One out of Ashwin, Jadeja or Bhuvi is must for this team irrespective of condition

[Trichromatic]

Can't have 4-10 always. 

[rtmohanlal]

I am in for all 3..... openers can't bat cent percent.... last 4  are guaranteed to get not even 10 runs. That means tail should be filled with bowlers who can bat ...It's as simple as that ....

[sandeep]

Not to mention that all 3 of those offer a level of control with the ball that wild cards like Umesh, and even Shami can't be relied on for.

[Clarke]

When we play 4 bowlers, the first criterion is picking the best 4 bowlers. If these guys fit in it which often depends on conditions, that's great. Secondary skills can't be the primary factor in 7-4 combinations. 

 

The problem with this game was that they were 100/0 while we were 8/2. Besides our crap openers, did we play the best 4 based on conditions & form ? 

 

 

[CSK Fan]

Just now, Clarke said:

When we play 4 bowlers, the first criterion is picking the best 4 bowlers. If these guys fit in it which often depends on conditions, that's great. Secondary skills can't be the primary factor in 7-4 combinations. 

 

The problem with this game was that they were 100/0 while we were 8/2. Besides our crap openers, did we play the best 4 based on conditions & form ? 

 

 

Bhuvi is clearly better than Umesh at test bowling too so your point is moot. 

[Trichromatic]

12 minutes ago, Clarke said:

When we play 4 bowlers, the first criterion is picking the best 4 bowlers. If these guys fit in it which often depends on conditions, that's great. Secondary skills can't be the primary factor in 7-4 combinations. 

 

The problem with this game was that they were 100/0 while we were 8/2. Besides our crap openers, did we play the best 4 based on conditions & form ? 

 

 

Lyon picked 5, Vihari 2, 7 out of 20 wickets to spinners and we don't have specialist spinner. 

[Clarke]

36 minutes ago, Trichromatic said:

Lyon picked 5, Vihari 2, 7 out of 20 wickets to spinners and we don't have specialist spinner. 

That's what I was hinting at, what is the best combo for this wicket ? In hindsight, I would certainly play Jadeja ahead of Yadav. My point was in general, in case Umesh was an in form quick who looked like taking a fiver, I wouldn't necessarily pick Bhuvi over him. Same goes with Kuldeep, if he shows his limited overs prowess in tests, I'll pick him as primary spinner.

 

48 minutes ago, CSK Fan said:

Bhuvi is clearly better than Umesh at test bowling too so your point is moot. 

No moot on forum, Swach Bharat

Edited December 16, 2018 by Clarke

[Pollack]

I say play kuldeep rather.

[goose]

3 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

I am in for all 3..... openers can't bat cent percent.... last 4  are guaranteed to get not even 10 runs. That means tail should be filled with bowlers who can bat ...It's as simple as that ....

yeh I would have all three too

[goose]

3 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

I am in for all 3..... openers can't bat cent percent.... last 4  are guaranteed to get not even 10 runs. That means tail should be filled with bowlers who can bat ...It's as simple as that ....

yeh I would have all three too

[The Dark Horse]

Get a wicket already

[youngindia]

The frequency of lower order scoring is often overated. The lower order batsmen who can bat are not going to score at a frequency we can call reliable.

 

Even the very best batsmen pass 30 only around 40-55% of the time. A genuine allrounder like kapil or jadeja would be around 35-38%

 

Even if we had Jadeja, it could one of those 60% cases where he fails under 30.

 

Someone like Cummins can help on the odd match where there is a close matchup. Its a  lower percentage game to rely on a lower order bat especially overseas. In a close series like this one and England, their role  becomes visible. But not all series are hard fought and close.

 

The real problem is a unsettled lineup because of players who struggled(Rahul, Rahane and Vijay) and new players. Vihari got an excellent delivery unfortunately and Kohli got a dubious decision. Luck has not been on our side.

 

The series depends on the top order. The lower order can help here and there but it won't increase win percentage more than 1-3% generally.

 

As an approach, i would have reasonable bats at 8 and 9. but be aware success in the lower percentile. we cannot say for sure they would have helped on particular day and more often than not they don't.

Edited December 16, 2018 by youngindia
edt

[King Tendulkar]

Agree with OP and thinking same

 

We bemoan why we cant clean up opps tail.  But thats cos dont have a tail.  They have number 8s batting all way to number 10 i.e cummins, starc, rashid, curran, woakes etc etc  So we get frustrated. 

 

While we have 4 number 11s.  So fold quick.  Sad but maybe cant just pick best bowlers but need to think about handiness with bat.  BK should have played ahead of Umesh on batting front.  Shows also how invalubale Hardik is and why needed, play him instead of Umesh this game would do similar job with ball but his batting could be massive

 

Those close games away we had in last year, 30 to 40 more runs from 7 to 10 could have made all the difference.

 

Hopefully new gen bowlers will be more handy with bat.

[Austin 3:!6]

Why cant we post in match thread?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Trichromatic]

14 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Why cant we post in match thread?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

This is not related just to this match thread.

[Trichromatic]

14 minutes ago, Austin 3:!6 said:

Why cant we post in match thread?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

This is not related just to this match thread.

[Trichromatic]

21 minutes ago, King Tendulkar said:

Agree with OP and thinking same

 

We bemoan why we cant clean up opps tail.  But thats cos dont have a tail.  They have number 8s batting all way to number 10 i.e cummins, starc, rashid, curran, woakes etc etc  So we get frustrated. 

 

While we have 4 number 11s.  So fold quick.  Sad but maybe cant just pick best bowlers but need to think about handiness with bat.  BK should have played ahead of Umesh on batting front.  Shows also how invalubale Hardik is and why needed, play him instead of Umesh this game would do similar job with ball but his batting could be massive

 

Those close games away we had in last year, 30 to 40 more runs from 7 to 10 could have made all the difference.

 

Hopefully new gen bowlers will be more handy with bat.

Nope, that's not the case. We won't be picking one of these based only on batting and discarding a better bowler.

 

@Clarke Point is bowling contribution of 4th bowler who isn't one of these 3 isn't going to be better than them. At best 4th bowler is going to match potential of these 3 on good days. 

 

Another point is when you don't select any of these 3 then you are likely to end up with 2 free flow run giving bowlers which means you can't tie up batsmen consistently. When you have 3 frugal bowlers, then you are sure than there is pressure from at least one end. Ishant and Bumrah have sealed their spots as economical and wicket taking bowlers. 

 

We saw in last match when wickets weren't falling then still runs were difficult to get. When team goes for such bowling attack then 2 bowlers will go for 3.5-4.5 rpo leading to 40-50 runs extra in each inning. 

 

Now it has to be seen whether 4th option is good enough to take this risk. If we had another 25 avg pacer then sure batting contribution doesn't matter, pick 4 best bowlers. But when you have bowler who is averaging 40 away and another inconsistent bowler, then team has to go to one of the bowler who can bat too so that overall contribution is good enough.

 

 

[Trichromatic]

42 minutes ago, youngindia said:

The frequency of lower order scoring is often overated. The lower order batsmen who can bat are not going to score at a frequency we can call reliable.

 

Even the very best batsmen pass 30 only around 40-55% of the time. A genuine allrounder like kapil or jadeja would be around 35-38%

 

Even if we had Jadeja, it could one of those 60% cases where he fails under 30.

 

Someone like Cummins can help on the odd match where there is a close matchup. Its a  lower percentage game to rely on a lower order bat especially overseas. In a close series like this one and England, their role  becomes visible. But not all series are hard fought and close.

 

The real problem is a unsettled lineup because of players who struggled(Rahul, Rahane and Vijay) and new players. Vihari got an excellent delivery unfortunately and Kohli got a dubious decision. Luck has not been on our side.

 

The series depends on the top order. The lower order can help here and there but it won't increase win percentage more than 1-3% generally.

 

As an approach, i would have reasonable bats at 8 and 9. but be aware success in the lower percentile. we cannot say for sure they would have helped on particular day and more often than not they don't.

We don't need big runs from them, we need reliable 10 runs each from them which we aren't getting. Right now we are getting 10 runs from all 4 and falling short by 30 runs. If they get 40-50 runs for us then it won't be huge contribution, but it will be crucial for us.

[rtmohanlal]

as of now 7 pedestrians with the bat .Only Kohli,Rahane,Pujara & Pant have performed at the least some what to their expected levels.

[mishra]

Whatever icfers say. Gappu and Pappu will continue with chewtiyaap