Are Ramayan and Mahabharata real?

[MechEng]

Yes they are real. Evidence is not always the answer to the truth, humans do not necessarily leave behind the evidence for future generation, like how we won't do anything specific today so that the coming generation in the next 1000 years remembers us. 

[zen]

15 minutes ago, MechEng said:

Yes they are real. Evidence is not always the answer to the truth, humans do not necessarily leave behind the evidence for future generation, like how we won't do anything specific today so that the coming generation in the next 1000 years remembers us. 

Ramayana and Mahabharata are part of our cultural and religious heritage. These books and beliefs have shaped our region .... Only dumbasses will try to play down the importance of their own heritage by claiming it may not be true, and that too at times to showcase their limited intelligence .... It is similar to Kalidas trying to cut the branch that he was sitting on 

[sarcastic]

6 hours ago, zen said:

The point is that those who believe in Ram and Krishna to be Gods will believe the books to be true.  Bhagvat Gita, the holy book, is based on what the Lord tells to Arjuna

 

Rest is immaterial as we are not at the point where we understand everything. x does not equate to y is something that most people understand. Scientists, corporate lawyers, mathematicians, etc., do believe in God 

 

Fully agreed with the bolded sentences. For a person with faith on certain God(s) will believe the books to be truth and as far as the person is concerned, the God(s) are real and the holy book is sacred and truth. There are indeed people from all professions who do believe in God. In my opinion, nobody has the right to say to such people what should or should not believe or what they should or should not consider something as real. 

 

Rest is not immaterial from a commonsense point of view. A lot of Christians might believe that Jesus Christ has resurrected himself after three days after his crucifixion and came alive and talked to his disciples. But from a commonsense point of view, there is no conclusive evidence that such an event has happened. Ilayaraja made such a comment and it was deemed controversial. But I will completely attest his statement because there is indeed no conclusive evidence that it has happened. We are not ruling out that such a thing DID NOT take place. But there is no way we can ascertain that it DID take place. For believing Christians, it is real and so be it (as far as they are concerned). 

 

All I am saying is, from the OP @rkt.india's perspective, "Are Ramayan and Mahabharat real?" he is asking a simple commonsensical question. Did they happen like some other historical events... Did Mahabharat war happen just like the three batttles of Panipat happened. Then we cannot base our answer to that question from  perspective of "Faith" or existence of God. 

Do we have evidence using similar means like we deduced Ashoka's Kalinga war or Panipat wars or several others.  

 

The answer that posters such as @Gollum and @Muloghonto are giving seems to be NO. 

Edited April 22, 2018 by sarcastic

[zen]

2 hours ago, sarcastic said:

 

Rest is not immaterial from a commonsense point of view. A lot of Christians might believe that Jesus Christ has resurrected himself after three days after his crucifixion and came alive and talked to his disciples. But from a commonsense point of view, there is no conclusive evidence that such an event has happened. Ilayaraja made such a comment and it was deemed controversial. But I will completely attest his statement because there is indeed no conclusive evidence that it has happened. We are not ruling out that such a thing DID NOT take place. But there is no way we can ascertain that it DID take place. For believing Christians, it is real and so be it (as far as they are concerned). 

 

All I am saying is, from the OP @rkt.india's perspective, "Are Ramayan and Mahabharat real?" he is asking a simple commonsensical question. Did they happen like some other historical events

We have to understand that a lack of evidence does not imply an event did not happen or cannot happen especially when dealing in subjects such as of Gods, who by definition have extraordinary powers

 

Also what we look for is based on our limited knowledge. We do not know all there is to know and there are a lot of unknown unknowns. Add to that the process of judging worshipped all powerful supreme beings as if they have limitations like us 

 

This is also like asking Muslims - does Allah exist? Or asking Christians - Does God exist? How can it be proven Jesus is the son of God? It is like asking Sikhs if there is evidence their gurus had any special powers. What evidence is there to show this? .... It is a matter of faith. 75% of the population on earth follows one of the major religions 

 

It is unfortunate that many Hindus don’t even realize how sensitive such topics are. And they attack the key foundations of the region’s system of beliefs and culture. In a region where most states have their own language, it is these commonalities that bind us. What is in these books have shaped us to a certain extent

 

If we go to Rome, for e.g., we would see that even an old rock is displayed in its full glory due to its historic/cultural importance. In India, people have hardly invested anything relatively speaking to understand their own history/culture, let alone try to stand up for it 

 

What is to be gained by discussing whether Ramayana / Mahabharata is historic? Why not focus on its positive impact on culture and the people of and from the region? Billions of people visit temples (including for getting married, celebrating festivals, seeking blessings, etc.) of Gods that some folks are indirectly trying to prove they don’t exist by questioning these books. That is a laughable exercise that people with common sense and high EQ would likely not undertake in the first place 

 

Edited April 22, 2018 by zen

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, zen said:

We have to understand that a lack of evidence does not imply an event did not happen or cannot happen especially when dealing in subjects such as of Gods, who by definition have extraordinary powers

 

Also what we look for is based on our limited knowledge. We do not know all there is to know and there are a lot of unknown unknowns. Add to that the process of judging worshipped all powerful supreme beings as if they have limitations like us 

 

This is also like asking Muslims - does Allah exist? Or asking Christians - Does God exist? How can it be proven Jesus is the son of God? It is like asking Sikhs if there is evidence their gurus had any special powers. What evidence is there to show this? .... It is a matter of faith. 75% of the population on earth follows one of the major religions 

 

It is unfortunate that many Hindus don’t even realize how sensitive such topics are. And they attack the key foundations of the region’s system of beliefs and culture. In a region where most states have their own language, it is these commonalities that bind us. What is in these books have shaped us to a certain extent

 

If we go to Rome, for e.g., we would see that even an old rock is displayed in its full glory due to its historic/cultural importance. In India, people have hardly invested anything relatively speaking to understand their own history/culture, let alone try to stand up for it 

 

What is to be gained by discussing whether Ramayana / Mahabharata is historic? Why not focus on its positive impact on culture and the people of and from the region? Billions of people visit temples (including for getting married, celebrating festivals, seeking blessings, etc.) of Gods that some folks are indirectly trying to prove they don’t exist by questioning these books. That is a laughable exercise that people with common sense and high EQ would likely not undertake in the first place 

 

And thats precisely why Rome and the west have a far greater sense of their heritage than Indians. 
Italians don't give a flying fig about Aeneas. Or the epic stories of the Aenid. They care about their ACTUAL history. The Caesars, the Empire, the Republic, the city-states. 

Indians meanwhile, know jack $hit about the ACTUAL historical stalwarts of India. No one knows or cares about Amogavarsha or Indra III or DevaPala or Nagabhatta or Mahapadma Nanda. The Hinduvta narrow vision of psuedo-history is confined to debating Ramayana, Mahabharata and the Aryan migration/non-migration nonsense.

All the while, ignoring the actual rich 2500 years of history we possess. 

 

No concept, idea or culture, is beyond reproach or beyond change. That our ignorant ancestors formed their beliefs around the stories of the Mahabharata/Ramayana is no justification for us to hold it sacred, with the far superior knowledge we possess. Sure, it is part of our heritage but it is not beyond questioning either. Nothing is and that is the way of the scientific mindset- to always re-evaluate, investigate and go by the latest information at hand.

 

[Muloghonto]

There is no shame in admitting that Ramayana and Mahabharata are largely works of fiction, that has shaped our cultural heritage. 

For that, is the objective truth. One can value the impact of a book to a culture and still admit that the book is not factual.

 

[Jimmy Cliff]

This is probably a dumb question but how can they be real if they were written by Ved Vyas/Valmiki?

[adi B]

There are people who believe in the anecdotes from those epics and can relate them to their real lives and if you are a Hindu (mandir Jane wala regardless of any culture) they'd mostly believe in the epics with valid plausibility. 

Then there are other people (most of the atheist ) who won't give two hoots about the epics and classify them as fantasy and they too may have valid claims wrt to their thought process.

Your wish which side of the group you'd want to believe  in 

Edited April 22, 2018 by adi B

[zen]

  The power of ‘om’ 

[zen]

Unfortunately, our values have been hijacked by those using religion for their own benefits and libtards, bigots in their own way 

 

Add to that the influence of west. And the dogma of anything western (foreign) considered automatically superior to local 

 

Our culture, books, history, records, etc., have been influenced by a lot of undesirable factors

Edited April 22, 2018 by zen

[rkt.india]

On 4/22/2018 at 5:45 PM, zen said:

Unfortunately, our values have been hijacked by those using religion for their own benefits and libtards, bigots in their own way 

 

Add to that the influence of west. And the dogma of anything western (foreign) considered automatically superior to local 

 

Our culture, books, history, records, etc., have been influenced by a lot of undesirable factors

No idea what values are you talking about! Rhetoric don't become value. They are values only when they are embraced. Mahabaharat, Ramayan, Geeta. These all consist of rhetoric and has no real effect on human beings in a positive way.  They have just been limited to festival celebration and has no practical effect in any sphere of India.  What is the use until people embrace those teachings! This in itself explains how fictional and Utopian these epics have been.  

[zen]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

No idea what values are you talking about! Rhetoric don't become value. They are values only when they are embraced. Mahabaharat, Ramayan, Geeta. These all consist of rhetoric and has no real effect on human beings in a positive way.  They have just been limited to festival celebration and has no practical effect in any sphere of India.  What is the use until people embrace those teachings! This in itself explains how fictional and Utopian these epics have been.  

Criminal minded individuals in India are not likely to be influenced by anything. On the other hand, millions of people are guided by these books 

 

 

[Alam_dar]

On 22/04/2018 at 3:20 AM, zen said:

We have to understand that a lack of evidence does not imply an event did not happen or cannot happen especially when dealing in subjects such as of Gods, who by definition have extraordinary powers

Also what we look for is based on our limited knowledge. We do not know all there is to know and there are a lot of unknown unknowns. Add to that the process of judging worshipped all powerful supreme beings as if they have limitations like us 

People may be told to absolutely not ask for the evidences for the religious stories of Quran/Bible/Ramain while almighty god/gods has/have the powers to demolish all the scientific evidences. 

 

But when people ask for "evidences" then they mean the modern scientific evidences. 

Therefore, it is not wrong and very safe to say that all the scientific evidences are going against the stories of Bible, Quran and Ramain/Mahabharat. 

 

 

Quote

This is also like asking Muslims - does Allah exist? Or asking Christians - Does God exist? How can it be proven Jesus is the son of God? It is like asking Sikhs if there is evidence their gurus had any special powers. What evidence is there to show this? .... It is a matter of faith. 75% of the population on earth follows one of the major religions 

I would be glad if people do question more and more about the Quranic and Biblical stories. 

 

Also I would ask the religious people why all the god/gods of Christianity/Islam/Hinduism wanted to always destroy all the scientific evidences of all the stories that are found in all these religious books? 

 

There exists no logic behind the destruction of all the scientific evidences by the god/gods. 

 

Quote

It is unfortunate that many Hindus don’t even realize how sensitive such topics are. And they attack the key foundations of the region’s system of beliefs and culture. In a region where most states have their own language, it is these commonalities that bind us. What is in these books have shaped us to a certain extent

I hear the same logics and arguments presented by the Muslims of Pakistan. For them too religion is a binding force in Pakistan, without which Pakistan is going to be destroyed. 

 

I never agreed with those Muslims. 

 

It is only "Humanity" which should be the binding force. 

 

If we say religion is above Humanity, and Hinduism is a uniting force in India, then how could the Muslims and Christians and Sikhs of India could ever call themselves Indians? 

 

Quote

If we go to Rome, for e.g., we would see that even an old rock is displayed in its full glory due to its historic/cultural importance. In India, people have hardly invested anything relatively speaking to understand their own history/culture, let alone try to stand up for it 

In Europe, no body goes to Church, or give damn to the history of Church (except for the religious Christians, who are becoming less and less in numbers). Still they bind themselves with other people, and especially the difference between white/black was removed and European people even fighting for the rights of the animals. All that happened while Humanity is the binding force. 

 

Quote

What is to be gained by discussing whether Ramayana / Mahabharata is historic? Why not focus on its positive impact on culture and the people of and from the region? Billions of people visit temples (including for getting married, celebrating festivals, seeking blessings, etc.) of Gods that some folks are indirectly trying to prove they don’t exist by questioning these books. That is a laughable exercise that people with common sense and high EQ would likely not undertake in the first place 

In my opinion, equation is very simple. 

These billion of people are fully free to "preach" about their religion and religious stories. 

While even if there exist a single person who disagrees with these religious stories, then he has got the full right to question and criticize them by bringing his arguments and evidences. 

 

If these billions of people feel themselves threatened by the questioning and evidences of this single person and want to take away the right to question/criticize from the others, then such religion could never be worthy to be followed. It is very true for Islam, and also very true for all other religions of the world 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Alam_dar

[Stradlater]

On Sun Apr 22 2018 at 5:45 PM, zen said:

Unfortunately, our values have been hijacked by those using religion for their own benefits and libtards, bigots in their own way 

 

Add to that the influence of west. And the dogma of anything western (foreign) considered automatically superior to local 

 

Our culture, books, history, records, etc., have been influenced by a lot of undesirable factors

Umm India is the birth place of quite a few atheist schools actually. Not everyone was mesmerized by the bhagwans back in the day. Even the greatest Indian ever born in last two millennia, Adi Shankaracharya didn't exactly believe in the concept of God as most Hindus do presently.

[Stradlater]

As the great Christopher Hitchens would say, Morality isn't derived from religion, it precedes it.

[zen]

53 minutes ago, Alam_dar said:

People may be told to absolutely not ask for the evidences for the religious stories of Quran/Bible/Ramain while almighty god/gods has/have the powers to demolish all the scientific evidences. 

 

But when people ask for "evidences" then they mean the modern scientific evidences. 

Therefore, it is not wrong and very safe to say that all the scientific evidences are going against the stories of Bible, Quran and Ramain/Mahabharat. 

 

 

I would be glad if people do question more and more about the Quranic and Biblical stories. 

 

Also I would ask the religious people why all the god/gods of Christianity/Islam/Hinduism wanted to always destroy all the scientific evidences of all the stories that are found in all these religious books? 

 

There exists no logic behind the destruction of all the scientific evidences by the god/gods. 

 

I hear the same logics and arguments presented by the Muslims of Pakistan. For them too religion is a binding force in Pakistan, without which Pakistan is going to be destroyed. 

 

I never agreed with those Muslims. 

 

It is only "Humanity" which should be the binding force. 

 

If we say religion is above Humanity, and Hinduism is a uniting force in India, then how could the Muslims and Christians and Sikhs of India could ever call themselves Indians? 

 

In Europe, no body goes to Church, or give damn to the history of Church (except for the religious Christians, who are becoming less and less in numbers). Still they bind themselves with other people, and especially the difference between white/black was removed and European people even fighting for the rights of the animals. All that happened while Humanity is the binding force. 

 

In my opinion, equation is very simple. 

These billion of people are fully free to "preach" about their religion and religious stories. 

While even if there exist a single person who disagrees with these religious stories, then he has got the full right to question and criticize them by bringing his arguments and evidences. 

 

If these billions of people feel themselves threatened by the questioning and evidences of this single person and want to take away the right to question/criticize from the others, then such religion could never be worthy to be followed. It is very true for Islam, and also very true for all other religions of the world 

Buddy, you are going on a different tangent.No one is preaching everyone to be Hindus. People know all these basic concepts

 

It is threads like these that try to preach God does not exist. The topic of God is itself about beliefs 

 

PS to draw parallels, it is like someone going to a mosque where everyone is doing their Namaz and telling them that they are wrong to believe in Allah and are wasting their time in mosque. There is no scientific / historic evidence that Allah exists. Show me Allah exists or your religion is fake

 

Such questions have been asked since centuries but the religions stand. Religions are followed by scientists and historians too. So may be there is more to religion, including different metrics

Edited April 24, 2018 by zen

[zen]

5 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

Umm India is the birth place of quite a few atheist schools actually. Not everyone was mesmerized by the bhagwans back in the day. Even the greatest Indian ever born in last two millennia, Adi Shankaracharya didn't exactly believe in the concept of God as most Hindus do presently.

Exceptions are not rules. And it shows that in general people are not being forced to become Hindus 

 

if if you don’t believe in God, so be it. It does not change the fact how our region in general is influenced by these books

[Stradlater]

32 minutes ago, zen said:

Exceptions are not rules. And it shows that in general people are not being forced to become Hindus 

 

if if you don’t believe in God, so be it. It does not change the fact how our region in general is influenced by these books

I have no problems in People staying Hindu. Heck I'm a cultural Hindu myself as in celebrating all festivals and taking pride in achievements of our forefathers.

But this rigid brand of Hinduism being imposed upon us by the Hindutvavadis (not as much as the sellout media would like to portray but to a certain extent yes) isn't what I agree with.

This is not Dharma. It's a Jihadist version of Hinduism.

[zen]

1 minute ago, Stradlater said:

I have no problems in People staying Hindu. Heck I'm a cultural Hindu myself as in celebrating all festivals and taking pride in achievements of our forefathers.

But this rigid brand of Hinduism being imposed upon us by the Hindutvavadis (not as much as the sellout media would like to portray but to a certain extent yes) isn't what I agree with.

This is not Dharma. It's a Jihadist version of Hinduism.

I don’t agree with the religious bigots’ version as well, nor do I buy libtards’ interpretation of it 

 

These ppl are using religion to advance their own interests. I m standing up for what I love, the great things about our culture and beliefs (and of course the Gods) 

 

It is funny how these topics creates a perception of polarization when there exists a 3rd group as well, people like us (have included you too) 

[Alam_dar]

1 hour ago, zen said:

PS to draw parallels, it is like someone going to a mosque where everyone is doing their Namaz and telling them that they are wrong to believe in Allah and are wasting their time in mosque. There is no scientific / historic evidence that Allah exists. Show me Allah exists or your religion is fake

I hope a time comes when such questions about god could be openly asked even in the mosques, as god could be mentioned and preached everywhere. 

Therefore, if people have the right to preach their religion, then there is nothing wrong to question and criticize Allah anywhere including mosques.

1 hour ago, zen said:

Such questions have been asked since centuries but the religions stand. Religions are followed by scientists and historians too. So may be there is more to religion, including different metrics

Good if religious people think that questioning/criticizing their gods/religions brings nothing and their religion still stands. 

 

Nevertheless, in my view there is a huge difference between the thousands of years old history and situation of today. While today we are living in highly scientifically developed society. Religions are no more able to answer the scientific questions and they are on the run. The numbers of people who are leaving religion today is unprecedented in whole human history.