India. Pakistan. Chennai. 1999

[zen]

4 minutes ago, sandeep said:

When a batsman gets out, it usually is because he's played a shot that was unnecessary, or executed incorrectly.  Shot selection is a subjective science, and should be evaluated in its context.  As an audience, we often lack the full set of information that went into the decision.

I saw the match live on TV and felt the same about the shot (and Sachin was my fav player at that time) 

Edited January 31, 2019 by zen

[sandeep]

7 minutes ago, Gollum said:

WTF was this shot? Did the bowler earn the wicket or am I supposed to not question Sachin's shot selection considering the match situation?

Same chavvani fan would be clapping appreciatively if the shot goes to the midwicket boundary.  Very few batsmen get out on a "good shot", its a rare thing. 

[Number]

14 minutes ago, Gollum said:

WTF was this shot? Did the bowler earn the wicket or am I supposed to not question Sachin's shot selection considering the match situation?

 He was playing Saqlain like that in whole innings.

Just before this shot, he stepped out and hit straight just over the Saqlain's head then a pull shot that too was catchable if there was a square leg. 

Probably knew it is difficult to see out Saqlain and the only way is to attack, this one just mistimed. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Number

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, sandeep said:

Same chavvani fan would be clapping appreciatively if the shot goes to the midwicket boundary.  Very few batsmen get out on a "good shot", its a rare thing. 

This was an unacceptable shot, not good or bad...downright criminal way to get out. It is perfectly fine if the bowler earns the wicket of a well set batsman in such a match situation but to throw it all away, nah that's a textbook choke. 

 

And this coming from a big Sachin fan. When his lack of mental toughness, choking tendency or underachievement is brought up it isn't exactly an insult. It is more of a 'what if' question, that he achieved so much despite these flaws is remarkable but when it comes to geniuses it is the shortcomings that stand out. In fact it may even come across as a tribute to his talent, many great sportspersons from multiple disciplines attract similar criticism. 

[DHONI_FANN]

SRT will remain greatest choker of all time. Had golden chance to make amends in 2007 and 2011 WC but ruined both of them. Most selfish batsman ever. 

[Gollum]

6 minutes ago, DHONI_FANN said:

SRT will remain greatest choker of all time. Had golden chance to make amends in 2007 and 2011 WC but ruined both of them. Most selfish batsman ever. 

Both bolded bits are inaccurate. He was a choker and he had selfish tendencies later in his career, no need to add extreme adverbs like more, most. But coming to the selfish part, for much of his career he was one of the most unselfish cricketers, he would do anything for his team without question and his ODI SR compared to peers is a valid indicator of his batting methodology. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Gollum

[DHONI_FANN]

3 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Both bolded bits are inaccurate. He was a choker and he had selfish tendencies later in his career. But coming to the selfish part, for much of his career he was one of the most unselfish cricketers, he would do anything for his team without question and his ODI SR compared to peers is a valid proof of his batting methodology. 

Yeah, like his ATG great knock against mighty Bangladesh in quest of his 100th 100. This midget always played to boost up his record and century count AFAIK

[Gollum]

1 minute ago, DHONI_FANN said:

Yeah, like his ATG great knock against mighty Bangladesh in quest of his 100th 100. This midget always played to boost up his record and century count AFAIK

That is why I said 'later in his career'.

 

Sachin post 2011 WC and in the quest of 100th 100 was a far cry from the great player we all fell in love with. All batsmen are inherently selfish, their job demands a certain selfish trait, very very few don't give a * about personal milestones like Raina. 

 

[DHONI_FANN]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

That is why I said 'later in his career'.

 

Sachin post 2011 WC and in the quest of 100th 100 was a far cry from the great player we all fell in love with. All batsmen are inherently selfish, their job demands a certain selfish trait, very very few don't give a * about personal milestones like Raina. 

 

That os coz midget SRT had to come as an opener or 1 down for the most of his career whereas Raina had to come at 6.raina  had no option but to slog wheras midget SRT played to increase his century count jeopardising team's interest

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

he had selfish tendencies later in his career

I will agree with this.  There was a time in the 2000s, when Tendy decided to try and push his test average up into the 60s.  That entire 194* fiasco was because of this.  The tentativeness in the face of his 100th 100 was another symptom of this.  Cricket karma got to him, and he ended up pushing his average lower than where it probably would have been.  

 

The one time I got to watch him live at the stadium, he was batting like a dream at until he crossed 75.  And then he tightened up because it would have been his 100th 100, and started being over defensive.  Ended up getting out to Swann.  

 

Tendy had his share of flaws, especially mental ones.  But the Chennai 4th innings is not an instance of flaws.  

[Gollum]

10 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I will agree with this.  There was a time in the 2000s, when Tendy decided to try and push his test average up into the 60s.  That entire 194* fiasco was because of this.  The tentativeness in the face of his 100th 100 was another symptom of this.  Cricket karma got to him, and he ended up pushing his average lower than where it probably would have been.  

 

The one time I got to watch him live at the stadium, he was batting like a dream at until he crossed 75.  And then he tightened up because it would have been his 100th 100, and started being over defensive.  Ended up getting out to Swann.  

 

Tendy had his share of flaws, especially mental ones.  But the Chennai 4th innings is not an instance of flaws.  

It was Bresnan, LBW with ball projected to kiss the outside of leg stump. 

[sandeep]

1 minute ago, Gollum said:

It was Bresnan, LBW with ball projected to kiss the outside of leg stump. 

yes you are right, but Swann was troubling him consistently when he was in his 80s, looked vulnerable AF, in stark contrast to the rest of his innings.  Entire stadium was buzzing almost willing him to get his 100, but he "choked". 

Edited January 31, 2019 by sandeep

[MechEng]

8 minutes ago, sandeep said:

I will agree with this.  There was a time in the 2000s, when Tendy decided to try and push his test average up into the 60s.  That entire 194* fiasco was because of this.  The tentativeness in the face of his 100th 100 was another symptom of this.  Cricket karma got to him, and he ended up pushing his average lower than where it probably would have been.  

 

The one time I got to watch him live at the stadium, he was batting like a dream at until he crossed 75.  And then he tightened up because it would have been his 100th 100, and started being over defensive.  Ended up getting out to Swann.  

 

Tendy had his share of flaws, especially mental ones.  But the Chennai 4th innings is not an instance of flaws.  

I don't understsnd why we expect cricketers to be moral pillars or something. It's like calling Ambani selfish because he expects profit from his business. Cricketers have ambitions and if they play for records there is nothing harm actually.

 

Calling Dravid selfless is misleading. Dravid plays risk free cricket which is why he has more winning knocks in tests, but in ODIs it's the opposite. I remember 2009 Champion's Trophy against Pakistan where Dravid made 70 odd but was struggling big time hitting fours, forget sixes. In 2003 World Cup too Dravid played within his shell, had it not been for Sachin's attacking shots early Pakistan would have easily got us all out for 220 something. If Dravid cannot take risks in ODIs, then can we call him selfsih here too?

[bahubali]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

Sachin choked, plain and simple. Kapil won us the 1981 MCG test with a serious shin injury which later became a stress fracture, so serious was the pain that in the 4th innings he came to bowl after all the others...target was a mere 140. Kumble bowled with a fractured jaw, Laxman won us the Mohali test with serious back spasms, UV played a big role in the 2011 WC with a golf ball sized tumor, Ashwin played the 2017 Australia series despite sports hernia pain, Clarke played a number of great knocks on days he would take 3 hours just to get off the bed, Arjuna defeated us with a fractured hand, Pataudi and Chandra played their whole lives handicapped. Amarnath took on the WI quicks with a broken collar bone, bruised jaw, broken ribs, concussion and knocked off teeth .

 

The excuses Sachin's bhakts make are cringe worthy. His failure in crunch moments are well documented. A mental midget his whole life who could never take charge and lead his troops, always playing second fiddle or relying on others to get the team wins. Great great batsman from technical/artistic standpoint but lacked guts, character, bloody mindedness. His failure in the Chennai test best exemplifies his weak mental strength, no amount of justifications or fairy-tale stories will convince me otherwise. Elite athletes at that level are expected to break the pain barrier. 

Alisa Lagta hai Rasgulla ki aatma Aapke Andar as gayi ho while you were posting this.

[Gollum]

3 minutes ago, bahubali said:

Alisa Lagta hai Rasgulla ki aatma Aapke Andar as gayi ho while you were posting this.

Nah he's too crude, spazzy, unsophisticated and gives one line comments. 

Edited January 31, 2019 by Gollum

[zen]

9 minutes ago, MechEng said:

I don't understsnd why we expect cricketers to be moral pillars or something. It's like calling Ambani selfish because he expects profit from his business. Cricketers have ambitions and if they play for records there is nothing harm actually.

 

Calling Dravid selfless is misleading. Dravid plays risk free cricket which is why he has more winning knocks in tests, but in ODIs it's the opposite. I remember 2009 Champion's Trophy against Pakistan where Dravid made 70 odd but was struggling big time hitting fours, forget sixes. In 2003 World Cup too Dravid played within his shell, had it not been for Sachin's attacking shots early Pakistan would have easily got us all out for 220 something. If Dravid cannot take risks in ODIs, then can we call him selfsih here too?

After watching these guys bat, there is a reason why Sehwag, who brought a different approach, became my fav Ind batsman from the 2000s onwards era, and Lara continues to awe me as a test batsman 

[sandeep]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

After watching these guys bat, there is a reason why Sehwag, who brought a different approach, became my fav Ind batsman from the 2000s onwards era, and Lara continues to awe me as a test batsman 

Sehwag revolutionized test match batting.  He had his technical flaws, but one of the most mentally strong batsmen around.  

 

Every ball was must-watch when he was at the crease.  

[zen]

Just now, sandeep said:

Sehwag revolutionized test match batting.  He had his technical flaws, but one of the most mentally strong batsmen around.  

 

Every ball was must-watch when he was at the crease.  

Many teams had a mental hold on us so helped us to break that grip as well .... Beat Pak in Pak. SL had tormented us in ODIs in mid to late 90s and even piled that huge score, so good to see him take their bowlers to cleaners in tests .... helped us to claw back the mental edge in the series vs SA in 2008 with a triple 100 at Chennai when we lost the first test badly  

[Adi BB]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

WTF was this shot? Did the bowler earn the wicket or am I supposed to not question Sachin's shot selection considering the match situation?

He hit saqi for boundaries and played similar shots throughout the innings ,shot was on .

Thing is,its rather the Pakistan bowlers who choked ,271 was a massive target on that pitch and they should have won comfortably but seeing how close we went and a couple of bad decisions given against us ,I was absolutely gutted after the last wkt fell .

India should have won that series 2-0 

[Adi BB]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

Many teams had a mental hold on us so helped us to break that grip as well .... Beat Pak in Pak. SL had tormented us in ODIs in mid to late 90s and even piled that huge score, so good to see him take their bowlers to cleaners in tests .... helped us to claw back the mental edge in the series vs SA in 2008 with a triple 100 at Chennai when we lost the first test badly  

Triple ton was the first test only but without his triple ton ,India would have struggled to get to saf 560 odd total