Hinduphobic Bollywood

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, someone said:

Exploitation, that's different and nobody has denied it. But point is why our people today continually made to feel guilty of about the crimes of past?

Because its NOT in the past. Caste-based discrimination is still there today. 

1 hour ago, someone said:

How many Muslims today feel guilty and apologetic about crimes against India and Hindus in particular?

Irrelevant. "How about that murderer who got off free, why are you prosecuting me ?" is not a valid line of defense. Open up a thread about it if you feel like it and that issue will be addressed seperately. 

1 hour ago, someone said:

Similar case of western people and their crimes against Indian, Africa, natives.

And plenty of western 'liberals' suffer from/over-compensate for white guilt. 

1 hour ago, someone said:

We are the only ones who are bullied, seen as guilty, and really have a deep inferior complex. And bollywood reflects that with the 3Cs, caste, curry and cow.

Hindus are not the only ones who have their flaws pointed out. Infact, amongst all these, Christians have the thickest skins - what they get made fun of in the US/western media is something most Hindus would have heart-attacks on. Muslims have the thinnest skins of all and Hindus are as usual, sandwiched between. 

1 hour ago, someone said:

That brings to key difference between religious groups for me. Many abrahamic religions hide a lot of their history and thus, today many facts are seen as almost like it never happened. Whereas, we are fed with constant atrocity literature about ourselves by the west and bollywood uses these western view of India.

Pffft. As an atheist, i will say this - christians are by far the most tolerant people of all religion when it comes to poking fun at their scriptures and holy figures.

 

[Muloghonto]

2 hours ago, dial_100 said:

The one who knows bramh and can feel param chaitanya is a bramhan. Rest you choose your own titles. No offense.

nobody knows bramh. Knowledge is based on facts and proofs. Some believe in Bramh. some believe in other deities. And they think bleief equals knowledge. it does not.

I believe in kindness and compassion - but i dont claim them to be universal truth/facts either. Just my own beliefs.

 

[Global.Baba]

9 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

nobody knows bramh. Knowledge is based on facts and proofs. Some believe in Bramh. some believe in other deities. And they think bleief equals knowledge. it does not.

I believe in kindness and compassion - but i dont claim them to be universal truth/facts either. Just my own beliefs.

 

Yeah the same facts about the political climate and caste situation in present day India ,you brushed away because you traveled on a motorcycle and ate at a few fancy dhabas and got information from a few waiters who were probably just humoring you and playing along with your preconceived biases. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

Yeah the same facts about the political climate and caste situation in present day India ,you brushed away because you traveled on a motorcycle and ate at a few fancy dhabas and got information from a few waiters who were probably just humoring you and playing along with your preconceived biases. 

err, the facts about political climate is irrelevant to my point, since i am not commenting on the political climate but the actual presence and influence of caste system in India. It is a big thing still in most of rural India and i can see, as a city-slicker who only ever hears of caste references from parents during marriage time ( which still counts as a social ill and discrimination btw), why you are finding this so hard to believe. 

Anyone who says caste is not an issue in India today, is simply speaking, a casteism-denier and therefore, a problem to India. This is a classic difference between nationalism (you) vs patriotism : where a nationalist will sweep the actual ills facing his people and nation to preserve pride values, while a patriot will strive for betterment of the people of the nation itself, especially in social terms.

I can really start to embarass you by posting real-time news on caste based incidents any-time you wish, by the way. 

[Muloghonto]

An Indian saying caste is not a problem anymore in India is like an American saying that racism is not a problem in America. 

And then citing how much worse it was for the discriminated against ( colored in America, lower castes in India) 50 years ago, so therefore, the problem today does not exist.

The two sides of the same coin that seeks to preserve 'image' over acceptance of the truth.

And if my OCI status bothers you so much, i am sure i can find you several home-grown Indians who think caste is still an evil plague on india. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Muloghonto

[velu]

23 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

An Indian saying caste is not a problem anymore in India is like an American saying that racism is not a problem in America. 

And then citing how much worse it was for the discriminated against ( colored in America, lower castes in India) 50 years ago, so therefore, the problem today does not exist.

The two sides of the same coin that seeks to preserve 'image' over acceptance of the truth.

And if my OCI status bothers you so much, i am sure i can find you several home-grown Indians who think caste is still an evil plague on india. 

 

caste still plays important role in south india .. 

in south esp in TN people dont even marry people from similar sub-castes in arranged marriages

[Muloghonto]

36 minutes ago, velu said:

 

caste still plays important role in south india .. 

in south esp in TN people dont even marry people from similar sub-castes in arranged marriages

Indeed. Most rural Indians still face severe barriers to social and marital peace due to caste based problems. 

And as such, such backwards practices should be called out as backwards instead of brushed under the carpet under the cloud of 'but but there are worse religions/ideas out there than this, its gone from being 'pure unadulterated evil' to ' slightly more palatable evil'' types of whatabout-isms. 

Touchy Hindus may feel like they are 'defending their religion' but instead, they are propping up the evils of their religion just to save face against other religions. 

[Global.Baba]

50 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

An Indian saying caste is not a problem anymore in India is like an American saying that racism is not a problem in America. 

And then citing how much worse it was for the discriminated against ( colored in America, lower castes in India) 50 years ago, so therefore, the problem today does not exist.

The two sides of the same coin that seeks to preserve 'image' over acceptance of the truth.

And if my OCI status bothers you so much, i am sure i can find you several home-grown Indians who think caste is still an evil plague on india. 

Thanks for making my point for me. A black kid in a hoodie getting shot by a white cop might be an act of racist bias and phobia but that you cannot go around propagating theories of the “evil white master” like you have been propagating the “evil brahmanical angle” in all your previous posts.

 

That doesn’t make USA a racist country. Trust me no black life matters activist will trade his American citizenship for any other country. Your beloved Canada included.

 

I have never once said caste is not a problem in India. That is a pretty big and broad statement to make not so different from your broad generalization.

 

Caste is more of a political tool these days. There is no Hinduism or Bhramanical angle to it. Plenty of castes which were considered backward 100-200 years back enjoy good political status these days.  How difficult is it for you to understand that?  Things have changed a lot. 

 

Hinduism doesn’t not have a religious figurehead like the pope calling shots or asking people to discriminate each other. 

 

I have no problem with your OCI status but I have problem with your ignorant stereotyping when the ground realities are totally different. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

Thanks for making my point for me. A black kid in a hoodie getting shot by a white cop might be an act of racist bias and phobia but that you cannot go around propagating theories of the “evil white master” like you have been propagating the “evil brahmanical angle” in all your previous posts.

You know jack $hit about both countries, that much is apparent. I am not saying evil white master, neither am i saying evil brahmanical master. But fact is, there is systematic racism in the US and there is systmatic casteism in India. 

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

That doesn’t make USA a racist country. Trust me no black life matters activist will trade his American citizenship for any other country. Your beloved Canada included.

Pfft. We get plenty of US applicants who want to be Canadian. 
And yes, it does make USA a racist country, because race is a systematic problem in the US - not just about cops shooting black people for no reason (thats only one, most visible angle to it). 

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

 

I have never once said caste is not a problem in India. That is a pretty big and broad statement to make not so different from your broad generalization.

You have said multiple times its not really a problem and its a problem of the past. 

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

Caste is more of a political tool these days. There is no Hinduism or Bhramanical angle to it.

Yes, there is. The entire basis of caste discrimination lies on brahmins making a system that benefits them by putting them at/near the top in theory/practice. 

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

Plenty of castes which were considered backward 100-200 years back enjoy good political status these days.  How difficult is it for you to understand that?  Things have changed a lot. 

Doesn't change the FACT that most lower caste people in rural India still face discrimination from the upper castes. How hard is THAT for you to understand ?

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

 

Hinduism doesn’t not have a religious figurehead like the pope calling shots or asking people to discriminate each other. 

No, it just has a longstanding tradition of Brahmins being shysters propagating the sanctity of the caste system. They still do it socially. 

 

1 hour ago, Global.Baba said:

I have no problem with your OCI status but I have problem with your ignorant stereotyping when the ground realities are totally different. 

Ground realities are different from what hindu-apologists like you want to pretend- just to preserve your twisted sense of reputation, when its easy to prove that caste is a big problem in india. 

[Global.Baba]

33 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Yes, there is. The entire basis of caste discrimination lies on brahmins making a system that benefits them by putting them at/near the top in theory/practice. 

And for the 100th time that is no different from a caste that is politically powerful now using their status as a leverage to reap benefits.

 

Demanding reservations, Vote bank politics, Buisness related contracts within one powerful community etc happen even now.

 

This will happen anywhere and everywhere till the end of humanity.

 

So this system that is put in place is not exclusive to  Brahmins. It is basic politics.

 

Stop sounding like one of those European evangelists who pick and chose social evils elsewhere  and indulge in poverty porn.

 

 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Global.Baba

[Muloghonto]

11 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

And for the 100th time that is no different from a caste that is politically powerful now using their status as a leverage to reap benefits.

The social advantages enjoyed in little villages that make up MOST OF INDIAN PEOPLE has nothing to do with political power of the Brahmins - which mostly, does not exist. Yet, they benefit from propagating the evils of it. 

 

So now you are changing your argument from 'caste is not evil' to ' any caste thats in power will propagate the evil'. Whatever. All the more reason to keep hammering at the caste ideology of hinduism & allied faiths, till its GONE. 

 

11 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Demanding reservations, Vote bank politics, Buisness related contracts within one powerful community etc happen even now.

 

This will happen anywhere and everywhere till the end of humanity.

Sure. And people with strong ethics will keep calling it out for being evil while people with weak ethics will keep justifying it. 

11 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

So this system that is put in place is not exclusive to  Brahmins. It is basic politics.

Never said its exclusive to the brahmins. but they also profit SOCIALLY and in may village communities, CULTURALLY by propagating this notorious ideology. 

And its brahmins who propagate the system by presiding over it in religious ceremonies. Your caste matters for naming ceremonies, marriage ceremonies etc - all these are backwards, evil & nonsense that hinduism has struggled to reform itself from and is a testament to the pervasiveness of the evils within the hindu system. 

11 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Stop sounding like one of those European evangelists who pick and chose social evils elsewhere  and indulge in poverty porn.

No. Not going to stop calling out the ills of hinduism till they are remedied.  Nobody is picking and choosing social evils when we talk about a particular religious evil. 
 

[Global.Baba]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

The social advantages enjoyed in little villages that make up MOST OF INDIAN PEOPLE has nothing to do with political power of the Brahmins - which mostly, does not exist. Yet, they benefit from propagating the evils of it. 

 

So now you are changing your argument from 'caste is not evil' to ' any caste thats in power will propagate the evil'. Whatever. All the more reason to keep hammering at the caste ideology of hinduism & allied faiths, till its GONE. 

 

Sure. And people with strong ethics will keep calling it out for being evil while people with weak ethics will keep justifying it. 

Never said its exclusive to the brahmins. but they also profit SOCIALLY and in may village communities, CULTURALLY by propagating this notorious ideology. 

And its brahmins who propagate the system by presiding over it in religious ceremonies. Your caste matters for naming ceremonies, marriage ceremonies etc - all these are backwards, evil & nonsense that hinduism has struggled to reform itself from and is a testament to the pervasiveness of the evils within the hindu system. 

No. Not going to stop calling out the ills of hinduism till they are remedied.  Nobody is picking and choosing social evils when we talk about a particular religious evil. 
 

No one is justifying. Yeah you can give lectures on moral science about meritocracy etc all you want, I am just pointing out your myopic thinking like either ignorant  goras or evangelists with an agenda that everything was great with humanity and then Brahmins showed up and divided society and took advantage and oppressed people.

 

Communities working for their own gain is not exclusive to India and Hinduism.

 

Sarvejana Sukhinobhavantu meaning bliss and peace upon all is the basic essence of our religion and it is part of our Vedic chants. Brahmins have not changed any scriptures. As people have mentioned varnas and jaatis are not the same as caste system. However these were interpreted by foreign scholars over the years and was manipulated as per convinience.

 

How come the benevolent Mughals and British allowed one caste to run riot by oppressing people?  

 

Massacre of scholars and destruction of places of worship and education was done by Islamic rulers. Are you one of those who think that they did this to save innocent oppressed backward castes? Clearly backward castes progressed under their rule didn’t it?

 

What is deemed as Forward and backward castes were a British classification to understand Indian society based on the political hierarchy of that time . However I am not that naive in thinking that Brahmins and other forward castes did not  oppress some people for their own gains again nothing to do with religion. Basic human nature.

 

Once again you are out of touch and follow pseudo history rateher than thinking for yourself.

 

 

[someone]

15 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Because its NOT in the past. Caste-based discrimination is still there today. 

Irrelevant. "How about that murderer who got off free, why are you prosecuting me ?" is not a valid line of defense. Open up a thread about it if you feel like it and that issue will be addressed seperately. 

And plenty of western 'liberals' suffer from/over-compensate for white guilt. 

Hindus are not the only ones who have their flaws pointed out. Infact, amongst all these, Christians have the thickest skins - what they get made fun of in the US/western media is something most Hindus would have heart-attacks on. Muslims have the thinnest skins of all and Hindus are as usual, sandwiched between. 

Pffft. As an atheist, i will say this - christians are by far the most tolerant people of all religion when it comes to poking fun at their scriptures and holy figures.

 

You yourself probably haven't done any exploitation. Yet using own example, how proudly labeled yourself as a former brahmin and  felt free of guilt. That's what I mean with deep inferiority complex and being full of guilt for crimes you have not done. That's only present in Hindus who are fed with constant atrocity literature. Don't see the other religions apologetic or even recognizing their crimes.

 

And you calling christians as tolerant is what I mean by whitewashing, and erasing of history. They hide many genocides, invasions so now yourself are in awe of them. And I suggest you to do an experiment, go to a western country, talk about their human rights issues or even start critiquing Christianity, I can assure you that you won't go far. Whereas in our country, you will get support of eminent people, sponsors and can get invite to literature festivals etc when talking about our culture. Freedom isn't really equal between both sides.

 

And it's not tolerance what's needed but mutual respect and dharmic religions are based on that. If somebody comes up to you, and say I am gonna tolerant you, one would consider that as an insult. Same thing here.

Edited October 28, 2018 by someone

[coffee_rules]

Exhibit A:
 

 

'

 

[Singh bling]

20 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

Hindus are not the only ones who have their flaws pointed out. Infact, amongst all these, Christians have the thickest skins - what they get made fun of in the US/western media is something most Hindus would have heart-attacks on. Muslims have the thinnest skins of all and Hindus are as usual, sandwiched between. 

You have to understand situation of both religions. Christians in Europe or America hardly faced persecution from other religions from 500-700 years . On the other hand in India Hindu's particularly in North India Hindu's faced perscution from the hands of islam .Later on Christians also tried to convert them .If in West someone attacked Christianity , people were sure that the person is atheist ,anti religion . But in India Hindu's are not sure whether a person attacking Hinduism is really anti religion or he/she is just have his/her vested interest in defaming Hinduism.

[Muloghonto]

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

No one is justifying. Yeah you can give lectures on moral science about meritocracy etc all you want, I am just pointing out your myopic thinking like either ignorant  goras or evangelists with an agenda that everything was great with humanity and then Brahmins showed up and divided society and took advantage and oppressed people.

This is a strawman argument, since i never said that in the first place.

 

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Communities working for their own gain is not exclusive to India and Hinduism.

again, strawman argument. never said it was. doesn't mean hinduism should not be criticised or that the problem does not exist.

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Sarvejana Sukhinobhavantu meaning bliss and peace upon all is the basic essence of our religion and it is part of our Vedic chants. Brahmins have not changed any scriptures. As people have mentioned varnas and jaatis are not the same as caste system. However these were interpreted by foreign scholars over the years and was manipulated as per convinience.

does not change that people face discrimination, violence, etc. based on these silly self-serving inventions of the Brahmins. 

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

How come the benevolent Mughals and British allowed one caste to run riot by oppressing people?  

 

Massacre of scholars and destruction of places of worship and education was done by Islamic rulers. Are you one of those who think that they did this to save innocent oppressed backward castes? Clearly backward castes progressed under their rule didn’t it?

Again, a nonsensical argument. You simply cannot face the heat, can you ?

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

What is deemed as Forward and backward castes were a British classification to understand Indian society based on the political hierarchy of that time .

Does not change the fact that the backwards castes are backwards due to smriti justification within hinduism itself. 

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

However I am not that naive in thinking that Brahmins and other forward castes did not  oppress some people for their own gains again nothing to do with religion. Basic human nature.

It is to do with religion because it is justified via religion. Don't argue nonsense with a former brahmin. 

6 hours ago, Global.Baba said:

Once again you are out of touch and follow pseudo history rateher than thinking for yourself

 

LOL. New kid here wants to lecture me in history. I am thinking for myself, i am a former Brahmin and unlike you, i am not inventing nonsense to protect my kind. Brahmins are the singular reason for these oppressive policies existing in hinduism via scriptural basis, in the first place

[Muloghonto]

28 minutes ago, Singh bling said:

You have to understand situation of both religions. Christians in Europe or America hardly faced persecution from other religions from 500-700 years . On the other hand in India Hindu's particularly in North India Hindu's faced perscution from the hands of islam .Later on Christians also tried to convert them .If in West someone attacked Christianity , people were sure that the person is atheist ,anti religion . But in India Hindu's are not sure whether a person attacking Hinduism is really anti religion or he/she is just have his/her vested interest in Ydefaming Hinduism.

Yes, but they faced persecution from each other. There are many waves of christian migration into the US when they kept getting kicked out of Europe- this is why US is more conservative than Europe.

Valid point but a simple search here will show you that i am far more critical of Islam than Hinduism because it is a far more evil a religion. 

Edited October 28, 2018 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

5 hours ago, someone said:

You yourself probably haven't done any exploitation. Yet using own example, how proudly labeled yourself as a former brahmin and  felt free of guilt. That's what I mean with deep inferiority complex and being full of guilt for crimes you have not done. That's only present in Hindus who are fed with constant atrocity literature. Don't see the other religions apologetic or even recognizing their crimes.

There are plenty of atheists from other religions too. Infact, most de-converted atheists in the world are actually former christians. 

5 hours ago, someone said:

 

And you calling christians as tolerant is what I mean by whitewashing, and erasing of history. They hide many genocides, invasions so now yourself are in awe of them.

No, we are perfectly aware of Christian attrocities, even being committed today. Christians are more tolerant of criticism of their religion. Thats a fact. Here papers can and do print opinion pieces from readers (the page where readers get to write a short letter to the editor) calling Mary a cheater (blamed god for impregnating her when it was the milk-man), some even insinuate Jesus was gay, etc. 
Print those in India and start calling Krishna a philanderer or something and Hindus start rioting. 

5 hours ago, someone said:

And I suggest you to do an experiment, go to a western country, talk about their human rights issues or even start critiquing Christianity, I can assure you that you won't go far. Whereas in our country, you will get support of eminent people, sponsors and can get invite to literature festivals etc when talking about our culture. Freedom isn't really equal between both sides.

Um, critiquing christianity in the west is far, far more easily done than any other religion anywhere else.

5 hours ago, someone said:

 

And it's not tolerance what's needed but mutual respect and dharmic religions are based on that. If somebody comes up to you, and say I am gonna tolerant you, one would consider that as an insult. Same thing here.

No, because other religions fundamentally dont respect each other. Tolerance means 'i disagree with you but i respect your right to believe in the nonsense that you do'. Respect is earned, not given and religions have done jack $hit to earn it from the people of 21st century.

[Global.Baba]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

This is a strawman argument, since i never said that in the first place.

 

again, strawman argument. never said it was. doesn't mean hinduism should not be criticised or that the problem does not exist.

does not change that people face discrimination, violence, etc. based on these silly self-serving inventions of the Brahmins. 

Again, a nonsensical argument. You simply cannot face the heat, can you ?

Does not change the fact that the backwards castes are backwards due to smriti justification within hinduism itself. 

It is to do with religion because it is justified via religion. Don't argue nonsense with a former brahmin. 

LOL. New kid here wants to lecture me in history. I am thinking for myself, i am a former Brahmin and unlike you, i am not inventing nonsense to protect my kind. Brahmins are the singular reason for these oppressive policies existing in hinduism via scriptural basis, in the first place

Calling me a new kid on ICF or calling me a kid in general, either ways I wil take that as a compliment.

 

Rest of your post is pure fluff devoid of any facts like pretty much all of your posts on this topic so far. It just comes from a place of bias so no point going in circles as you seem to be someone who is not flexible enough and have preconceived notions which itself contradicts the essence  of Hinduism which encourages dialogue and debate. This proves you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

You calling yourself a former Brahmin repeatedly is that supposed to impress anyone?. Not once anyone who have been debating  with you have flaunted their caste, so you can be a judge of how that comes across lol.  

 

You agreed with me that scriptures have never been  tinkered with, As I said scriptures never talk about a caste as a basis of arranging population by hierarchy. So At this point, calling you naive would be a compliment, You have the audacity to call a religion and sect of people as close- minded when you have been pretty rigid and not even flexible with your views when you have no idea about either current affairs or for the matter of fact Hindu scriptures. Sorry you have lost all credibility on this topic. “This topic” being the keyword as I will be flexible enough and not as biased as you to hope you come through on other debates.

 

 

[Muloghonto]

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

Calling me a new kid on ICF or calling me a kid in general, either ways I wil take that as a compliment.

 

Rest of your post is pure fluff devoid of any facts like pretty much all of your posts on this topic so far. It just comes from a place of bias so no point going in circles as you seem to be someone who is not flexible enough and have preconceived notions which itself contradicts the essence  of Hinduism which encourages dialogue and debate. This proves you have no clue what you are talking about.

The bias is from you who wants no criticism of his religion. 
 

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

You calling yourself a former Brahmin repeatedly is that supposed to impress anyone?. Not once anyone who have been debating  with you have flaunted their caste, so you can be a judge of how that comes across lol.  

I am simply pointing it out, because i AM critical of Brahmins for creating the caste system and perpetuating it today. Not an outsider accusing it, i am somoene who's seen its inner workings. 

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

 

You agreed with me that scriptures have never been  tinkered with,

No, i didnt agree to any such thing. 

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

As I said scriptures never talk about a caste as a basis of arranging population by hierarchy.

Yes, it does. Some smriti literature does. 

6 minutes ago, Global.Baba said:

So At this point, calling you naive would be a compliment, You have the audacity to call a religion and sect of people as close- minded when you have been pretty rigid and not even flexible with your views when you have no idea about either current affairs or for the matter of fact Hindu scriptures.

I have a pretty good grasp on how India still suffers deeply from caste-based hate. You trying to whitewash this wont fly. 

You are just proving how touchy hindus will sweep its ills under the carpet to save face, which is why you bring in other religions and cannot debate the ills of hinduism on its own.