt pans.... 

 

Years of captaincy,playing 3 formats took its toll.. Reducing workload maybe.. Only he knows

[jalebi_bhai]

3 minutes ago, Rasgulla said:

Because he is afraid of Umesh yadav breaking his fingers by bowling phasttt.. as said by many Phastt pans.... 

 

Years of captaincy,playing 3 formats took its toll.. Reducing workload maybe.. Only he knows

Maybe he got bored of losing overseas Tests 

 

[Shunya]

12 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Maybe he got bored of losing overseas Tests 

 

He already answered this when he retired. Playing as a wk/batsman/captain with so much cricket in all formats plus IPL takes its toll. Sometimes overdoing things can result in bad injuries and other fitness issues. He is probably fit as bolt now because he retired from some form of cricket and decided to work on his fitness with rising age. 

[jalebi_bhai]

2 minutes ago, Shunya said:

He already answered this when he retired. Playing as a wk/batsman/captain with so much cricket in all formats plus IPL takes its toll. Sometimes overdoing things can result in bad injuries and other fitness issues. He is probably fit as bolt now because he retired from some form of cricket and decided to work on his fitness with rising age. 

So he prioritized IPL over Test cricket? He gave up the chance to lead the team he built to glory for tamaasha cricket?

 

[Rasgulla]

19 minutes ago, jalebi_bhai said:

Maybe he got bored of losing overseas Tests 

 

He could be been  MTC's "aiilaaa" here and retire at the end of home series..After that away Aus series(2014). for next 3 years we had nothing  but lot of home series and srilanka away.. He said its not fair for New captain to start away tours..